Peja Stojakovic: King For Life?

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
Which is another reason why I've long thought that Stojakovic is the most expendable player from our laughable "core." There seems to be a vocal minority who thinks it's Miller, but Miller's presence is essential for Bibby's effectiveness. Bibby's performance dropped off precipitously after Webber was traded; if we get rid of Miller too, it may well drop off beyond his ability to be effective.
 
piksi said:
I did not want to comment them because I tried to avoid Mike Bibby in the thread which is about Pedja.

Bibby is neither better not more valuable player for the Kings. Sacramento Kings will NEVER win anything as long as it's guards play defense as awful as they do at the moment. Let's face it, all of 4 semi finalists ( Spurs, Pistons, Suns and Heat) have guards that are unguardable by Bibby standards. All of them have also other "stars" which makes double teaming of the guards impossible. Basically a classical checkmate.
Additionally, we will see how good Mike is next season with no Webber.
Still never addressed the points that I made in my post.

Sacramento will never do anything as long as it's most talented player continues to wilt down the stretch.

Peja can be a better player, but Mike does so much more for the Kings, is more reliable, and I'd put all the marbles in his pouch before I put them in Peja's.
 

piksi

Hall of Famer
Superman said:
Peja can be a better player, but Mike does so much more for the Kings, is more reliable, and I'd put all the marbles in his pouch before I put them in Peja's.
Much more being ????

More reliable ???

Based on what ???

Webber is gone and so is the 2 man game.

Mike Bibby is great in the last couple minutes of the game but he is not the guy that generally gets us in the situation to compeate in those last couple minutes. He can not compeate with any PG of any value on defensive end. We were done cheating on defense when DC left. Mobley could not guard his and Bibby's man the way that DC could. We got exposed even worse. To get a ring we have to deal with Spurs backcourt. They are killing us on penetration for years. Gee, I wonder why ?
 
piksi said:
Much more being ????

More reliable ???

Based on what ???

Webber is gone and so is the 2 man game.

Mike Bibby is great in the last couple minutes of the game but he is not the guy that generally gets us in the situation to compeate in those last couple minutes.
I addressed all of that in the first post regarding Mike and Peja, and who I'd pay more. The same post that you never commented on.

He can not compeate with any PG of any value on defensive end. We were done cheating on defense when DC left. Mobley could not guard his and Bibby's man the way that DC could. We got exposed even worse. To get a ring we have to deal with Spurs backcourt. They are killing us on penetration for years. Gee, I wonder why ?
The defensive liability is the biggest thing, and it's there. Not much we can do about it right now, especially since we're already locked into paying Mike big money for the next 6 years.

On Peja's part, however, there are more liabilities (having to do with things like his desire to be a King and his propensity to disappear when we need him the most) than just his defense -- Peja not being a "stopper" himself, though he is adequate most nights -- and at this point, there's no telling what is going to become of Peja as a player.

When is he going to start averaging enough rebounds to not be considered a softie at 6'10"? When is he going to figure out how to score against the elite defenders like Bruce Bowen, or even the not so elite like Trenton Hassell, or even the players that should have no chance against him but have frustrated him throughout his career like Brevin Knight? When are we not going to have to worry about whether or not Peja is going to show up in the big games, or even be there in the fourth quarter of smaller games? There are a lot of question marks regarding this guy, and they are the same question marks that have been there for the past three or four years. Pretty soon, it's not going to be "is Peja really soft?" It's going to be "Peja is really soft." And I don't want to see the team locked into paying a softie with a nice shot $100 million.

I like him and want to see him stay, but I don't want to see him get a whole lot of money to stay. Nothing near max, and not even as much as Mike got (I should say now that I think Mike got paid too much on the heels of his performance in the 2002 playoffs). But I do want to see him stay here. It's just a question of how much he wants to be here and how much he's worth. And I don't think he's worth $10 million a year. Not now, and certainly not six years into the future.

I should also say that if the Kings traded Webber in order to keep Peja, they traded him for the wrong reason. There were other reasons to move him (salary and injury history being the most valid, everything else being irrelevant to me), but if management was motivated to trade him by their desire to keep Peja around, they didn't do their job.
 
Superman said:
I like him and want to see him stay, but I don't want to see him get a whole lot of money to stay. Nothing near max, and not even as much as Mike got (I should say now that I think Mike got paid too much on the heels of his performance in the 2002 playoffs). But I do want to see him stay here. It's just a question of how much he wants to be here and how much he's worth. And I don't think he's worth $10 million a year. Not now, and certainly not six years into the future.
So in other words its a case of having your cake and eating it too.

