Players Turning On Paul

[Nikefutbolero]

So it seems that Paul is starting to lose the locker room with all his weird rotations and lack of playing time to some players. He's made some questionable line up decisions and I'm starting to agree with how the players feel. This makes me wonder, will we see another coaching change this offseason?

 

[Sac.1989]

not unless things get majorly out of hand. Losing the locker room is massive but i cant see it getting that far out. Its affecting Hawes & JT the most you'd say. May hardly counts as hes not really in the future plans

 

[Nikefutbolero]

not unless things get majorly out of hand. Losing the locker room is massive but i cant see it getting that far out. Its affecting Hawes & JT the most you'd say. May hardly counts as hes not really in the future plans

I'm sure they're not the only players that feel the same way. Besides, you want a coach that only makes the franchise players happy as opposed to the whole team? Sorry but that's not going to do it for me. The only player I'm sure who's really happy is Tyreke for obvious reasons. Too many times have I seen Beno subbed out when he's playing good, or Greene when he's doing well or somebody who had a game not even paying most game the next day.. I'm starting to get tired of it. A young team needs consistency in order to improve and there is none of that for this team..

 

[Asaf]

I'm sure they're not the only players that feel the same way. Besides, you want a coach that only makes the franchise players happy as opposed to the whole team? Sorry but that's not going to do it for me. The only player I'm sure who's really happy is Tyreke for obvious reasons. Too many times have I seen Beno subbed out when he's playing good, or Greene when he's doing well or somebody who had a game not even paying most game the next day.. I'm starting to get tired of it

I'm not sure Tyreke is happy either, and he was actually quoted in the article as well. Even when you're the franchise player, you want to have a supporting cast of players who are happy and know their role.

 

[Nikefutbolero]

I'm not sure Tyreke is happy either, and he was actually quoted in the article as well. Even when you're the franchise player, you want to have a supporting cast of players who are happy and know their role.

Well then there you have it....

 

[kingsnation]

So it seems that Paul is starting to lose the locker room with all his weird rotations and lack of playing time to some players.

Maybe I missed it, but says who? Some players being "frustrated," hardly equates to losing a locker room.

 

[DeMoN]

I think Westpaul needs to realize that we are rebuilding, Just because May and Nocioni come in and hit some shots, doesnt mean they stay in for the starters minutes. We need a set rotation, if it doesnt work out one night, hey, were rebuilding. And if it keeps on not working go in another direction with the players. But giving older players minutes younger players need is UNACCEPTABLE.

 

[BMiller52]

I think Westpaul needs to realize that we are rebuilding, Just because May and Nocioni come in and hit some shots, doesnt mean they stay in for the starters minutes. We need a set rotation, if it doesnt work out one night, hey, were rebuilding. And if it keeps on not working go in another direction with the players. But giving older players minutes younger players need is UNACCEPTABLE.

Yeah and guys are going to get frustrated when Spencer gets his starters minutes just because he's young even though he plays like trash 90% of the time.

 

[modestodave]

When it is players who were a big part of a team that won only 17 games last year and have played more than enough games and minutes this year to establish them selves as starting material for a bad team like the kings. I realy have a hard time giving them any credance. I did not get to see hardly any games last year, but I know that other than tyreke, omar, brockman, who are new this year. most of the players on this years team(except the players we just picked up via the martin trade) were on the last years team. PW said that this year was a 82 game exibition season and that we start building for a championship team starting in 2010-2011.

