It's been an interesting couple of years watching SAR. When we signed him, I think most people were excited, especially after NJ was going to sign him 1st until he failed their physical. It seemed like we got him at a bargain contract. For about 5 years, he was averaging about 20 points and 9 rebounds. Now he's 30 years old and on the downside of his career. Remembering the playoff series versus SA 2 years ago, I thought SAR played well against Tim Duncan in a smallish lineup. I've always thought that SAR would be a much better undersized center in a small-ball type of lineup than an undersized PF in a traditional lineup. This is a guy who used to play SF on a consistent basis but those days are gone. I still think he could put up good numbers, in a reserve role, playing mostly the 5-spot against most of the west teams. He may not rebound as well as you would like but if he came off the bench as the main low-post option at center, he could produce. He absolutely can score still. Defense is another story.
SAR value
- Thread starter dude12
- Start date
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
1) I was not excited -- I was pissed (and on record for being so).
2) That said, I never expected to be THIS right. When he came I knew he was a one dimesnsional softish guy who did not make you win. That's why I was mad. He was the Peja of PFs. And fading. And what we needed was a beast in there next to Brad. But I still at the time cautioned people, primarily Peja fanatics, that SAR was every bit as established an NBA scorer as Peja was, and it would not surprise me to see him lead the team in scoring. Er...nope. Me being a pie in the sky optimist once again apparently.
3) which brings us to today. SAR is a bencher. He has slowed way down. He moves painfully, like an old Patrick Ewing. The knees look to be a problem, just as New Jersey predicted they would be. He still has those professional scoring moves, but that's literally ALL he brings to the table at this point. I was not in favor of getting him, but I honestly never thought his deceline would be this steep.
4) PFs who do not defend, rebound, blocks shots are a joke. Now move those PF, who are really just blopwn up SFs, over to center, and you have a disaster. So far as I know Jerry Reynolds is the only one who thinks SAR at center is anything but a very bad idea. Last year his per48 +/- at center was -6.0 (that's not good -- 82games.com). His value, what there is of it, is as a designated scoring 6th man at PF. He cannot physically compete at center, has lost all of his quickness to pay SF. So bring him in, throw him the ball, let him get a few shots off, take him out before the other team figures out they've got a green light to pummel us inside. But frankly I'd far FAR ratehr watch Hawes and Justin get those minutes.
5) When you started this thread I thought you might be referring to his speculative value as a trade piece. What can be concluded from the fact that he is still on the roster is that either his value ain't what we hoped it was, and he's as unmoveable as the rest, or that Geoff, having dumped the long term contract on him only two years ago, is still in the throes of manlove for another of his softy one dimensional scorers.
2) That said, I never expected to be THIS right. When he came I knew he was a one dimesnsional softish guy who did not make you win. That's why I was mad. He was the Peja of PFs. And fading. And what we needed was a beast in there next to Brad. But I still at the time cautioned people, primarily Peja fanatics, that SAR was every bit as established an NBA scorer as Peja was, and it would not surprise me to see him lead the team in scoring. Er...nope. Me being a pie in the sky optimist once again apparently.
3) which brings us to today. SAR is a bencher. He has slowed way down. He moves painfully, like an old Patrick Ewing. The knees look to be a problem, just as New Jersey predicted they would be. He still has those professional scoring moves, but that's literally ALL he brings to the table at this point. I was not in favor of getting him, but I honestly never thought his deceline would be this steep.
4) PFs who do not defend, rebound, blocks shots are a joke. Now move those PF, who are really just blopwn up SFs, over to center, and you have a disaster. So far as I know Jerry Reynolds is the only one who thinks SAR at center is anything but a very bad idea. Last year his per48 +/- at center was -6.0 (that's not good -- 82games.com). His value, what there is of it, is as a designated scoring 6th man at PF. He cannot physically compete at center, has lost all of his quickness to pay SF. So bring him in, throw him the ball, let him get a few shots off, take him out before the other team figures out they've got a green light to pummel us inside. But frankly I'd far FAR ratehr watch Hawes and Justin get those minutes.
5) When you started this thread I thought you might be referring to his speculative value as a trade piece. What can be concluded from the fact that he is still on the roster is that either his value ain't what we hoped it was, and he's as unmoveable as the rest, or that Geoff, having dumped the long term contract on him only two years ago, is still in the throes of manlove for another of his softy one dimensional scorers.