People need to realise that Peja is a VERY good player despite all of his flaws and to say that he isn't worth $10 million a year now is ridicilous. He is probably one of the biggest bargains going around at his current salary, taking everything into account.

If we want to keep Peja we have to offer him a reasonable contract that is worth some $75 million over 6 years or he WILL be offered more somewhere else.

Peja has flaws as does EVERY player but some of the bagging he cops here is ridicilous. Maybe he just should leave us high and dry and leave us at the end of next season for nothing so then some of you would have a lot more ammunition to bag him.

Despite ALL of his short comings you still have a player who will give you 20ppg at high efficiency and play decent defence.

Lastly since when does size have a major say in how much rebounds a player should have. If it did then Yao and Ilgauskas would be averaging 15 per game. Yes Peja needs to improve his rebounding but to say its crap because he is 6'10 is just plain ignorant.
 
Čarolija said:
Lastly since when does size have a major say in how much rebounds a player should have. If it did then Yao and Ilgauskas would be averaging 15 per game. Yes Peja needs to improve his rebounding but to say its crap because he is 6'10 is just plain ignorant.
That still does not excuse the fact that he does not rebound like a SF should reguardless of height. That is the one of major factors of his play and I think ir will be factored in how much he will be offered.
 
AleksandarN said:
That still does not excuse the fact that he does not rebound like a SF should reguardless of height. That is the one of major factors of his play and I think ir will be factored in how much he will be offered.
And I don't disagree because I think Peja definetly needs to improve his rebounding. If he can average 6-7 per game then I think that would be pretty solid. However, people ALWAYS mention his height when talking about rebounding and its got nothing to do with his height. He might be 6'10 but that doesn't mean he should have rebounding numbers of Webber or any other 6'10 forward out there. He plays a different role to those 2 and if your game is perimeter oriented you are not going to average as many rebounds a low post player of same height.

If Peja can give you 20+ points and 6-7 rebounds per game along with decent defence then surely you would be happy with that. He is an efficient player regardless of all of his obvious flaws and to suggest he is not worth $10 million is not dealing with reality.
 
Čarolija said:
If Peja can give you 20+ points and 6-7 rebounds per game along with decent defence then surely you would be happy with that. He is an efficient player regardless of all of his obvious flaws and to suggest he is not worth $10 million is not dealing with reality.
money and "if" statements do not make good bedfellows.
 
Čarolija said:
And I don't disagree because I think Peja definetly needs to improve his rebounding. If he can average 6-7 per game then I think that would be pretty solid. However, people ALWAYS mention his height when talking about rebounding and its got nothing to do with his height. He might be 6'10 but that doesn't mean he should have rebounding numbers of Webber or any other 6'10 forward out there. He plays a different role to those 2 and if your game is perimeter oriented you are not going to average as many rebounds a low post player of same height.

If Peja can give you 20+ points and 6-7 rebounds per game along with decent defence then surely you would be happy with that. He is an efficient player regardless of all of his obvious flaws and to suggest he is not worth $10 million is not dealing with reality.
I've never used his height to explain Peja's bad rebounding performances. And your right it's got nothing to do with his height. However it has everything to do with his lack of effort, his inability it seems to bend over, to box out, to simply fight for position or the ball.
 
BigSong said:
I've never used his height to explain Peja's bad rebounding performances. And your right it's got nothing to do with his height. However it has everything to do with his lack of effort, his inability it seems to bend over, to box out, to simply fight for position or the ball.
Well I agree 100% with THAT observation :)
 
Padrino said:
money and "if" statements do not make good bedfellows.
Even with his current stats of 20ppg and deplorable 4 rpg, Peja is still worth more than he is getting paind now and would be worth $10million. If he was a FA now, I am sure Cavs would be knocking at his door and offering him that sort of money if not more ;)
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
Is Peja worth more than he's being paid now? Perhaps. Is he worth $10 million? That's something only the Maloofs can decide.
 
Čarolija said:
So in other words its a case of having your cake and eating it too.

People need to realise that Peja is a VERY good player despite all of his flaws and to say that he isn't worth $10 million a year now is ridicilous. He is probably one of the biggest bargains going around at his current salary, taking everything into account.

If we want to keep Peja we have to offer him a reasonable contract that is worth some $75 million over 6 years or he WILL be offered more somewhere else.

Peja has flaws as does EVERY player but some of the bagging he cops here is ridicilous. Maybe he just should leave us high and dry and leave us at the end of next season for nothing so then some of you would have a lot more ammunition to bag him.