I am sure it might be frustrating for the players, but from what I have seen so far this year is that outside of evans, casspi, greene,brockman and now landry(too early to make a judgement), there are no other starting quality players on this team. They may be serivicable backups and bench players but I would be shocked if any of a Hawes, Thompson or benno is starting for a championship contending Kings team the next 2-3 years. Losing sucks, but we are getting better, and PW is using this year to completely tear down and get rid of any and all dead wood and useless pieces of a very bad basket ball team that was playing built over the last few years. I would hope that next year PW will have a different aproach to setting a stable lineup. After the coaching we have had the last few years, I feel that we have someone who knows where they are going and has a gameplan to get us there. The players might be unhappy, but we know what we have with our young tallented core of Evans, caspi, greene, - starters.
JT,Spencer,brockman - servicable backups
Landrey- too early to tell
Dorsey- too early to tell.
everybody else -release or trade asap.​

PW keep on doing what you are doing to build this foundation deep and strong focused on the future not what the best players of a 17 win basketball team wants.​

 

[QoooooQ]

No way will we be firing Westphal this year. Maybe if next season goes down the drain without improvement then it might become a possible option, but this summer the focus needs to be on assembling a competent frontcourt for him to work with.

But it's depressing news when players are sitting on the bench because of insubordination. I wish the season would just end quickly so we can move on to the draft lottery and free agency.

 

[JoMama]

Doing it Paul's way, we're falling behind 20 or 30 points in recent games to loser teams. How much worse can it get by just playing guys who fit into the future? Noc shouldn't be in the rotation if he's out of here next season. The guy is a mercenary anyway.

 

[Rookie]

Players need to suck it up and play.
You're on a rebuilding team, show up or shut up.

I have no problem with the rotation as it stands this season. Coaches finding and giving every player an opportunity to show their goods. It's up to them to earn their position. Evans and Beno are set as starter and backup. The rest are still on the drawing board.

 

[DocHolliday]

I see this from both sides. A bad team, a young team, Paul is tinkering, and honestly...shut up and play. That's what you get paid to do.

On the players side though you need to know what your role is. A player needs to feel like he isn't looking over his shoulder every minute, because you might be subbed out if you are not completely on top of your games for a few minutes.

And whether we like it or not, not matter what we think, if they players are truely unhappy and PW "isn't" addressing this with the team....we have a problem....a BIG problem.

Last nights loss to the Pistons in my opinion is a side effect of the entire team not being happy. Yes the entire team from the sounds of the article in question. Like someone else said Tyreke was quoted as saying ...yeah a lot of people are unhappy right now. They feel like they don't know what their role is"

As a manager which is what PW is in part, you have to address these things when they are out in the open, both as a group and with individual players that wish to speak with you one on one.

To top it off someone called into Koz's show yesterday and said he lives in Arizona when PW was the coach. He said even when the team was loaded with Barkley, etc., This is what he ALWAYS did. He never stopped tinkering, he NEVER had a steady starting lineup.

If that's the case the excuse that we've heard from PW, and the assistants that what PW is doing is typical to do with a young team. It sounds like PW's philosphy to base your lineup strictly on the match up on night by night basis. If that's the case it can get confusing.

 

[Bricklayer]

To top it off someone called into Koz's show yesterday and said he lives in Arizona when PW was the coach. He said even when the team was loaded with Barkley, etc., This is what he ALWAYS did. He never stopped tinkering, he NEVER had a steady starting lineup.

If that's the case the excuse that we've heard from PW, and the assistants that what PW is doing is typical to do with a young team. It sounds like PW's philosphy to base your lineup strictly on the match up on night by night basis. If that's the case it can get confusing.

You know, I never paid close enough attention to that back in the day. If true it would certainly be a major concern. Went back and looked at the stats from those years and could not really tell -- they always had injuries, so its hard to sort out how many of the changes were tinkering vs. injury related. During his Seattle years it does not seem to have been true -- 4 of his 5 starters there wnet over 30min/gm, and 1 (Payton) went over 40min/gm.

Its nice to say Spencer was wrong and all, and maybe he was. But the fact of the matetr is it really does not matter at some level. People often treaat coahcing like there's a moral imperative of superior/inferiors involved, and there's not. All that matters is you get results, no matter how you do it. And if you lose the locker room, it makes no difference whatsoever whetehr you were "right" and they were "wrong". You will fail, and you will be fired eventually. Basically if its a problem for the players, its a problem for you, no matter how "right" you may think the strategy. I can only hope and assume that this is being addresed behind closed doors with the team rather than just a slapping down a public shaming as warning. You can't let it fester.

