predictions on new starting line up

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John Galt said:
small and crazy I know, but the way I've seen Ben just jump out of the gym, and the way I've seen Jimmer be the only one on the floor with a brain… I'd like to see this:

Vasquez
Jimmer
Ben
Luc
DFC
Click to expand...

That is the lineup that will win the most games, IMO. Luc/JT are solid defenders and you can go with either and be fine. Patterson's shooting isn't needed any longer with that lineup, seeing as how Jimmer and BM can shoot the lights out.
 
starting:

GV
Benny Mac to the max
Time for Luc
Still not over Patterson
Always Cuz

in rotation:
IT
Jimmer
Outlaw
JT
Hayes
Ray

In the dog house indefinitely:
Salmons (if not perma dog house, given contract status)
Thornton (could have seen last major minutes till a trade)

On notice:
Patterson

Note: Malone is a man of his word and he did NOT mean his words lightly. He gave a very fair shot for the guys he thought could produce and who had some talent. Those dudes did not respond in a positive way, and I think the people replacing them in the rotation won't make the same mistake. Therefore I think it's doubtful Salmons or Thornton sees major minutes for a while, if ever, frankly.

I think this turn of events will force Coach Malone to play guard heavy lineups more than he would like, so I think we'll see things like GV, IT, and Benny Mac, with Luc at the 4, at times, for example.
 
Glenn said:
I hope people who want Jimmer to play have noted that Malone does not talk about Jimmer as if he is a PG. I think in Malone's world and in my world also, Jimmer is a SG.
Click to expand...

The nice thing about Jimmer, is that he can just be an all around "guard". Meaning, if he ends up with the ball, he can bring the ball up at times. More versatility and it's nice to have more than one guy on the floor who can get us into an offensive set. Thornton never looks to get the ball up the court on his own,...in fact he'll turn around and throw it backwards to whoever the pg is. I can't stand that brand of ball. If you're a guard in the NBA, you should look to push the ball up the floor. Jimmer will
 
Thread that needed to be done. Alas, mine was going to include a new poll. :p

Malone was throwing pissy bombs last night, SOMEBODY is on the outs. I'll be quite disappointed if his earlier lovey dovey comments about Patterson and Salmons mean that all that changes is Thornton.

in the last couple of days you:

1) say that hangdog overreaction demeanor has to change -- Thompson, Cousins, Thornton
2) question how much guys hate to lose (an important distinction I have always favored) -- Salmons
3) suggest some guys only about themselves, quit when not going their way -- Thornton
4) question effort etc. on the glass -- Patterson, Salmons, Chuck?

unclear to me how he feels other names might fit in those comments. Do any apply to Grevis for instance? Outlaw?

Predictions are difficult. 2 weeks ago he made some eyebrow raising statement about how he just loved everything about PPat as a person. Has he been cured of that so quickly? I dunno. All I can say is using his complaints, and our complaints, as a basis, this would be MY fix:

banish Marcus Thornton & John Salmons. Bench Patrick Patterson. Buy paint gun and have security shoot Grevis right in the family treasures each and every time he lets somebody blow by him on defense.

Start
Cousins
Thompson
Outlaw (needed for the tad extra shooting as Vasquez creates a similar paradigm to Reke)
McLemore
Vasquez

6th Thomas
7th Mbah a Moute

Spot in PPat & Hayes and Jimmer.
 
ShastaKingsFan said:
I'm not sure how you figure. Ben has been about as pure as you could hope for from behind the arc. How is a guy shooting like this not going to help a point gaurd in Vasquez who is looking for hot players to make shots?
Click to expand...

I don't think the impact will be drastic enough. It will help, but I don't think it will magically turn the way Vasquez has performed around.

Ben is shooting well, yes, but when you pair him with Greivis, who can't shoot from deep, and Mbah A Moute who can't shoot from deep while subtracting Thornton and Salmons (two players who can shoot from 3, but haven't hit at a good rate this season) I don't know if the net gain by those moves is enough to turn the offense around. LRMAM in particular does nothing for Cousins or Vasquez offensively, and I'd normally be fine with having someone in the lineup who is a designated defender, but this starting lineup has really struggled offensively outside of DeMarcus.

This wouldn't stop teams from doing what they are doing right now, which is completely converging on Cousins and clogging the paint, and it doesn't give us anyone who can attack the rim from the perimeter, or get to the FT line. We have no dribble penetration.

