Salmons

[Glenn]

What is wrong with him? It has been said that he does best as a starter than as a bench player and quite clearly the stats bare that out. He was a very good starter.

He seems to have lost all of his ability to contribute to this team and I no longer can attribute that to the fact he isn't starting. Cisco can start or come off the bench and play very well. Why can't Salmons?

I haven't kept track of the minutes he gets when he is inserted and maybe he needs a set amount so that he knows that no matter how he plays, he will get those minutes. Maybe then he can relax and play more like "starter Salmons."

Any opinions? How can John get enough game back to contribute? He played 18 minutes tonight in a game where Martin couldn't buy a basket. He may find himself behind Douby in the depth chart and clearly the guy has more skills than that. Why can't he use them?

 

[BuenoBeno]

I don't know but I really wish he could get his act together he is my favorite player but he hasn't been playing like it lately. Part of the problem I see is when he comes off the bench I don't see the ball in his hands quite as much-I sometimes want to scream " Salmons is open" to my t.v. I know its not just that, but that's how I feel. Some times I have also noticed that he is just standing in the wings waiting for someone to pass him the ball- he needs to create plays for himself that will enable him to get the ball not just excpect that it will come to him. He has been pretty good on defense still though even thought his offense has slowed down. Hopefully he will have a good game on Sunday.

 

[Jechtsphere]

I'm not sure maybe when you have both Ron and Salmons on at the same time you have two guys who dominate the ball, Salmons isn't the type where he can stand around and hit those open shots, he needs the ball in his hands to be effective.

I'm really not sure with him to be honest.

 

[kings20993]

he will break out next year if we dont resign artest

 

[EatMoreChicken]

is the dude just pouting b/c he's not getting his minutes and status as a starter? He's almost useless coming off the bench.

 

[jcassio]

I have mixed feelings about John Salmons. He plays hard defense - probably one of our top three defensive players (along with Artest and Cisco). But, offensively, he's not a great team player. Even when he has a great offensive game - which can be quite exciting, watching him spin through defenders and finish strong - he doesn't seem to make his teammates better.

Looking beyond the bench player vs starter question, here's something to think about: Salmons was most productive for the 76ers when Iverson was not in the game; but when Iverson was in the game, Salmons was not productive. With the Kings, Salmons is most productive when Artest is not in the game; but when Artest is in the game, Salmons is not productive. What do Iverson and Artest have in common? They both tend to dominate the ball - when given the opportunity.

 

[Rockmeister]

When watching the game last night, I noticed John Salmons just sitting there on the bench with no enthusiasm. Garcia was up standing and clapping for his teammates. But if Salmons did clap, it was a golf clap and nothing more.

If the Kings do resign Artest, then I think Salmons should be traded.

 

[Emma]

I think his significant other is undergoing a problem pregnancy, not sure about the details though. Maybe that is a contributor.

However, he does pout in the same way as KT, if he turns out anything like KT I would like him gone ASAP.

 

[VF21]

is the dude just pouting b/c he's not getting his minutes and status as a starter? He's almost useless coming off the bench.

I personally think people (and I'm just using your quote because it's the most recent) want to assign "pouting" to too many players way too often to excuse a lack of production on the court.

In Salmon's case, I think he just isn't motivated as much when he's getting limited minutes. I don't even think it's a conscious thing; I think he is an individual who rises to the challenge when his number is called, so to speak.

If we keep Artest, we'll have to find a way to move Salmons, which I believe Brick has said all along. We know Salmons can contribute but the conditions here if we keep #93 past this season just might not be conducive to good performance from him.

 

[BuenoBeno]

Did you ever think maybe he's not pouting and maybe he just has a reserve type personality-I have heard it mentioned may times that he is a very quiet person. I have a shy personality and have been told many times that I look sad even when I am feeling fine.