 

[Rookie]

On the players side though you need to know what your role is. A player needs to feel like he isn't looking over his shoulder every minute, because you might be subbed out if you are not completely on top of your games for a few minutes. .

I personnally think if a player thinks like that he's a selfish player. If you can't perform to help your team then sit down and give another player an opportunity to try and help the team win. Get your act together and be ready to rock when the coach call you back in.

And whether we like it or not, not matter what we think, if they players are truely unhappy and PW "isn't" addressing this with the team....we have a problem....a BIG problem.

Agreed but so far I find mostly Hawes being unhappy. Everyone else is just frustrated because of the losing streaks.

Last nights loss to the Pistons in my opinion is a side effect of the entire team not being happy. Yes the entire team from the sounds of the article in question. Like someone else said Tyreke was quoted as saying ...yeah a lot of people are unhappy right now. They feel like they don't know what their role is"

They were in cruise mode in the 2nd and 3rd quarter not 1st or 4th. I doubt it has anything to do with their unhappiness but more on chemistry and lack of experience. Their offense is very streaky as well. When they get it on they can really light the building but when they can't it's like air-ball everywhere.

As a manager which is what PW is in part, you have to address these things when they are out in the open, both as a group and with individual players that wish to speak with you one on one.

Maybe I don't expect much from my boss except, tell me what you want accomplished and I go take care of it. But you're right he has to addressed any issues that they may have and not go off like he did. A little harshed.

To top it off someone called into Koz's show yesterday and said he lives in Arizona when PW was the coach. He said even when the team was loaded with Barkley, etc., This is what he ALWAYS did. He never stopped tinkering, he NEVER had a steady starting lineup.

If that's the case the excuse that we've heard from PW, and the assistants that what PW is doing is typical to do with a young team. It sounds like PW's philosphy to base your lineup strictly on the match up on night by night basis. If that's the case it can get confusing.

If it's true then we'll see it again next season. I hope it isn't but I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. I expect a more stable rotation by next season and give him this season as a training camp to figure out who's who and what they're capable of.

 

[Section 101]

I personnally think if a player thinks like that he's a selfish player. If you can't perform to help your team then sit down and give another player an opportunity to try and help the team win. Get your act together and be ready to rock when the coach call you back in.



Agreed but so far I find mostly Hawes being unhappy. Everyone else is just frustrated because of the losing streaks.



They were in cruise mode in the 2nd and 3rd quarter not 1st or 4th. I doubt it has anything to do with their unhappiness but more on chemistry and lack of experience. Their offense is very streaky as well. When they get it on they can really light the building but when they can't it's like air-ball everywhere.



Maybe I don't expect much from my boss except, tell me what you want accomplished and I go take care of it. But you're right he has to addressed any issues that they may have and not go off like he did. A little harshed.



If it's true then we'll see it again next season. I hope it isn't but I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. I expect a more stable rotation by next season and give him this season as a training camp to figure out who's who and what they're capable of.

I guess this is the "system" that Gavin always refers to when talking about Westphal. Cause I sure don't see any other kind of "system". Unless its an offense that scores 80 points a game.

 

[bajaden]

I thought we had a problem before any of this happened. So this only adds to my suspicions thats there's unrest amongst the players. I find it interesting that Westphal chose to only throw Hawes under the bus by not playing him, and then at the postgame press conference backed up the bus over him.

I know that Westphal is having medical problems at home with his wife, and I'm sure that doesn't put him in the best frame of mind right now. Personally I think a closed door meeting with Hawes, May, and Tyreke, or perhaps the whole team would have been more appropiate, and hopefully more productive than making a public display out of Spencer. When I owned my own business I did what Westphal just did, and I always regretted it.

If you can avoid it, you never, never publicly embarrass an employee. Yeah, I know, that employee just took a shot at you, or your way of running things. But your suspossed to be the older and hopefully wiser one. He's the young and immature one. Your the one that should know better, and you show him you know better by acting in the appropiate way. Not acting in kind.