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supamari0
Bench
I argued with people for a while on here about this one. The dude is an identical clone to this guy, who also put up great numbers for a long time but was always a loser. Oh and they both went to exactly 1 all star game.
I remember talking to people back when Sacto signed him and everyone agreed that the New Jersey rejection should have been evidence enough that he wasn't worth it. (at the time and even now NJ really really needed a PF, so if they were willing to reject him, it meant something)
I remember talking to people back when Sacto signed him and everyone agreed that the New Jersey rejection should have been evidence enough that he wasn't worth it. (at the time and even now NJ really really needed a PF, so if they were willing to reject him, it meant something)
LPKingsFan
All-Star
I was against the signing too, but I wanted us to sign Stromile Swift instead 
Who knows, with Brand going down, maybe we can pawn him off on the Clips for Cassell's expiring. With the Bulls signing Joe Smith, the deal for Duhon/filler doesn't seem like it has much of a chance, and I doubt NJ has any more interest since their concerns over his knee seem to be validated.
The thing that gets me is that all of our front office's activity of late has literally been guys falling into our laps. SAR's botched signing with the Nets opened the way for GP opening the door. Artest had to kill any leverage by demanding out from Indy, and our season had to hit the skids before the deal for Peja went down. Salmons backed out of a deal with Toronto before we went after him, he made no moves on draft night and just let the chips fall where they may with the 10th pick.
I'd really like to see some aggressiveness, some assertiveness, a sign of life from our front office. Something to show us that they're at least heading in some direction. That's what has really been bugging me, and it's been gnawing there ever since we brought SAR on board.
[end rant]
Who knows, with Brand going down, maybe we can pawn him off on the Clips for Cassell's expiring. With the Bulls signing Joe Smith, the deal for Duhon/filler doesn't seem like it has much of a chance, and I doubt NJ has any more interest since their concerns over his knee seem to be validated.
The thing that gets me is that all of our front office's activity of late has literally been guys falling into our laps. SAR's botched signing with the Nets opened the way for GP opening the door. Artest had to kill any leverage by demanding out from Indy, and our season had to hit the skids before the deal for Peja went down. Salmons backed out of a deal with Toronto before we went after him, he made no moves on draft night and just let the chips fall where they may with the 10th pick.
I'd really like to see some aggressiveness, some assertiveness, a sign of life from our front office. Something to show us that they're at least heading in some direction. That's what has really been bugging me, and it's been gnawing there ever since we brought SAR on board.
[end rant]
CruzDude
Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
Hold on to your tea cups ladies and lets see what comes of Watkins and Williams. Both are true PF who can play the middle when needed and are 10/10 guys with Watkins able to score 10-20 any night with his mid-range jumper and fade away.
SAR is an over-the-hill tweener 5-4-3 who doesn't fit any three now. He does have 10 years experience so as a limited bench guy to mentor W&W that may be his real value. I don't see KT mentoring anyone. Maybe........ ahhh no..... hmmmmmm, could SAR's knees be bad enough to retire?? Aaaah, too much to ask. Same for KT.
SAR is an over-the-hill tweener 5-4-3 who doesn't fit any three now. He does have 10 years experience so as a limited bench guy to mentor W&W that may be his real value. I don't see KT mentoring anyone. Maybe........ ahhh no..... hmmmmmm, could SAR's knees be bad enough to retire?? Aaaah, too much to ask. Same for KT.
Entity
Hall of Famer
.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
I think was worth it and is worth. Just maybe not for us.
hoops4kings
Bench
In hindsight, the Webber deal sucked.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I doubt they'd go for the reteaming of the Randolph/Shareef duo at PF (did it at Portland too), and they are starting to develop a unique problem -- too many post players, even without Reef.
But you did remind me of a critical little factoid in those new Artest rumors: Jones and Dickau become tradeable as enders at the end of the month I believe. That alone could explain a delay if Geoff were holding out for those enders instead of Rose.
(and to speculate further -- since Jones and Dickau are both PGs, and we would be rumored to get another PG (Robinson or Collins) as well as Balkman/Lee and the #1...means would leave Zeke with just Marbury and either Robinson or Collins, as well as Crawford swinging over). Also means that we would be taking on three PG contracts. Could explian no signing of guys like Wilks. Could also pave the way for a followup Bibby deal since we would be awash in PGs at that point.)
GoGoGadget
All-Star
In hindsight?
6th
Homer Fan Since 1985
Yeah! That was my first thought. It sucked at the time and it has sucked ever since.
