SAR coming to the Kings discussion (merged)

[Bricklayer]

First off, I'm not sure where you're getting your height numbers, but Ben Wallace is 6'9".

Second of all, who were those big offensive scoring options that SAR was deferring to in Portland? The fact is that he just wasn't as effective at the small forward position. And of course he took less shots -- he's not an outside shooter, he's not a slasher. How was he going to get his shots on the perimeter? Small forwards don't have as many post-up opportunities as power forwards, especially when the team already has a power forward.

You still haven't told me how Shareef Abdur-Rahim's game makes him more suited for the small forward position. And you can't! Because he's a post-up power forward, and a good on at that, and he's (hopefully) going to finally give the Kings the low post threat they haven't had since Webber's injury. But I suppose he's better suited out on the perimeter, where he can... well.... not as much.

Man, you are so full of it on the SAR as SF front its not even funny. Stuck in some cute litte Pejaesque world where every SF shoots threes because, well, Peja does. Did you EVEN watch SAR play before two years ago?

1) SAR averaged more points per game as a SF, and set hsi career high at that position
2) SAR set his career high in rebonding as a SF
3) SAR used to block shots a a decent level as a SF
4) and most of all, SAR used to have respect and even a little fear as the biggest, most athletic, post-up three in the game. $14.6mil of respect. Now he's struggling to get more than the MLE as a soft 4.

As a SF, SAR gets to physically dominate. He can post all the pansies and blown up OGs populating that position, jump over them, out muscle them. His strength on their weakness. Turn it around and put him at PF and now HE's the weak one, trying to go strength on strength against bigger stronger players used to defending post players of his size. He can't post as well, he can't muscle them up. And he provides none of the toughness and intimidation on defense that his peers at that position do. So he becomes mediocre. Going back to the last year that a team actually let him play full time PF for an entire season (02-03) he finished 71st amongst PFs in per 48 rebounding. He finished 98th amongst PFs in per 48 shotblocking. he probably finished dead last in toughness. His game is post up SF (and yes, such a thing is allowed). He displays almost none of the traits that you traditionally look for from PFs. Not tough. Not intimidating. Doesn't block shots. Mediocre to weak rebounder at that position. He's a SF in his heart, or lack thereof. Talented, but a natural born softie.

 

[bibbyweb]

Shareef Abdur-Rahim is expected to sign a free agent contract with the Kings in the coming days.
-- Hoopsworld.com

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/scorecard/08/10/truth.rumors.nba/index.html

 

[Padrino]

Man, you are so full of it on the SAR as SF front its not even funny. Stuck in some cute litte Pejaesque world where every SF shoots threes because, well, Peja does. Did you EVEN watch SAR play before two years ago?

1) SAR averaged more points per game as a SF, and set hsi career high at that position
2) SAR set his career high in rebonding as a SF
3) SAR used to block shots a a decent level as a SF
4) and most of all, SAR used to have respect and even a little fear as the biggest, most athletic, post-up three in the game. $14.6mil of respect. Now he's struggling to get more than the MLE as a soft 4.

As a SF, SAR gets to physically dominate. He can post all the pansies and blown up OGs populating that position, jump over them, out muscle them. His strength on their weakness. Turn it around and put him at PF and now HE's the weak one, trying to go strength on strength against bigger stronger players used to defending post players of his size. He can't post as well, he can't muscle them up. And he provides none of the toughness and intimidation on defense that his peers at that position do. So he becomes mediocre. Going back to the last year that a team actually let him play full time PF for an entire season (02-03) he finished 71st amongst PFs in per 48 rebounding. He finished 98th amongst PFs in per 48 shotblocking. he probably finished dead last in toughness. His game is post up SF (and yes, such a thing is allowed). He displays almost none of the traits that you traditionally look for from PFs. Not tough. Not intimidating. Doesn't block shots. Mediocre to weak rebounder at that position. He's a SF in his heart, or lack thereof. Talented, but a natural born softie.

peja's still got solid trade value. i wouldnt mind at all if we shifted SAR over to starting SF and put together a peja/thomas and/or williamson package that we could trade for a good PF.