I hope that Westphal and Hawes can patch things up. The Kings have time and money invested in Hawes. And whether he becomes an important part of the team, or is eventually traded to another team, his value is whats important. The higher value he has as a player, the bigger an asset he is to the team.

As long as Westphal continues to juggle lineups with no rhyme or reason, at least to me, there will be a lack of cohesion. There will be confusion and mistakes made. As I've stated previously, I'm willing to give him the rest to this season to see what he has and how he wants to use it. But if he starts doing this next season, then he loses me. Its never worked and it never will.

 

[jayzfelon]

I am no basketball guru but I played a lot of basketball. The thing I dont understand with these players is they act like a 3 year old. When your on the court you are supposed to know what your role is and there is no need for your coach to hold your hand the entire game to know your role. When your on the court give it your all. All this is, is trying to find excuse for not having a great game. They wonder why? They are always looking at their shoulder and that should never be the case. Just play the game. These players are all too selfish to think of themselves instead of thinking of how they can contribute to their team and win.

One more thing, this is a five man game and the ball should be move around. When I watch this games and especially the last three games none of this is happening.It gives the opponents a chance to read your play. We take too much time to set up our plays. I am not even a pro but when watching this games I already knew what the next step they will make 95% of the time.

I have watched all the games from tv start to finish and last night was the first to just makes me want to turn the tv off at the second half.

 

[JJ22L]

I completely agree with you Bajaden. Like I said in the game thread, there is no secret video-game-like combination of buttons (players) that is going to unlock the super secret championship kings mode.

I have friends that are lakers fans (yes, I hate to admit I DO have those kinds of friends) that are asking me why Udoka and Noc are still getting minutes over the likes of Donte and Spencer. These are people that have seen maybe 4 kings games all year, and already get it.

I read here somewhere that the pistons loss was just the team being young. BS. The pistons loss was an angry squad of players going through the motions to get the game over with. Can't blame the lack of heart on Martin this time guys, this one was on the coach.

In my profession (law firm manager) i manage a bunch of egos (attorneys- sorry brick) and one thing I have learned is that you do NOT let in house quarrels public. Period. As a father, sure, I've grounded/verbally scolded my children, but as a coach, that kind of discipline doesn't work in the NBA. Whether coaches like it or not, the players are more important and are in charge. You lose the players and you lose your job.

Just so I don't get stampeded by those who advocate the benching, I am not at all saying I am against Spencer being benched by PW to prove a point. I am saying I am against the benching in connection with PW making a statement (verbal and non-verbal) out of one player in particular. More than just Spencer made the comments PW is supposedly "punishing" him for. Alienating a player like that is going to anger the player more than motivate him in my opinion. Spencer just started playing well again and now I see this as being another reset of him back to his angry and non-productive ways. (I also understand that if PW would have done this to 'Reke there would have been a public outcry.)

If what has been said is true, and PW has lost the loyalty of his soldiers, I have a feeling the remaining 20+ games are going to be disgusting. To be honest, I don't blame the players. Assigning roles and promoting a sense of job security is an incredibly important part of getting the best out of your employees. In PW's case, I think he is doing a very poor job of it.

 

[DocHolliday]

I personnally think if a player thinks like that he's a selfish player. If you can't perform to help your team then sit down and give another player an opportunity to try and help the team win. Get your act together and be ready to rock when the coach call you back in.

That's one way to look at it, but you have to remember who these people are. They are "competitors", which means they are "competitive". They want to play, they want to win, but they also need to know their role. Roles are very important on any kind of team; in business, and in sports.

Agreed but so far I find mostly Hawes being unhappy. Everyone else is just frustrated because of the losing streaks.

This is pure speculation on our part. We aren't those people. I would venture to say that Noc, May, Hawes, Casspi, and maybe Ime are furstrated.. Donte will do whatever, I could see Francisco getting frustrated but he's also a team guy, Tyreke does whatever is needed. I think Beno was getting frustrated, but Martin and Sergio being traded eased that up. I think Thompson may be a little frustrated as well, but not too much. Again, just my opinion

They were in cruise mode in the 2nd and 3rd quarter not 1st or 4th. I doubt it has anything to do with their unhappiness but more on chemistry and lack of experience. Their offense is very streaky as well. When they get it on they can really light the building but when they can't it's like air-ball everywhere.