I'm not suggesting we don't start McLemore, Thornton has been awful this season, and Ben deserves it. I'm just not expecting any miracles here.

Which is why I'd prefer the second variation I mentioned, starting Outlaw over LRMAM.
 
MassachusettsKingsFan said:
I don't think the impact will be drastic enough.
Click to expand...

Drastic enough for what? To expect a bunch of wins? NO. The owner and the coach told us before training camp, that this season was not about win total. Nothing has changed in that regard.

Nobody is expecting any change to produce a bunch of wins. That's not what it's about this season. It's about establishing some solid things to build on. For starters, leave it on the floor. Coach is ready to find out who's got some fight and passion. I've got an idea who will and it will be interesting to see how it plays out
 
i think the changes will be at 2 and 3, maybe the 4.

GV
M16
outlaw
ppat
DMC

IT still the spark plug off the bench. i can see jimmer starting at the 2 if malone wants to continue to bring ben in off the bench to slowly bring him along. at the 3 i can see MaM get the start over outlaw too or maybe him starting at the 4 if we want to go small. considering we are going up against a nets team that consists of

williams
johnson
pierce
garnett
lopez

i think its gonna be a hard cover for jimmer at the 2 and for MaM at the 4 so i partially based my starting lineup on matchups for the next game
 
Bidi agree with Shasta, nobody asked what the best starting lineup and rotation was, the question was who would coach turn to as starters on Wednesday. I hope something is gained by any changes he makes but it is not likely to be a significant increase in wins although any win would be a significant increase. I do hope he doesn't hold back, that goes forward with a significant change.
 
If they do replace Patterson @PF it has to be for Prince Luke not Thompson we need high IQ players on the floor and Thompson is not that, Luke while he can't shot knows how to cut well and position himself on both ends. I see no reason why Outlaw cannot be our starting SF yes in the past he was practically useless but he's proven this season so far he bring energy and defense and can hit the open shot. Luke at @SF will only provide defense.

Our lateral quickness/speed/leaping ability with Ben Mac, Outlaw and LRMAM on the floor at the same time is great for defense and you can switch out and close out on shooters much easier with this line up than you can with Thompson/Patterson. The rebounding concern people have is due to poor rotations and the whole TEAM not rebounding or boxing out size is only a small part of it. If Mike Malone want's a defense team with enough fire power to keep us in games until Thomas/Thornton/Patterson/Thompaon are ready to come in all guns blazing than this is it

Vasquez, #M16,Outlaw,LRMAM,Cuz and it gives us one of the better benches with literally 4 out of the 5 being full time starters for most of their careers regardless of how poorly they have played this season. If Vasquez keeps playing poorly I would not be against IT starting but IT is a elite 6th man so maybe messing with that is not the right thing to do.
 
MLM has a ways to go to break into the starting lineup to get more experience against the experienced 2's in the league. Sure he impresses but in first Blazer game he had a stat line of goose eggs and 4 fouls in only 6 min. It is a learning process.

At the 4, PPat is not getting it done yet, mainly lack of scoring which causes other teams to sag back into the middle on Cuz making his life very clogged. One thought is play Outlaw as a stretch 4 and have Mbah a Moute share the 3 with McLemore. Then have JT come off bench at the 5 or with Hayes and PPat backing up the 4.

That would allow Jimmer with Vasquez in back court.

There will be changes made for sure for wednesday's game.
 
C - Cousins
PF - Thompson
SF - Outlaw
SG - McLemore
PG - Vasquez
6th - Thomas
7th - Mbah a Moute
8th - Patterson
9th - Fredette
10th - Hayes
11th - McCallum
12th - Ndiaye
 
ShastaKingsFan said:
Drastic enough for what? To expect a bunch of wins? NO. The owner and the coach told us before training camp, that this season was not about win total. Nothing has changed in that regard.

Nobody is expecting any change to produce a bunch of wins. That's not what it's about this season. It's about establishing some solid things to build on. For starters, leave it on the floor. Coach is ready to find out who's got some fight and passion. I've got an idea who will and it will be interesting to see how it plays out
Click to expand...


Drastic enough for anything. For any tangible change. For us to not be down 10 points by the second quarter most nights. Obviously I hope I'm wrong here.

