Proposed trade with Houston:

Is there a credible hint that Houston is willing do discuss Asik trades? I didn't know that. If so, then I'm 100% on board with OP. But I don't do that if I'm Houston.
 
bajaden said:
Since its the TDOS, I decided to propose a trade that I think makes sense for both teams. Just my opinion of course and Houston may not agree with me. This trade is based on the rumors that the Rockets were at one time shopping Asik.

Kings send: Marcus Thornton and Jason Thompson

Houston sends: Omer Asik and Terrence Jones

As of now, Houston has no one to back up Harden at the SG position that can bring some scoring off the bench. They do have Reggie Williams, who didn't log many minutes last season. So Thornton would provide some punch for them. They acquired D. Howard, and because of Asik, their proposing that he play PF. Howard is low post player and is only effective there. He basically has little or no game away from the basket. Asik is also a low post player. Replace Asik with Thompson, and you have a better compliment to Howard, and also a player that that knows his role.

In Asik the Kings get a player that would allow Cousins to play in the high post and a player that is very solid defensively. He's not a freak shotblocker, but he defends very well in the post, and is an excellent rebounder. Terrence Jones is all about potential. I really liked him at Kentucky, and although he played a lot of PF there, mostly out of need. I've always seen him as a SF that can play some PF if necessary. Offensively he's still a little raw, but he's a very good defensive player that averaged one blocked shot in 14 minutes of playing time. Expanded to per 36, he averages 2.5 blocked shots. He's a decent but not great rebounder. But once again his per 36 numbers come out to 8.5 rebounds.

I ran this trade through ESPN's trade checker, and it works.
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I agree with the reasoning on why Houston would want to make the deal. Like you say, a casual observer would see that two low post players in LA didn't work. Why would it work in Houston? Where I have questions is whether it would actually be complentary on offense with Cousins. Yes, Cousins can play outside. He's a good outside shooting center. However, the coach has made it fairly clear in his comments that he wants Cousins in the low post. Well, if he does want Cousins in the low post, how would it work with another low post player in Asik? With the past regime, I'd be more confident that they would cater to Cousins desire to play outside and pull the trigger on this deal. With this regime, I'm not so sure.

I'm on the fence on this one. On the one hand, I think you come out ahead talentwise in this trade if you're the Kings (I like Jones, by the way). On the other hand, I don't think it will facilitate the idea of Cousins playing primarily in the low post. Asik could be the enabler that pushes the team to play Cousins outside rather than inside.
 
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Kingster said:
I agree with the reasoning on why Houston would want to make the deal. Like you say, a casual observer would see that two low post players in LA didn't work. Why would it work in Houston? Where I have questions is whether it would actually be complentary on offense with Cousins. Yes, Cousins can play outside. He's a good outside shooting center. However, the coach has made it fairly clear in his comments that he wants Cousins in the low post. Well, if he does want Cousins in the low post, how would it work with another low post player in Asik? With the past regime, I'd be more confident that they would cater to Cousins desire to play outside and pull the trigger on this deal. With this regime, I'm not so sure.

I'm on the fence on this one. On the one hand, I think you come out ahead talentwise in this trade if you're the Kings (I like Jones, by the way). On the other hand, I don't think it will facilitate the idea of Cousins playing primarily in the low post. Asik could be enabler that pushes the team to play Cousins outside rather than inside.
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Asik worked with Noah and Gibson because they are good passers so is cousins. Cousins can work the high post with a dribble drive and Howard can't
 
There are a lot of ways to use two post players in a game. Bynum and Gasol worked for years for the Lakers, despite Bynum's lack of range. Cousins, despite shooting poorly from midrange last season, actually has a pretty good stroke out to about 18 feet, but has Josh Smith's shot selection. With Cousins' offensive versatility, he can work with just about any type of big-man on that side of the floor.

However, Cousins lack of defense requires a strong defensive anchor as a partner. Asik doesn't block shots like an Ibaka, but he is tall, moves well and, more importantly, grew up under the tutelage of the best defensive coach in the league. Asik may not be the ideal fit next to Cousins (that would be Anthony Davis,) but he is as good as you can reasonably expect to get.
 
Čarolija said:
My main question with Cousins/Asik combo is who will be guarding the PFs? On offense it's a great fit but defensively...
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This is my issue with people wanting to move Cousins to PF. The position has evolved into mega-athlete/perimeter oriented type players. Love, BG, Josh Smith, Lee, etc. All much quicker than Cousins and all generally like starting around the high post. Cousins struggles VS an offensively inept position at C and has not yet shown the willingness to defend yet. He's learned how to stay out of foul trouble though at C. I'd prefer to keep that rather than move him to a position where 75% of the players can beat him off the dribble and he reverts back to his old "frustrated fouling" ways.