Only one thing is sure to me about that. Tyreke plays hard no matter what.

Maybe I don't expect much from my boss except, tell me what you want accomplished and I go take care of it. But you're right he has to addressed any issues that they may have and not go off like he did. A little harshed.

You should expect more out of your boss. It is our nature to want to know what our role is, and exactly what you want from us as people in any of our relationships. Doesn't mean we want someone watching over our shoulder every second, but we want to know what is expected, and as a manager it is your job to let your employees know EXACTLY what is expected. If they don't know what is expected, how do you expect them to achieve? How do you review them, and note areas of weakness, and areas of improvement if there aren't expectations?

If it's true then we'll see it again next season. I hope it isn't but I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. I expect a more stable rotation by next season and give him this season as a training camp to figure out who's who and what they're capable of.

Trust me I want PW to succeed. I don't want the coaching carousel to continue. But, has ANY team won a championship with thier line up that juggled around?? If he's doing it for now while he's figuring out what he has, and what will work fine. But if this team becomes a playoff contender I expect at that point there will be a set starting 5 with little change except for injury, and an obvioius match up issue that has to be taken care of. If not I think it will get tiresome for the players, the fans, and the organization.

 

[Rookie]

That's one way to look at it, but you have to remember who these people are. They are "competitors", which means they are "competitive". They want to play, they want to win, but they also need to know their role. Roles are very important on any kind of team; in business, and in sports.

Agreed roles are very important but you don't get assigned to it out of no where...you have to prove that you are capable of being in that role.

IMO we're still trying to figure that out. EX: Donte..SF/SG/PF? While we have glimpsed of some of the bad and worst at each position we still have this season to evaluate. No need to permanently assigned him a role yet.

This is pure speculation on our part. We aren't those people. I would venture to say that Noc, May, Hawes, Casspi, and maybe Ime are furstrated.. Donte will do whatever, I could see Francisco getting frustrated but he's also a team guy, Tyreke does whatever is needed. I think Beno was getting frustrated, but Martin and Sergio being traded eased that up. I think Thompson may be a little frustrated as well, but not too much. Again, just my opinion

Could be...if so the coach does need to take care of it.

You should expect more out of your boss. It is our nature to want to know what our role is, and exactly what you want from us as people in any of our relationships. Doesn't mean we want someone watching over our shoulder every second, but we want to know what is expected, and as a manager it is your job to let your employees know EXACTLY what is expected. If they don't know what is expected, how do you expect them to achieve? How do you review them, and note areas of weakness, and areas of improvement if there aren't expectations?

I know my role when I applied for the position. However if I want a different/better role I need to prove to them I deservere that role. As for management, I agreed.

Trust me I want PW to succeed. I don't want the coaching carousel to continue. But, has ANY team won a championship with thier line up that juggled around?? If he's doing it for now while he's figuring out what he has, and what will work fine. But if this team becomes a playoff contender I expect at that point there will be a set starting 5 with little change except for injury, and an obvioius match up issue that has to be taken care of. If not I think it will get tiresome for the players, the fans, and the organization.

We're not playing for the championship...but like most suggested we have to give PW till next season to get us a stable rotation and not juggling like he had this season.

Overall I agreed with a lot of what you said.

 

[Rookie]

Whether coaches like it or not, the players are more important and are in charge. You lose the players and you lose your job.

Totally disagreed...couldn't even understand how a manager would have this view point. The day when the player becomes in charge is the day the coach loses control. Once that happen it's over for him.

Personally I think coaches are more important than player..just as manager are more important than the workers even though the workers are the one that get things done.

 

[JJ22L]

Totally disagreed...couldn't even understand how a manager would have this view point. The day when the player becomes in charge is the day the coach loses control. Once that happen it's over for him.