And while coaches will say 'this season isn't about wins and losses', that's never really true. What was our best game this season? What game did WE dictate / carry the lead for most of? Yea, our one win against Denver on opening night. So while wins and losses aren't the end all be all, it is the easiest way to determine how we are playing. We've had one decent games (Denver) and five bad games (our 5 losses have all been bad, best loss was against the Clippers).

Wins are important to reinforce GOOD habits. If we can't win better than one game out of every five these guys aren't going to retain anything positive this season. It will be the last 5+ seasons all over again.
 
andremiller07 said:
If they do replace Patterson @PF it has to be for Prince Luke not Thompson we need high IQ players on the floor and Thompson is not that, Luke while he can't shot knows how to cut well and position himself on both ends. I see no reason why Outlaw cannot be our starting SF yes in the past he was practically useless but he's proven this season so far he bring energy and defense and can hit the open shot. Luke at @SF will only provide defense.
Click to expand...


CruzDude said:
At the 4, PPat is not getting it done yet, mainly lack of scoring which causes other teams to sag back into the middle on Cuz making his life very clogged. One thought is play Outlaw as a stretch 4 and have Mbah a Moute share the 3 with McLemore. Then have JT come off bench at the 5 or with Hayes and PPat backing up the 4.
Click to expand...

We're getting whipped on the boards again, losing the battle by -5.4rebs a night, 5th worst in the league. Again. As always with us. Going small isn't going to fix that.
 
what is going to happen is the same thing that has happened the last 4-5 years. we always try a differnt PF but in the end it will be JT once again. If i was him id be pissed at the constant effor to unset him with low level PF's
 
Entity said:
what is going to happen is the same thing that has happened the last 4-5 years. we always try a differnt PF but in the end it will be JT once again. If i was him id be pissed at the constant effor to unset him with low level PF's
Click to expand...

Then he should be asking himself or asking the coach why it is that he's somehow always the backup plan. Why we go and sign Carl Landry a year after resigning Jason Thompson.
 
MassachusettsKingsFan said:
I don't think the impact will be drastic enough. It will help, but I don't think it will magically turn the way Vasquez has performed around.

Ben is shooting well, yes, but when you pair him with Greivis, who can't shoot from deep, and Mbah A Moute who can't shoot from deep while subtracting Thornton and Salmons (two players who can shoot from 3, but haven't hit at a good rate this season) I don't know if the net gain by those moves is enough to turn the offense around. LRMAM in particular does nothing for Cousins or Vasquez offensively, and I'd normally be fine with having someone in the lineup who is a designated defender, but this starting lineup has really struggled offensively outside of DeMarcus.

This wouldn't stop teams from doing what they are doing right now, which is completely converging on Cousins and clogging the paint, and it doesn't give us anyone who can attack the rim from the perimeter, or get to the FT line. We have no dribble penetration.

I'm not suggesting we don't start McLemore, Thornton has been awful this season, and Ben deserves it. I'm just not expecting any miracles here.

Which is why I'd prefer the second variation I mentioned, starting Outlaw over LRMAM.
Click to expand...

Only way you can really start Luc Bah is by keeping Patterson in there as a stretch 4. GV can shoot so its not as bad as Tyreke. Bah Moute is our best best starting, no team should be starting Travis Outlaw in 2013.

Gv
Ben
Moute
Ppat
Cuz

That would too me be our best unit, we would have energy and hustle out there early to set the tone. Leave the 2nd q to bring the debbie downers in
 
Lineup to be the most competitive now:
PG - Vazquez (30 min)/Thomas (30 min)/McCallum
SG - McLemore (25 min)/Thornton (11 min)/Fredette
SF - Outlaw (28 min)/Moute (20 min)/Salmons
PF - Thompson (32 min)/Patterson (27 min)
C - Cousins (37 min)/Hayes/Ndiaye

Lineup to help us the most in the future:
PG - Vasquez (26 min)/Thomas (26 min)/McCallum
SG - Thornton (29 min)/McLemore (15 min)/Fredette
SF - Outlaw (28 min)/Moute (20 min)/Salmons
PF - Hayes (20 min)/Patterson (20 min)
C - Cousins (36 min)/Thompson (20 min)/Ndiaye

The reason for trotting out this lineup is to showcases players that we need to trade to help us be more successful in the future. Vasquez, Thomas, and Patterson are all restricted free agents next year. Right now, the only one I'm open to bringing back is Thomas and only as a sixth man. We can either let Vasquez and Patterson walk or we can look to do a sign and trade. By giving them substantial minutes, hopefully their stock will rise and thus net us more in return. Thornton, Outlaw, Moute, and Hayes all have 2 more years on their deals. It's possible we just let them expire after 2 years, but by giving them all heavy minutes, it will raise their stock and thus make it easier to trade them. Lastly, this rotation would probably not perform as well as the first one I gave which would give us a a higher percentage at landing the first pick in next year's draft.
 