BawLa
Starter
The 28th I believe. I was just thinking that if they want Artest so bad, then we should try and do some pre-spring-cleaning at the same time if you know what I mean. Rose's contract is the same length as Artest's, so that isn't really the main point of doing it. Turning SAR's 3 year contract into one ender (Jones), one prospect (Lee/Balkman) and a #1 pick while getting most of that money to come off the books after the season would be the main point. New York would be turning Rose into SAR and letting go of a couple prospects + an ender to get "their guy" in Artest.
But as you say, they are pretty backed up with post presence, and trying to push SAR on them might blow our chance to get the base deal done. Either way, if we move Artest to New York, we need those enders and therefore should wait 'till the end of the month. We should also be careful about how many bodies we bring back in a trade. I would cut Jones after we made a trade just so we could keep a prospect like Shakur around...it's not like Jones would be part of the future anyway, so you pay him to go away and he can go to whatever team he wants.
KingsInBrazil
G-League
Whos this Watkins dude that some ppl keep talking about him like he'll be in our team for the upcoming season and I never saw any news about his signing and can't see him in our roster (nba.com/kings/roster)...
allrightythen
Starter
Brick is this you being optomistic about possible future deals? I thought you had learned your lesson?
I really like the idea of getting some youth and enders from NY for Artest and maybe trade some excess baggage while were at it (Rose for KT?). I know it seems lateral, but Rose seems to me such a better and more willing bench player than KT, and no attitude and all.That said was Zeke serious about not willing to put Lee/Balkman in any deal for Artest or was he just saying that because the deal wasn't gonna happen at the time so people would stop talking about it?
1) I was not excited -- I was pissed (and on record for being so).
2) That said, I never expected to be THIS right. When he came I knew he was a one dimesnsional softish guy who did not make you win. That's why I was mad. He was the Peja of PFs. And fading. And what we needed was a beast in there next to Brad. But I still at the time cautioned people, primarily Peja fanatics, that SAR was every bit as established an NBA scorer as Peja was, and it would not surprise me to see him lead the team in scoring. Er...nope. Me being a pie in the sky optimist once again apparently.
3) which brings us to today. SAR is a bencher. He has slowed way down. He moves painfully, like an old Patrick Ewing. The knees look to be a problem, just as New Jersey predicted they would be. He still has those professional scoring moves, but that's literally ALL he brings to the table at this point. I was not in favor of getting him, but I honestly never thought his deceline would be this steep.
4) PFs who do not defend, rebound, blocks shots are a joke. Now move those PF, who are really just blopwn up SFs, over to center, and you have a disaster. So far as I know Jerry Reynolds is the only one who thinks SAR at center is anything but a very bad idea. Last year his per48 +/- at center was -6.0 (that's not good -- 82games.com). His value, what there is of it, is as a designated scoring 6th man at PF. He cannot physically compete at center, has lost all of his quickness to pay SF. So bring him in, throw him the ball, let him get a few shots off, take him out before the other team figures out they've got a green light to pummel us inside. But frankly I'd far FAR ratehr watch Hawes and Justin get those minutes.
5) When you started this thread I thought you might be referring to his speculative value as a trade piece. What can be concluded from the fact that he is still on the roster is that either his value ain't what we hoped it was, and he's as unmoveable as the rest, or that Geoff, having dumped the long term contract on him only two years ago, is still in the throes of manlove for another of his softy one dimensional scorers.
Sure, those are all of SAR's negatives, but in today's NBA, his recent production has kept pace with his contract. We didn't overpay him when he signed, and he's not being overpaid now. Look at some of the crap deals which have been signed this year and compare them to the deal that SAR has. You won't find much, if any, of a difference.
S
sactownfan
Guest
NJ still wanted SAR they just slowed down the signing of him to futher review his med history. SAR felt disrespected and then went on to sign with the Kings. we had been in the mix for him the whole time and treated him good when he came out here. and told him we didnt care about the history.
kingsfan101
Starter
1) I was not excited -- I was pissed (and on record for being so).
2) That said, I never expected to be THIS right. When he came I knew he was a one dimesnsional softish guy who did not make you win. That's why I was mad. He was the Peja of PFs. And fading. And what we needed was a beast in there next to Brad. But I still at the time cautioned people, primarily Peja fanatics, that SAR was every bit as established an NBA scorer as Peja was, and it would not surprise me to see him lead the team in scoring. Er...nope. Me being a pie in the sky optimist once again apparently.