Personally I think coaches are more important than player..just as manager are more important than the workers even though the workers are the one that get things done.

Kobe Bryant anybody?

Hmmm...I think Cleveland asked LeBron if Jamison was an ok fit...

There wouldn't be a public outcry if Westphal benched Tyreke instead of Spencer?

The press was giving the Miami coach props because he has DWade backing him?

Get real, it's a player/star player controlled game. That one comment in my post was not alluding to a direct comparison between the NBA being an employee controlled game and my job being an employee controlled field. Your statement is reaching between two separate points in my argument.

 

[kennadog]

First, I don't like anyone to be making negative comments to the press and I don't like the comment by PW. Settle it behind closed doors.

But Hawes got benched, because this isn't his first "unhappy" comments to the media. Not only that, PW has been sending messages to Hawes almost all year with little to show for it.

PW definitely sent "messages" to Donte , too, early on. Donte has responded. Hawes apparently has his message options set to ignore PW.

BTW, if Paul's wife is having health problems, then my best wishes go out to his wife hoping she will get well soon.

 

[kennadog]

There wouldn't be a public outcry if Westphal benched Tyreke instead of Spencer?

Tyreke is way more mature than Spencer. Like light years, at this point.

 

[Rookie]

Kobe Bryant anybody?

Yep Kobe learned it well...he learned not to mess with a good coach when you got one.

If you're talking about values...that's a different story.

 

[Rookie]

Kobe Bryant anybody?

Hmmm...I think Cleveland asked LeBron if Jamison was an ok fit...

There wouldn't be a public outcry if Westphal benched Tyreke instead of Spencer?

The press was giving the Miami coach props because he has DWade backing him?

Get real, it's a player/star player controlled game. That one comment in my post was not alluding to a direct comparison between the NBA being an employee controlled game and my job being an employee controlled field. Your statement is reaching between two separate points in my argument.

You're talking about investment versus operation.

You said players not superstar. They're in a whole different league..it's like a 12 year old going to a University.

 

[DocHolliday]

Agreed roles are very important but you don't get assigned to it out of no where...you have to prove that you are capable of being in that role.

IMO we're still trying to figure that out. EX: Donte..SF/SG/PF? While we have glimpsed of some of the bad and worst at each position we still have this season to evaluate. No need to permanently assigned him a role yet.



Could be...if so the coach does need to take care of it.



I know my role when I applied for the position. However if I want a different/better role I need to prove to them I deservere that role. As for management, I agreed.






We're not playing for the championship...but like most suggested we have to give PW till next season to get us a stable rotation and not juggling like he had this season.

Overall I agreed with a lot of what you said.

PS. Donte is a natural 3. People on or around the team can see that, and I can see that. I expect Westphal to see that. He's an athletic guy that can go inside and out. He can guard 3's. He cannot guard 2's that well, nd he doesn't have the skills to play the four, or play the way a four needs to. He's a 3.

 

[JJ22L]

Yep Kobe learned it well...he learned not to mess with a good coach when you got one.

If you're talking about values...that's a different story.

Uh, what?

I give you, ladies and gentlemen, the Kobe Bryant timeline.

Kobe complains because team is losing and threatens to leave/bashed PJ --> upper management makes moves to surround Kobe with talent ---> team starts winning again/becomes an elite team ---> Kobe is now happy that team is winning ---> Kobe stops complaining.

Tell me exactly where, in the last 5 years (since Shaq was traded), the Lakers management hasn't succumb to the demands of the player known as Kobe Bryant?

Coaches are judged on the teams W/L record. In fact, of any job in professional sports, coaches are the most scrutinized over the teams record. The teams record is contingent on the players. If the players give up on the coach, the coach loses his job. I'm not sure how you and I got off on the tangent we got off on (my apologies).

My point was, PW should not have pushed this event into the media forum. Benching Hawes is one thing, making a public announcement about it is another.

 

[JJ22L]

You're talking about investment versus operation.

You said players not superstar. They're in a whole different league..it's like a 12 year old going to a University.

I don't understand your analogy.