 

[Entity]

He maybe all that but he is still better than KT at PF. No matter how good he was at SF or how bad he is at PF. Face it Brickie if we sign him he will be our starting PF. Also the best starting PF we can get without trading one of the so called core.

 

[Kev.in]

Not that much better than KT? You have got to be kidding. Don't get me wrong, SAR is no first team all NBA player, but he's head and shoulders better than KT.

We'll just have to wait and see if that's the case, I guess.

 

[Bricklayer]

You can get away with a soft PF in the East? Huh, tell that to Jermaine O'Neil, Dwight Howard, Emeka Okafor and Chris Bosh. And to Tim Duncan and Amare Stoudamire as well, since it's not as if an Eastern PF doesn't have to face them.

And once again I am on the fence whether you are being disingenuous or actually don't realize what you are saying: Of all of those players, only Jermaine was actually IN the East (or the league) the last time Shareef played PF in Atlanta. The East had NOBODY.

PFs in the EAST Last time Reef played PF in Atlanta for a full season (02-03):

Kenyon Martin
Van Horn/Coleman (no starter)
Antoine Walker (soft)
Garrity/DeClerq/Kemp (no starter)
O. Harrington/QWeatherspoon (no starter)
K. Brown/Laettner (no starter)
Malik Allen (scrub)
Clifford Robinson (old)
Jermaine O'Neal
P.J. Brown (old)
Anthony Mason (old)
Fizer/Marshall/Chandler (no starter)
Shareef Abdur-Rahim
J. Williams/J. McCoy/M. Bradley (no starter)
Carlos Boozer (rookie)

 

[Entity]

He also played about 20 games that year vs. western Conference teams.

 

[SlimKid15]

peja's still got solid trade value. i wouldnt mind at all if we shifted SAR over to starting SF and put together a peja/thomas and/or williamson package that we could trade for a good PF.

Yeah i like that idea too. We could get something decent with that.

 

[PixelPusher]

peja's still got solid trade value. i wouldnt mind at all if we shifted SAR over to starting SF and put together a peja/thomas and/or williamson package that we could trade for a good PF.

Who would qualify as a "Good PF" that we could get with Peja/thom-or-will?

 

[BigWaxer]

Who says we don't have a superstar? Last time I checked in 2004 Peja was a contender for MVP. Mike, Bonzi, Peja, SAR and Miller is a damn good starting line up, maybe in the top 5. Not to mention NONE of those starters (well, maybe Peja) are in their prime. While I agree with your that we need someone better than SAR, with him I still think we have a legit shot at a ring.

Please dont tell me you think PEJA is or could be a superstar in NBA terms? Superstars in the NBA sense gets it done of both ends of the floor. Tell me who on our team does that...

Superstars = SHAQ, KOBE, KG, Duncan, Iverson... Are you saying Peja should be mentioned in that group?

 

[funkykingston]

Well, I'm still firmly aboard the "bring in SAR and deal Peja for Tyson Chandler" bandwagon.

 

[ParniValjak]

Well, I'm still firmly aboard the "bring in SAR and deal Peja for Tyson Chandler" bandwagon.

Be prepared to be disappointed

 

[Gary]

Peja showed signs of becoming a superstar two years ago, but declined a bit last year. Since it is his contract year, look for him to have a great year again, and the superstar talks to be back.

 

[ParniValjak]

I am a Peja fan but he will NEVER be a superstar. He just doesn't have the make up of one when to comes to what he shown on the court.

Superstars are leaders. Peja never has been and never will be a leader.

 

[SlimKid15]

Well, I'm still firmly aboard the "bring in SAR and deal Peja for Tyson Chandler" bandwagon.

Yeah me too.

 

[Smart_guy3]

Peja for Tyson chandler? were do I sign?

 

[Bricklayer]

Peja showed signs of becoming a superstar two years ago, but declined a bit last year. Since it is his contract year, look for him to have a great year again, and the superstar talks to be back.