Of course we've talked about the mythical "PF who can be a defensive anchor" but in reality, there's only 3 guys in the NBA who can do so. And none of them are even close to being available.
 
The_Jamal said:
This is my issue with people wanting to move Cousins to PF. The position has evolved into mega-athlete/perimeter oriented type players. Love, BG, Josh Smith, Lee, etc. All much quicker than Cousins and all generally like starting around the high post. Cousins struggles VS an offensively inept position at C and has not yet shown the willingness to defend yet. He's learned how to stay out of foul trouble though at C. I'd prefer to keep that rather than move him to a position where 75% of the players can beat him off the dribble and he reverts back to his old "frustrated fouling" ways.

Of course we've talked about the mythical "PF who can be a defensive anchor" but in reality, there's only 3 guys in the NBA who can do so. And none of them are even close to being available.
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I think there's a tendency, especially among'st fans, to give up too early on young players. Case in point! Just over a year ago, the Bucks were thinking of trading Larry Sanders. They were disappointed in his development up to that point, and when you add in that they had more PF's than you could shake a stick at, it sort of made sense. But they decided to stick with him for one more season, and wa la, he exploded into something close to a franchise player. All it took was a little time, and some injuries to players higher up in the pecking order.

When you look around the league at the players you might want for that mythical position, most are home grown. And in the case of a couple, they were considered somewhat risky picks at the time. My point is, that maybe the only way to acquire one, is to draft one. I doubt that any team is just going to give us one. Unless of course, there's another Larry Sanders hidden out there.
 
bajaden said:
I think there's a tendency, especially among'st fans, to give up too early on young players. Case in point! Just over a year ago, the Bucks were thinking of trading Larry Sanders. They were disappointed in his development up to that point, and when you add in that they had more PF's than you could shake a stick at, it sort of made sense. But they decided to stick with him for one more season, and wa la, he exploded into something close to a franchise player. All it took was a little time, and some injuries to players higher up in the pecking order.

When you look around the league at the players you might want for that mythical position, most are home grown. And in the case of a couple, they were considered somewhat risky picks at the time. My point is, that maybe the only way to acquire one, is to draft one. I doubt that any team is just going to give us one. Unless of course, there's another Larry Sanders hidden out there.
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Memphis has one on the bench. Doubt they're just going to trade him away, though.

We passed on a few in this year's draft. Rudy Gobert was available for a song in the draft. I think he could turn into a Marc Gasol type if he can bulk up a little bit. Jeff Withey was another one that was available (and was involved in the Tyreke trade, dagnabbit.)
 
Hadlowe said:
Memphis has one on the bench. Doubt they're just going to trade him away, though.

We passed on a few in this year's draft. Rudy Gobert was available for a song in the draft. I think he could turn into a Marc Gasol type if he can bulk up a little bit. Jeff Withey was another one that was available (and was involved in the Tyreke trade, dagnabbit.)
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I'm sure you know that I was a big fan of Withey's. He improved every year at Kansas, and without a doubt, was the second best shotblocker in college two years in a row. Either they were totally in love with McCallum, or Withey wasn't what they were looking for. Gobert is another story althogether. He may well turn into something, but Gasol is a bit of a reach. With Withey I had a fair idea of how he might turn out. But with Gobert I have no clue. However, he does fall into that risk area I was referring to.
 
Gobert's standing reach is the same as Yao Ming's was. He will never need to rely on athleticism to be a defensive presence. He is very quick laterally for a big man. During Orlando summer league, I saw two occasions where Gobert was under the basket when a shooter caught the ball in the corner. He was still able to close out and block the shot. He also has a decent touch around the rim and catches the ball well, meaning he will be a decent pick and roll target. I really think the Jazz got a steal there.
 
Hadlowe said:
Gobert's standing reach is the same as Yao Ming's was. He will never need to rely on athleticism to be a defensive presence. He is very quick laterally for a big man. During Orlando summer league, I saw two occasions where Gobert was under the basket when a shooter caught the ball in the corner. He was still able to close out and block the shot. He also has a decent touch around the rim and catches the ball well, meaning he will be a decent pick and roll target. I really think the Jazz got a steal there.
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You could very well be right. As I've said before, its not an exact science. I've been wrong many times over the years. There are some things you just can't measure. Drummond is a case in point. I never for a moment doubted his talent. No one did. What I questioned was his heart and desire. He showed a lack in those two areas in highschool and his one year in college. Of course now in retrospect, it would be a no brain'er. Drummond at his worse would still be better than the player you no longer have in Robinson. Who knows, maybe Drummond was just bored with inferior competition, and needed to get into the NBA for a real challenge. I doubt that, but what the hell, its as logical as anything else.