 

[Jechtsphere]

Did you ever think maybe he's not pouting and maybe he just has a reserve type personality-I have heard it mentioned may times that he is a very quiet person. I have a shy personality and have been told many times that I look sad even when I am feeling fine.

Yup that is his personality, he doesn't show emotion like some people like a Garcia where you can tell they are fired up.

John is just John, always the same so I don't think he's pouting at all.

 

[Jerichoholic]

Did you ever think maybe he's not pouting and maybe he just has a reserve type personality-I have heard it mentioned may times that he is a very quiet person.

Salmons definitely has a reserved personality which has been mentioned quite a few times. In fact in the game against Dallas when he hit the game winner he actually jumped up once in excitement and Grant & Jerry said that was the most excited they've ever seen him. He has never been one to jump off the bench clapping his hands when one of his teammates makes a good play even when he was starting.

That being said though I do believe he is pouting and while that in itself may not be directly affecting his play he is pouting nonetheless. After what happened earlier this year when Artest came back from the suspension and Salmons threw a tantrum this doesn't surprise me. There is nothing wrong with a quiet personality in the locker room, but a negative one is a problem.

I don't have an explanation as to why he needs to start, I don't think his pouting is a direct correlation, I don't think the fact that he needs to dominate the ball is the problem either as he averaged around 5 assists per game while starting. When he started he was driving constantly and either stop & pop for that mid range shot or would finish strong at the rim, he also shot 46% from 3 point range. Now he rarely drives and when he does he loses it most of the time and he won't shoot from the arc at all. He still gets the ball a lot when he plays and he gets significant minutes...he has just lost all of his aggression. Now I never saw him play much in Philadelphia but I heard he was much the same way there.

The fact is we could have traded him for a lot when he was starting but now his value has plummeted. I hope that if we lose Artest in the offseason that Salmons can be the player he was. That is why I wanted to trade Artest, so we could see what we were going to get with Salmons, but now that won't happen.

 

[jcassio]

The fact is we could have traded him for a lot when he was starting but now his value has plummeted.

I like your comments until you assert that his value has "plummeted." A player's value in the NBA doesn't plummet in a short time span unless he has a serious injury. Just a little perspective, please.

 

[Jerichoholic]

I like your comments until you assert that his value has "plummeted." A player's value in the NBA doesn't plummet in a short time span unless he has a serious injury. Just a little perspective, please.

Of course I'm not an NBA general manager, even though I did stay in a holiday inn express last night...but trust me, his value has indeed "plummeted". While starting he was playing at an all-star level, I would bet that some teams would have been willing to part with a late lottery pick and young talent for him.

Now that he is coming off the bench he has been absolutely useless. He didn't even score a point for two or three games where he was getting big minutes. I doubt we could get an expiring contract for him now. I would define that as plummeting. Now I would be totally wrong if he was viewed by some still as the player who started, but this definitely a "what have you done for me lately" league.

 

[Entity]

Those of you that wanted Artest traded. Look no further than John Salmons. If he had been productive at all once Artest came back it would have shown GP that he was motivated and ready to step up to any challenge. But be as it may he feel off the face of the earth with his bad play that it made it hard to trade Artest not knowing what production you could get out of John. Maybe his stellar play in the early going was just an abarition.

 

[jcassio]

Of course I'm not an NBA general manager, even though I did stay in a holiday inn express last night...but trust me, his value has indeed "plummeted". While starting he was playing at an all-star level, I would bet that some teams would have been willing to part with a late lottery pick and young talent for him.

Now that he is coming off the bench he has been absolutely useless. He didn't even score a point for two or three games where he was getting big minutes. I doubt we could get an expiring contract for him now. I would define that as plummeting. Now I would be totally wrong if he was viewed by some still as the player who started, but this definitely a "what have you done for me lately" league.

I think we're probably talking semantics here. I agree that his value has declined (since his quality of play has declined). I just get an itch when people use words (like plummet) that I think are overly dramatic. Then again, if you think his value was recently as high as an all-star, and now he's just garbage, then we're probably talking more than semantics.