Only under the most messed up defintion of "superstar". As in, scoring alone is enough. It never has been, and never will be. When Glen Rice popped up to 26ppg, he wasn't a superstar either. And when you get shut down by Trenton Hassel, DURING your best season, that's pretty much a lifetime ban from superstardom. Superstars are multifaceted, they create for themselves and teammates, they lead. Peja is none of those things. He's got his little game, its largely the same one he had 5 years ago, and if you get him more open looks he'll score more points. That's not a superstar. That's a very good shooter.

And in any case, I don't know if people realize the implications of picking up SAR, but the shots are NOT going to be there for Peja to score at that rate again. I've mentioned before that there will be about 12-14 shots per starter, and they ALL want to shoot (well except Brad who could get lost a bit).

 

[Kev.in]

The problem is, Chicago already has Deng and Nocioni. If they trade Chandler for another small forward, they create a hole up front and a logjam at small forward. The time to trade for Chandler has passed. If there ever was a chance to make it happen, it was two seasons ago when his back was acting up and he missed like half the season. Now he's shown to be too good as rebounder/defender who can score a little off hustle and heart for him to be traded.

 

[Gary]

Only under the most messed up defintion of "superstar". As in, scoring alone is enough. It never has been, and never will be. When Glen Rice popped up to 26ppg, he wasn't a superstar either. And when you get shut down by Trenton Hassel, DURING your best season, that's pretty much a lifetime ban from superstardom. Superstars are multifaceted, they create for themselves and teammates, they lead. Peja is none of those things. He's got his little game, its largely the same one he had 5 years ago, and if you get him more open looks he'll score more points. That's not a superstar. That's a very good shooter.

And in any case, I don't know if people realize the implications of picking up SAR, but the shots are NOT going to be there for Peja to score at that rate again. I've mentioned before that there will be about 12-14 shots per starter, and they ALL want to shoot (well except Brad who could get lost a bit).

I was just saying that season there was "talks" of him being a superstar, because his rebounding, shooting %, and how he was able to hit any shot whenever he wanted (during the reg season). He was even playing improved defense.

I think IF he improved his defense which he has been improving over the years, rebounding to about 7+rpg, and was able to be more of a vocal player he has the potential to become a superstar. They would be like pre-injury Grant Hill numbers.

 

[SlimKid15]

The problem is, Chicago already has Deng and Nocioni. If they trade Chandler for another small forward, they create a hole up front and a logjam at small forward. The time to trade for Chandler has passed. If there ever was a chance to make it happen, it was two seasons ago when his back was acting up and he missed like half the season. Now he's shown to be too good as rebounder/defender who can score a little off hustle and heart for him to be traded.

Maybe we can throw a third team in there. I know wishful thinking

 

[Bricklayer]

I was just saying that season there was "talks" of him being a superstar, because his rebounding, shooting %, and how he was able to hit any shot whenever he wanted (during the reg season). He was even playing improved defense.

I think IF he improved his defense which he has been improving over the years, rebounding to about 7+rpg, and was able to be more of a vocal player he has the potential to become a superstar. They would be like pre-injury Grant Hill numbers.

Again, even if Peja did all of those thigs, which he has NEVER done before -- Hill was n ot only their best defender, he also completely ran the offense and made his teammates better. He also created his OWN offense. Peja cannot ever do that. He is a passive receiver. Despite the scrambling to get open, Peja actually plays a very easy worry free game -- he has NONE of the responsibiltiy of a superstar player to make the rest of the team better, control the game, take the big shots, dominate the action. Other people have to worry about setting HIM up, not the other way around.

You can take virtually any player and say well if he was able to do a, b, c, he'd be a superstar. Heck, if Mateen Cleaves could shoot better, defend better, and was a more creative PG he'd be a stud too.

Peja's got one trait and one trait only that even keeps him in the NBA. If his outside shot looked like Gerald Wallace's, he's have a hard time getting a training camp invite. To say well he does this ONE thing good, therefore if he only did all of the rest of it as well he'd be great is...well, wishful thinking.