I'm not sure why so many people think that Mbah a Moute and Jimmer are all of a sudden going to start for us after just barely cracking the rotation. I can see Thornton and Salmons dropping out of the rotation entirely because of excessive suckiness, which would then open the door for Jimmer and MaM to become the primary backups at SG and SF. But McLemore and Outlaw have clearly been the #2 options at SG and SF thus far, and it would make way more sense for those two to slide into the starting lineup than for two guys who have been on the fringe to make that leap.

Vasquez/IT
McLemore/Jimmer
Outlaw/Moute
JT/Patterson
Cousins/Hayes

Blowout minutes: McCallam, N'Diaye

Siberia: Thornton, Salmons
 
mac said:
Then he should be asking himself or asking the coach why it is that he's somehow always the backup plan. Why we go and sign Carl Landry a year after resigning Jason Thompson.
Click to expand...
Thompson's situation reminds me of a line that Tim Curry had, back in Disney's Three Musketeers movie:

8817bc6de180280e9b41a79cf42f17c1.jpg


Remember this: Kings come. And, Kings go. But, one thing remains the same. And that... is me!
 
mac said:
Then he should be asking himself or asking the coach why it is that he's somehow always the backup plan. Why we go and sign Carl Landry a year after resigning Jason Thompson.
Click to expand...

Malone needed at least one veteran who he had coached before and knew would be fully on board with his style, even at the expense of extra cash. They were fully aware of the coming growing pains and lack of wins...and no doubt the sense of 'panic' that would probably follow. With that in mind, if a coach doesn't have enough players on his side, there's no real chance to change the franchise culture and attitude
 
I don't predict any drastic changes so I'm predicting that the only swap is Outlaw for Salmons. I hope that we've seen the last of Salmons at SF.
 
Last edited:
Chupacabra said:
I don't predict any drastic changes so I'm predicting that the only swap is Outlaw for Salmons. I hope that we've seen the last of Salmons at SG.
Click to expand...

Based on the comments Malone made after the last game, I think there will be significant change. Thornton and Salmons may have to earn their way back into anything resembling minutes and the rest of the guys will have to play TEAM ball or face extended time on the bench themselves.

We aren't the only team having these problems. At least we're not the Knicks. ;)
 
John Galt said:
small and crazy I know, but the way I've seen Ben just jump out of the gym, and the way I've seen Jimmer be the only one on the floor with a brain… I'd like to see this:

Vasquez
Jimmer
Ben
Luc
DFC
Click to expand...

I think you might be right about this because this is the lineup that probably gives us a freakin chance at winning some games.
 
as with the last few seasons, this kind of talk is simply the rearranging of deck chairs on the titanic. that said, the starting unit must be productive outside of demarcus cousins. it simply cannot be as vacant and embarrassing as it's been. this team needs to maintain its competitive discipline in order to keep the fans in the building. this team also need to look to the future, to those few players that figure into their longterm plans. that said, i'd start ben mclemore, simply because marcus thornton and jimmer fredette clearly are not in the kings' longterm plans. i'd start mbah a moute at SF as soon as he's healthy enough to assume the role, and i'd start jason thompson because you can at least count on his hustle. i'd give vasquez time to develop chemistry with this reconfigured starting unit, and i'd continue bringing isaiah thomas off the bench as supercharged sixth man...
 
PG: Vasquez
SG: McLemore
SF: Outlaw
PF: Thompson
C: Cousins

That gives us a nice tall and athletic lineup. There are enough shooters to space the floor for big Cuz, and good rebounding throughout the entire group. First sub off the bench is IT. Thornton can come back when he's decided he cares about basketball again (and the dude is a talented player, I have no idea what's happened to him). Fredette was showing a little bit of promise, and seems to have improved his D a bit, so I think he's going to start getting more regular minutes (and we could certainly use his outside shooting). I don't think he's starting material, though, at least not at this point. He's not better than IT/Vasquez and I loath to start a guy of his size/athleticism at SG (and again, I don't think he's better than McLemore).
 
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