 

[fnordius]

Of course I'm not an NBA general manager, even though I did stay in a holiday inn express last night...but trust me, his value has indeed "plummeted". While starting he was playing at an all-star level, I would bet that some teams would have been willing to part with a late lottery pick and young talent for him.

If someone wanted him as a bench player, his value may have dropped, although he has never shown himself to be very good coming off the bench, so he probably didn't have much value to lose. If a team wanted him as an inexpensive starter, I think he'd be a fine choice, and don't think his recent slump would change his price very much. It's kind of a moot point anyway, since we can't trade him this season.

As for where his mojo went, I agree with VF21's assessment. I don't think it's conscious at all. I also don't think it's the least bit uncommon; most players, when given significantly more minutes, become more productive per minute than before. Put them back on the bench, and their per minute productivity drops again. Salmons just has a much worse case of that than average.

I don't think that's something that's likely to change, so he's going to be wasted as long as he's on the same roster as Artest. Hopefully everything can be happily resolved once the Artest question works itself out this summer.

 

[Glenn]

Thanks for the explanations. To me it's still a head scatcher.

As to his demeanor, it's no difference than KT's. It used to be called a game face but now it is pouting. I don't think it's pouting but I prefer more emotion.

I hate to talk in terms of trade value but it's a good point with John. Does he have a definable trade value? I don't think so. Will his game snap out of it if he starts? I'm beginning to doubt it yet I have no data to back that up.

Do people really know why he went running out of the dressing room when Artest returned? And remember it was Artest who chased him to bring him back.

When people were discussing that and attributing that behavior to him losing his starting job I thought to myself, "What did he expect?" Everyone on the planet who cared knew that Artest would be the starter yet Salmons goes ballastic. Very odd.

There was awhile I had thought we had an all star. He wasn't a team player because he had to have the ball but he also couldn't be stopped. I always have mixed emotions about guys like that because when crunch time comes, I want the ball in their hands yet on a regular minute to minute basis, they disrupt team flow.

I THINK I have noticed that when he comes off the bench he doesn't drive to the basket - his unstoppable move. Am I wrong?

 

[Glenn]

Some people attribute his poor play to the presence of Artest. Is that because Salmons needs to start (a still unexplained limitation) or something specific to Artest?

 

[fnordius]

Some people attribute his poor play to the presence of Artest. Is that because Salmons needs to start (a still unexplained limitation) or something specific to Artest?

My guess is that both perform at their very best (and, occasionally, very worst) when they think they are The Man. They rise to the occasion, get a death grip on the ball, and try to carry the team. But there's no way they can both be The Man at the same time.

So I'd say it's not unique to Artest, it's only a problem because they're both wired that way. I'm sure that there must be a number of players like that. The question is whether it's better to have access to that superpower, even though it comes with a kryptonite reaction to the bench. My gut feeling is that it's only a net benefit if the party concerned really and truly is a franchise player, but that's just a feeling.

 

[Glenn]

My guess is that both perform at their very best (and, occasionally, very worst) when they think they are The Man. They rise to the occasion, get a death grip on the ball, and try to carry the team. But there's no way they can both be The Man at the same time.

So I'd say it's not unique to Artest, it's only a problem because they're both wired that way. I'm sure that there must be a number of players like that. The question is whether it's better to have access to that superpower, even though it comes with a kryptonite reaction to the bench. My gut feeling is that it's only a net benefit if the party concerned really and truly is a franchise player, but that's just a feeling.

So true. I'll add that having two of that mind set on the same team may be one too many.

It just might be that when he is on the floor with other bench guys, some of these guys being desperate to show their skills, he receives the ball far less. These bench guys want to showcase themselves and don't pass to Salmons. They know the ball won't come back.

Certainly we can watch a game and see if that seems to be true. How many touches does John get?