3) which brings us to today. SAR is a bencher. He has slowed way down. He moves painfully, like an old Patrick Ewing. The knees look to be a problem, just as New Jersey predicted they would be. He still has those professional scoring moves, but that's literally ALL he brings to the table at this point. I was not in favor of getting him, but I honestly never thought his deceline would be this steep.
4) PFs who do not defend, rebound, blocks shots are a joke. Now move those PF, who are really just blopwn up SFs, over to center, and you have a disaster. So far as I know Jerry Reynolds is the only one who thinks SAR at center is anything but a very bad idea. Last year his per48 +/- at center was -6.0 (that's not good -- 82games.com). His value, what there is of it, is as a designated scoring 6th man at PF. He cannot physically compete at center, has lost all of his quickness to pay SF. So bring him in, throw him the ball, let him get a few shots off, take him out before the other team figures out they've got a green light to pummel us inside. But frankly I'd far FAR ratehr watch Hawes and Justin get those minutes.
5) When you started this thread I thought you might be referring to his speculative value as a trade piece. What can be concluded from the fact that he is still on the roster is that either his value ain't what we hoped it was, and he's as unmoveable as the rest, or that Geoff, having dumped the long term contract on him only two years ago, is still in the throes of manlove for another of his softy one dimensional scorers.
A bunch of random thoughts. Not entirely related, and no particular order.
- The year SAR was signed, there was an article on ESPN (by Hollinger I think), that rated the FAs signed that year. SAR was amongst the highest rated. You don't have to like ESPN or Hollinger to accept that a lot of FA signings turn out bad. Usually guys get overpaid, and teams (and fans) complain later.
- A similar article last year rated Salmons as a decent signing. Not great, but compared to lot of others, decent.
- This is something we should keep in mind when we finally clear some cap space 2-3 years from now. We just might end up overpaying for some middling FA. Trying to get some assets from a team trying to escape LT might be a better option (like Sonics did with Suns).
- Over the years, Geoff has gotten a lot of credit for building the team (quite rightly, though lately he has been losing a lot of goodwill). Guess a lot of that should be directed at Rick though. He was consistently able to get great performances out of everyone. So, Geoff could pick up a journeyman like Jim Jackson, who was out of NBA at that time, and Rick turned him into a hot commodity. SAR had a good first year with him, despite playing good part of the season with a shut jaw, and Bonzi had a monster playoff. This year was a sudden down year for a number of players. Brad, Mike, Reef. Even KT was better under Rick than under Muss.
- This might turn out to be the most harmful consequence of letting Rick go. Had these guys played at the same level they did with Rick, they would have had decent trade value, and rebuilding the team might have been easier.
The only time I enjoyed watching 'Reef play was in the series against the Spurs, because Brad Miller and Kenny Thomas were virtually inexistent offensively and otherwise in the entire series. 'Reef went after Duncan, got him in foul trouble, and actually did okay on the boards for a couple-three games.
I agree with kingsfan101 on that, though. Rick was able to control and boost the performances of malcontents like Bonzi and Artest, all the while keeping Mike and 'Reef productive. I still don't understand what the hell happened to Brad Miller, but it started in that San Antonio series in '06. He went from All-Star to all puff overnight. And I'm not entirely convinced that Rick Adelman's departure didn't hasten that transition.
I agree with kingsfan101 on that, though. Rick was able to control and boost the performances of malcontents like Bonzi and Artest, all the while keeping Mike and 'Reef productive. I still don't understand what the hell happened to Brad Miller, but it started in that San Antonio series in '06. He went from All-Star to all puff overnight. And I'm not entirely convinced that Rick Adelman's departure didn't hasten that transition.
I just don't agree that Justin Williams is a 30+ minute a game player. He would be a great backup 4/5 if we had a starting-caliber power forward and center, but I don't think he's a starter.
SAR shouldn't be playing more than 15 minutes a game, and KT shouldn't be playing at all. But Justin Williams playing 30 minutes a game is a testament to how sorry our team is right now. Unless Musselman was right and he's going to win an MVP one day.
I strongly suspect Mikki Moore will be getting a decent number of minutes at the 4.
I suspect the same - we have the worst kind of log-jam for our bigs - I don't think any of them is a quality NBA starter, yet we have too many of them!
BawLa
Starter
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Me too. Personally, the only back-to-the basket player I want to see on the floor next year is Hawes. SAR can sit on the bench, or sub if there are injuries. At least with Miki, he can open the floor for cutters. And if Brad plays like Brad has for the last two years, Miki can start and finish games as far as I am concerned.
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