 

[BigSong]

Maybe we can throw a third team in there. I know wishful thinking

Personally the only guy on Chicago that interests me is Nocioni. If the Kings could land that guy it we be awesome for the future.

 

[hrdboild]

Since you bring up Nocioni, I'd heard that he was a good defensive player but interestingly enough, according to this study, he was one of the few players in the league who was worse defensively at the SF spot than Peja was last year (worst in the leage in fact). I don't really have an opinion on him myself, I've barely seem him play. But I am curious as to why he seems to have a reputation as a defensive player when it would seem based on the stats that he's one of the worst.

But about him being awesome for the future, I do have an opinion on that. He's going to turn 26 this year. Peja just turned 28. The way people talk about Peja like he's over the hill already, I don't see someone like Nocioni being a "build for the future" type of guy. You have to remember that some of these Euro guys are new to the league, but they aren't exactly youngsters anymore. Peja was scoring 20+ points per game in the NBA well before his 26h birthday (along with 5+ rebounds, 2+ assists and a steal). Nocioni averaged 8 ppg last year.

 

[Mad D]

Since you bring up Nocioni, I'd heard that he was a good defensive player but interestingly enough, according to this study, he was one of the few players in the league who was worse defensively at the SF spot than Peja was last year (worst in the leage in fact).

Am I reading it wrong or are you? It list Matt Harpring lower than Peja, not Nocioni.
http://www.82games.com/rosenbaum3.htm

I don't really have an opinion on him myself, I've barely seem him play. But I am curious as to why he seems to have a reputation as a defensive player when it would seem based on the stats that he's one of the worst.

Andres Nocioni is a curious case – great defensive stats but horrible defensive adjusted plus/minus ratings. I’d like to see him for another year before coming to any conclusions.

 

[Kings113]

Personally the only guy on Chicago that interests me is Nocioni. If the Kings could land that guy it we be awesome for the future.

Oh yeah, Nocioni is awesome...

 

[Bricklayer]

Since you bring up Nocioni, I'd heard that he was a good defensive player but interestingly enough, according to this study, he was one of the few players in the league who was worse defensively at the SF spot than Peja was last year (worst in the leage in fact). I don't really have an opinion on him myself, I've barely seem him play. But I am curious as to why he seems to have a reputation as a defensive player when it would seem based on the stats that he's one of the worst.

But about him being awesome for the future, I do have an opinion on that. He's going to turn 26 this year. Peja just turned 28. The way people talk about Peja like he's over the hill already, I don't see someone like Nocioni being a "build for the future" type of guy. You have to remember that some of these Euro guys are new to the league, but they aren't exactly youngsters anymore. Peja was scoring 20+ points per game in the NBA well before his 26h birthday (along with 5+ rebounds, 2+ assists and a steal). Nocioni averaged 8 ppg last year.

I've mentioned before the suspect nature of some of those 82games.com stats. I think basketball might be one of those sports where you hit a certain statistical wall after a time and aren't able to isolate factors well enough for the most detailed statistics to mean exactly what you think they do. You will, for instance, learn from last season that Mike Bibby was one of the best defenders on the Kings, while Mo Evans and Brian Skinner were some of the worst. Do you believe that? Neither do I.

Be that as it may since the guy who put together those stats was really trying....what Nocioni is is one tough dude. Hardnosed, fearless, tough on the glass. I don't think he's a defensive stopper, and suspect like many guys coming to the NBA the superior athleticism in the league poses him problems on the defensive end of the floor. But he'll bang and scrap and compete all night long.

And no, he's not a youngun. But as a new arrival to the NBA, he still may be better than he showed last year. Normally it takes two years for offshore vets to make the full adjustment. In any case, I have no idea why "the only" guy on Chicago one would be interested in was Nocioni. They have a lot of young talent, and most of it better than Andres. But I do like him, and with his hardnosed attitude and competitiveness he could play for my team any day of the week. In fact in my most ambitious Peja for Chandler scenarios he was the throw in on their side. I'm not sure what he would put up as a starter - may be more along the lines of strong backup than true starter. But he's much like his countryman Manu in that whatever he's got he leaves on the floor every night out.