As an aside, and I hope this doesn't side track the thread, I think Ron is learning. He doesn't dominate the ball as much and there are times when I think he knows he needs to. There are times when I want the ball in his hands. Maybe it's just my cheerleader side that sees that.

 

[SLAB]

Ive disliked Salmons since Day 1, and this stuff he's pulling only makes me dislike him more.

He's proven he's a player in this league. Starting or bench shouldn't make a difference.

In my eyes, the guy is a selfish player who's interest lies in ONE thing. Nope, not the team. Not his teammates, but all about him.

If Salmons is happy. Salmons plays like he can. If Salmons is mad, he just says "Forget about it" and coasts.

 

[Entity]

yeah ron did shoot 22 times last night. But I thought it was well in the flow of the game. he get about 5 attempts a game that are put backs of is on miss were he is banging and scraping inside to get the rebound and gets tip attempts added to his total. But being the #1 or at least #2 option on the team 17-22 shot attempts is well within what he should be getting.

 

[BuenoBeno]

Ive disliked Salmons since Day 1, and this stuff he's pulling only makes me dislike him more.

He's proven he's a player in this league. Starting or bench shouldn't make a difference.

In my eyes, the guy is a selfish player who's interest lies in ONE thing. Nope, not the team. Not his teammates, but all about him.

If Salmons is happy. Salmons plays like he can. If Salmons is mad, he just says "Forget about it" and coasts.

First of all-what stuff is he pulling???? Just because he is playing worse then before does not mean he is TRYING to play worse. I fell even though his offense has slumped he seems to still be trying very hard on defense. Which proves to me that he does care about this team.-not just himself I don't agree with your post at all so I will just stop here.

 

[Bricklayer]

Ive disliked Salmons since Day 1, and this stuff he's pulling only makes me dislike him more.

He's proven he's a player in this league. Starting or bench shouldn't make a difference.

In my eyes, the guy is a selfish player who's interest lies in ONE thing. Nope, not the team. Not his teammates, but all about him.

If Salmons is happy. Salmons plays like he can. If Salmons is mad, he just says "Forget about it" and coasts.

It was the exact same thing in Philly -- why I did not want him here for the kind of money we paid him. Then he has me changing my mind by showing up as a major starter. Then he has me returning right back to my earlier sentiments by flying back to the pouty dumps off the bench.

 

[jcassio]

...I think Ron is learning. He doesn't dominate the ball as much and there are times when I think he knows he needs to. There are times when I want the ball in his hands. Maybe it's just my cheerleader side that sees that.

I agree. I don't think he's changed his nature, but he's not the ball hog that he was.

 

[Showtime]

It's clear that he needs the ball to be effective on the offensive end, as he doesn't do a lot off the ball. It's also clear that John is the type of player that needs to get 'hot' and get going, so when these two attributes of a player are combined, it doesn't suit a bench player. He needs the ball to get his offense going, and he needs to get hot, so he isn't the type of guy who can come off the bench and provide short stints of instant offense, like Garcia can do.

 

[BMiller52]

Have we got the SF version of Kenny??

 

[BuenoBeno]

Have we got the SF version of Kenny??

I highly doubt Kenny would catch on fire as a starter.

On a side note- I have allways been confused as to why Kenny Thomas never gets to play at all- from what I've seen he isn't THAT bad. Were paying his the big bucks so we should atleast give him some playing time.

 

[John Galt]

I highly doubt Kenny would catch on fire as a starter.

On a side note- I have allways been confused as to why Kenny Thomas never gets to play at all- from what I've seen he isn't THAT bad. Were paying his the big bucks so we should atleast give him some playing time.

benching Kenny Thomas is the best thing that has happened to the Kings this season. Just needed another fresher look.

Salmons needs a character infusion... needs a big brother or mentor to talk some maturity into him. I don't care if he sulks, I only care that he plays like crap off the bench. It is unacceptable - he is a nice player but if he thinks he should start over Kevin or Ron, he is crazier than Ron is.