So when you look at a player like Gobert, you have to ask yourself, is he the next Mutumbo, or the next Thabeet? No one knows for sure. Your betting on a specialty, and that always comes with risk. But as I said, sometimes you have to take that risk to win the prize. I guess the question is, are the current Kings in a position to be taking risks right now.
 
bajaden said:
You could very well be right. As I've said before, its not an exact science. I've been wrong many times over the years. There are some things you just can't measure. Drummond is a case in point. I never for a moment doubted his talent. No one did. What I questioned was his heart and desire. He showed a lack in those two areas in highschool and his one year in college. Of course now in retrospect, it would be a no brain'er. Drummond at his worse would still be better than the player you no longer have in Robinson. Who knows, maybe Drummond was just bored with inferior competition, and needed to get into the NBA for a real challenge. I doubt that, but what the hell, its as logical as anything else.

So when you look at a player like Gobert, you have to ask yourself, is he the next Mutumbo, or the next Thabeet? No one knows for sure. Your betting on a specialty, and that always comes with risk. But as I said, sometimes you have to take that risk to win the prize. I guess the question is, are the current Kings in a position to be taking risks right now.
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I think small market teams always have to take risks. Lakers and Celtics and Knicks can rely on infinite cash and glamor to draw big-name free agents to fill in holes in the roster. Small market teams become powerhouses by taking risks on players in the draft and in trades. You give up your all-star to get the troubled, but talented youngster then sign the over-the-hill vet to mentor the kid and all of a sudden, you have a contending team (Webber, Divac). You draft the athletic, rebounding power forward with stone hands and no mid-range game at all, in the hope that he can develop into a low post option to pair with your promising point guard from the year before (Karl Malone).

Over the last 8 years, the Kings have certainly taken risks on players. Evans, Cousins, Fredette, Thornton. All of those are acquisitions with big warning signs attached. The insanity is that the Kings take those risks and then do not develop the players. We watch Evans bounce through 3 positions in as many years, and wonder why he doesn't progress from his RoY campaign. We see Cousins come back last year talking about his 3-point shot. We see Fredette get drafted to play off of Evans and then never see the court with him. Draft Robinson as a rebounder/hustle player, and then give him a green light to shoot jumpers? It's lunacy. The only risk that has paid off at all is IT, because his size made him undervalued by everyone in the league, and because any contribution from a late 2nd rounder is unexpected.

By way of contrast, San Antonio is the master's class of taking risks, then managing the risks into a team. Draft Parker and Ginobli as late picks, but give them a limited role and make them work until they are perfect at that role. Then you give them a bigger role, until they are sharing the limelight with Duncan. Pick up Danny Green and Gary Neal off the NBA's scrap heap, but give them a role and have them practice it until they can execute it to perfection. Trade away George Hill to move up and draft Kawhi Leonard in the middle of the first round despite his lack of an outside shot, but then stick him in the corner and tell him he can't go home until he hits 12 corner threes in a row. Everything that the Spurs have done over the last 10 years has been risky, yet they make it pay by investing in the risk and giving the player a limited, defined role and turning him into an asset.

We'll see if the new front office and coaching staff has any better idea of how to manage player development to turn those risks into real assets.
 
I certainly agree with you on player development. We've had little or none to speak of. Basically, the players were on their own to figure it out, with no respected veterans to show them the way. I have nothing against taking risks. I was a huge advocate of drafting both Cousins and Evans. But to my mind, they were educated risks. There was never a doubt in my mind that both were very talented, and both were competitors. I didn't have any doubts about either players desire. My questions about Cousins were all on the maturity side, and my questions about Tyreke were all on the one dimensional side. Could he be a true PG, and could he develop a game away from the basket. But I never doubted that either would be valuable players in some capacity.