As an aside, had himself an absolutely monstrous game to open the playoffs this year -- went for 25pts 18rebs and 4ast and just completely dominated the Wizards on the glass. Very impressive, and averaged 13 and 8 as a starting SF for the Bulls in that series. Think Matt Harpring.

 

[Kings113]

Yeah I was gonna mention his playoff series, and that opening game, amazing stuff to watch.

 

[nbrans]

Man, you are so full of it on the SAR as SF front its not even funny. Stuck in some cute litte Pejaesque world where every SF shoots threes because, well, Peja does. Did you EVEN watch SAR play before two years ago?

1) SAR averaged more points per game as a SF, and set hsi career high at that position
2) SAR set his career high in rebonding as a SF
3) SAR used to block shots a a decent level as a SF
4) and most of all, SAR used to have respect and even a little fear as the biggest, most athletic, post-up three in the game. $14.6mil of respect. Now he's struggling to get more than the MLE as a soft 4.

As a SF, SAR gets to physically dominate. He can post all the pansies and blown up OGs populating that position, jump over them, out muscle them. His strength on their weakness. Turn it around and put him at PF and now HE's the weak one, trying to go strength on strength against bigger stronger players used to defending post players of his size. He can't post as well, he can't muscle them up. And he provides none of the toughness and intimidation on defense that his peers at that position do. So he becomes mediocre. Going back to the last year that a team actually let him play full time PF for an entire season (02-03) he finished 71st amongst PFs in per 48 rebounding. He finished 98th amongst PFs in per 48 shotblocking. he probably finished dead last in toughness. His game is post up SF (and yes, such a thing is allowed). He displays almost none of the traits that you traditionally look for from PFs. Not tough. Not intimidating. Doesn't block shots. Mediocre to weak rebounder at that position. He's a SF in his heart, or lack thereof. Talented, but a natural born softie.

I guess you've resorted to insulting me instead of letting your points speak for themselves. Maybe you don't think your arguments can win on their own? It's kind of sad.

Anyway, it's not as if SAR played every single minute in Vancouver as a small forward, he spent a lot of time sliding over to the PF. In Atlanta, by the way, he had some huge games against the game's top power forwards including Tim Duncan, who he had to face twice a year even when he was in the east. Here's a game Shareef played against Duncan as a power forward: 27 and 11. Duncan had 27 and 15, and the Hawks won. SAR has shown he can post up the best of them.

If your argument is that he's a good post player and therefore a good small forward, something's not quite right. Yeah, Bonzi Wells has a post game, and so a post game in and of itself does not mean someone is a power forward. But when you have a 6'9" player who thrives in the post, is very strong on the block, is not quick enough to penetrate off of the perimeter or guard opposing 3's, has proven himself against the best PFs in the league at the 4, I think it's safe to assume that his natural position is the 4.

Honestly it's almost laughable to bring up per-48 minute stats for someone who played 38 minutes a game since it naturally puts him at a huge disadvantage. All those people playing 10 minutes a night can really give it their all in those 10 minutes but that doesn't mean they'd be able to put together SAR's numbers over 38. The fact is that he averaged 20 and 9 night in and night out, and that puts him in an elite group. Per 48 minute stats are really pointless in this case.

Not every PF is a shotblocker as your man Reggie Evans can attest (0.2 per game).

I understand that Shareef Abdur-Rahim is not the toughest or most intimidating or most anything power forward in the league. But you're really exaggerating his supposed softness and underselling his post ability against the best PFs in the league. I really think the crucial distinction is that he CAN play SF, did pretty well there for several years. But that was the past. And in the here-and-now he's a very, very good power forward, someone who can give the Kings a post presence at the 4 that they very badly need.

 

[nbrans]

Let's look at all the available evidence this offseason:

1. Bucks GM Larry Harris make Shareef Abdur-Rahim a $47 million offer to play the power forward position.
2. Nets President Rod Thorn was prepared to trade his trade exception, plus a first round pick to sign Abdur-Rahim to a $38 million contract to play the power forward position.
3. Kings President Geoff Petrie was quoted by Abdur-Rahim's agent as "willing to go out and do whatever they could" to sign Abdur-Rahim to play the power forward.

Unless you think you're smarter than Larry Harris, Rod Thorn and Geoff Petrie, and who knows, you might, I think it's pretty clear that actual basketball minds (i.e. not us) think that Shareef Abdur-Rahim is a power forward.

 

[Bricklayer]

Well congrats, you now have your own club -- the first human being on planet earth to ever complain about the use of per 48min stats for a MAJOR minute player. I realize it helps your argument immensely to dispense with silly things like stats, or even facts for that matter, but really now.

Since you choose to challenge the basic numbers, let's try the reverse on for size: There were 7 big men in the entire league who got as many minutes per game as SAR that season, and 6 of the 7 badly outrebounded him. The only one who did not was the even softer Antoine Walker. You play as many minutes as SAR does at PF you damn well BETTER grab 9 or more. 10 or more if you're quality.
38min+ big men:
Wallace: 15.4reb
Garnett: 13.4reb
Duncan: 12.9reb
Brand: 11.3reb
Webber: 10.5reb
Nowitzki: 9.9reb
Abdur-Rahim: 8.4reb
Walker: 7.2reb

And you really really need to quit intentionally misconstruing everybody else's arguments because it leaves the impression that you need to cheat and dodge people's arguments to win your point. So I'll try this one more time in such plain language that no amount of intentional obtuseness can possibly prevail:

1) SAR spent 5 years in Vancouver during which time his primary position was small forward

2) During those 5 years he set career highs in every major statistical category

3) His modus operandi during that era was to use his size and strength and leaping ability at SF to overpower opponents in the post. Something he was quite effective at. And something which, by the way, is actually 100% allowed by the rules of basketball without a mandatory position switch.

4) Then that shining beacon of organizational excellence, the Hawks, got a hold of him. And in their brilliance, they decided to make him a PF. A NEW primary positon he then played for the next 2 1/2 years until Atlanta got tired of getting pummeled in the middle and moved him a long.

5) During his time at PF he continued to shuffle along being Shareef, but all that had made him such an exceptional force at SF now made him just a ho hum PF with good offensive skills and few defensive skills, and turned him from a GREAT SF rebounder, into a poor PF rebounder. Complain all you want about those nasty stat thingies, but in his last full season starting at PF he was outrebounded by such noted bashers as Robert Horry and Christian Laettner, both playing 30min a night that season. He did, however, manage to barely outrebound the player he most resembles anymore -- Juwan Howard. His 10.5reb/48min that year was worse than every single big man on the Kings roster this past season except for Darius Songaila (9.9). One legged Webb managed 12.9 per 48. 6'7" KT averaged 13.2 per 48.

6) He has then spent the last 1 1/2 years fighting a move back to his NATURAL SF position that he had played for 2/3 of his career.

7) And to sum up and make this VERY clear -- you are the one who insists on continually asigning players positions based on single traits. Post player? Must be a PF. Wrong. Shareef WAS a SF, and as a SF the weapon that really made him dangerous was his post up ability. Furthermore, as a SF, his size allowed him to dominate the glass and the soft nature of his opponents prevented his own lack of interior defense from being a huge factor. He was the BEST post up SF in the game. He was the BEST SF rebounder in the game after Grant Hill messed up his ankle, and before the arrival of Marion. But then some bright boy in Atlanta moves him to PF where he "should" be and suddenly there are a lot of good post up players, and Shareef is no longer the best. Furthermore rebounding that was great for a SF suddenly does not cut it as a PF. Suddenly he's just another guy who scores well and does little else.

P.S. In case you missed this little piece of nifty statistical work above: http://www.82games.com/rosenbaum3.htm -- seems we may get to have the honor of watching the 9th worst PF defender and 2nd worst SF defender of the last three years team up ont he same front line this season. Color me happy.