Thomas Robinson is the kind of risk I don't like. He wasn't my choice! I did my best to find positives about him once we drafted him. I tried to believe in him. But all the doubts I had about him came to the forefront, and I knew I would hear an "I told you so from Uncia03. I hate when he right!. He's one of the best player evaluator's I personally know. Its a shame he doesn't post more. Anyway, the Cousin kind of risk is an entirely different kind of risk from a player like Gobert. Cousins came with a bag full of skills in place. Gobert doesn't, and your betting he'll develop those skills. Ditto Tyreke Evans!. Anyway, there is no right or wrong way. It always comes down to the individual, and hopefully if you do your homework, you strike gold. Or at worse Copper! Hey, the price is going up!
 
randymoss1881 said:
Asik list his starting spot and only played 4min. Thompson and PP better step up we need them for the trade
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I've forgotten how the poison pill year resolves in an Asik trade, but it could be tricky.

Who knows, they are so committed to junk style ball down there maybe they really would want PPat back. But that is not remotely enough to swap for Asik, who has some considerable value in the league. We just have so few attractive assets anymore. Its funny because we used to seem to have so many. Now once you send them a PF, our next best assets are our two PGs, who are both critical to us for what they do. Thornton's value has been trashed, and they already have Harden. The SFs = haha. Jimmer is a throw in at best. Maybe MAYBE you could make it a full Houston revival and get them to take Hayes too, but he can only have throw in value as well at this point. It gets hard to imagine the Asik trade right now that doesn't punch a pretty sizable hole back the other way.
 
Bricklayer said:
I've forgotten how the poison pill year resolves in an Asik trade, but it could be tricky.
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His cap hit is $8.3M both years, and any trades are based on the salary cap hit. But his actual salary is low in year 2 of the contract and sky-high in year 3. So if we traded for him, we'd actually end up paying him more money than his cap figure, most of it in the second year. Incidentally, it's a "Gilbert Arenas provision" and not a "poison pill" (Cousins right now would be a poison pill, because his salary is due to go up next year by a large amount due to an extension).
 
I'm curious if/how that salary will affect his value around the league. In fact, the longer Houston waits, the less willing teams might be to trade for him, knowing they would essentially be paying him $15 million for just one season. That would, however, be a nice way for our new ownership to show they're committed to spending the resources necessary to improve the team.

That said, while Patterson seemed like a good fit before given his familiarity with the franchise and his ability to play the poor man's Ryan Anderson game next to Howard, his struggles thus far have likely torpedoed his trade value. Same for Thornton. Now, maybe--just maybe--you really pull out the wallet and take on both Lin and Asik--swapping out Patterson and our other expirings in Vasquez, Jimmer, and Salmons. That may appeal to the Rockets, as it would give them a sizeable chunk of cap space this summer to add a third star to Howard/Harden. That's a pretty hefty financial hit for us, though, and I actually think they'd balk at trading Vasquez given the leadership role he's taken on.
 
Well, apparently per today's reports, Asik has now officially asked to be traded again.

I'm still squinting hard looking for the package we could offer them that's going to beat other teams' offers, but I would think we'd at least call if we haven't already.
 
Bricklayer said:
Well, apparently per today's reports, Asik has now officially asked to be traded again.

I'm still squinting hard looking for the package we could offer them that's going to beat other teams' offers, but I would think we'd at least call if we haven't already.
Click to expand...


What about something centered around Cuz and this years draft pick? We could trade Cousins/McLemore/IT/2013 first rounder/2015 unprotected first rounder for Asik.


Actually, wait a minute. We can't trade this years pick. Just add in two future first round picks instead of this years one. I'm not sure Houston does that, though. Or we could do a draft day deal and draft Randle/Parker/Wiggins and package him with the above.
 
Dime Dropper said:
What about something centered around Cuz and this years draft pick? We could trade Cousins/McLemore/IT/2013 first rounder/2015 unprotected first rounder for Asik.


Actually, wait a minute. We can't trade this years pick. Just add in two future first round picks instead of this years one. I'm not sure Houston does that, though. Or we could do a draft day deal and draft Randle/Parker/Wiggins and package him with the above.
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They might want more as a lot of those players are unproven.
 
JT+Patterson for Asik.

Houston gets two players who can compliment Howard's lack of offense and he picks up for their Defensive limitations. We play Asik at 5 and move Cuz to the 4.
 
upinsmoke said:
JT+Patterson for Asik.

Houston gets two players who can compliment Howard's lack of offense and he picks up for their Defensive limitations. We play Asik at 5 and move Cuz to the 4.
Click to expand...

Would you then call Cousins a "stretch 4"? ;) He's been shooting very well from the outside
 
What is Lin's perceived value? Is it negative at all? I know he received a contract that may have been a little too big and is now coming off the bench.

Is a package of both more attractive to teams, or less?
 
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