Despite ALL of his short comings you still have a player who will give you 20ppg at high efficiency and play decent defence.
And he should get a contract worthy of a one-dimensional shooter who plays decent defense, not a max contract or anything near max. $75 million for 6 years is too much, not necessarily now, but in six years, definitely. Unless we could find a way to front-load a contract like that, I don't want to see it offered. We'd be paying a 34 year old shooter (AKA, Allan Houston) $16-17 million a year. No thanks.

Lastly since when does size have a major say in how much rebounds a player should have. If it did then Yao and Ilgauskas would be averaging 15 per game. Yes Peja needs to improve his rebounding but to say its crap because he is 6'10 is just plain ignorant.
Huh?

It's no big surprise that the best rebounders in the League are most often the bigger players. The bigger you are, the better you should rebound.

You're right in the sense that rebounding is about effort, and thus you have smaller players that are among the best rebounders of all time (Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman, Charles Barkley), but that's exactly what my point is. With a little bit of effort, Peja would average 8 rebounds a game. As is, he only grabbed 4 a game last season, which is the same amount that Mike Bibby, 6'1", was able to grab. Unacceptable.

And regarding perimeter-oriented players being able to rebound, look at Kobe or McGrady or Grant Hill or Steve Francis or Jason Kidd or Lebron James or Paul Pierce or Bobby Simmons ... all of whom averaged considerably more rebounder per game than Peja, all of whom are shorter than Peja. Fact of the matter is, if Peja simply tried, he could be a much better rebounder, as evidenced by the games that he's had where he'll break out with 10-12 rebounds, just by getting in position when a shot goes up. We all know he's not the most athletic, and no one expects him to rebound like Shawn Marion, but if he just tried... then again, that's the complaint about his game all around. He doesn't try hard enough.

By the way, Big Z and Yao are pee-poor rebounders for their size.
 
Superman said:
. We all know he's not the most athletic, and no one expects him to rebound like Shawn Marion, but if he just tried... then again, that's the complaint about his game all around. He doesn't try hard enough.
Is that really the common-held concern regarding Peja, by the majority of Kings fans? I thought justifyable criticisms were (in no particular order)...he didnt show up at clutch time, wasnt physical enough and could sometimes tend to 'go missing' on court.

Maybe 'trying' is tied up with those specifics, but from what i remember of the last game vs Sonics we couldnt have asked him to try any harder...he did all he could.

Perhaps we have to add 'inconsistency' to the list!
 
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
Which is another reason why I've long thought that Stojakovic is the most expendable player from our laughable "core." There seems to be a vocal minority who thinks it's Miller, but Miller's presence is essential for Bibby's effectiveness. Bibby's performance dropped off precipitously after Webber was traded; if we get rid of Miller too, it may well drop off beyond his ability to be effective.
I don't get it: Miller can't be traded so that Bibby would be effective... But what makes Bibby less expendable than Pedja ?
 
VF21 said:
Is Peja worth more than he's being paid now? Perhaps.
Huh ? His current deal is a total robbery (I have a theory that he was not intentionally given enough playing time and a starting role in the first 2 seasons so that the Kings would be able to sign him to this deal).

Anyway, the only people who can give Pedja problems on offense are the league's best defensive players (two players mentioned, Bowen and Hassell are ellite defenders). These players rarely produce anything on the offensive end, and the Kings pretty much always win the matchup at the SF (most recently against Sonics' Rashard Lewis).

So I would not take those critics of Pedja's game too seriously.

The main problem with Pedja's game is clearly his rebounding.
 
sloter said:
The main problem with Pedja's game is clearly his rebounding.
I disagree... the main problem with Pedja's game is his toughness (or lack of). It affects his rebounding, he gets pushed around a lot & gets shut down by aggressive defenders, NEVER dives for lose balls, shows no hustle... I can go on and on, but we all know...
 
sloter said:
Huh ? His current deal is a total robbery (I have a theory that he was not intentionally given enough playing time and a starting role in the first 2 seasons so that the Kings would be able to sign him to this deal).

Come on, dude. That's just silly.

As for him getting shut down by the better defenders of the league, that's kind of the point. You don't hand out max dollars to guys who cannot transcend adversity, even Michael Redd. Bad move by the Bucks and/or Cavs. What was Steve Kerr's biggest contract?
 
Londonking said:
Is that really the common-held concern regarding Peja, by the majority of Kings fans? I thought justifyable criticisms were (in no particular order)...he didnt show up at clutch time, wasnt physical enough and could sometimes tend to 'go missing' on court.

Maybe 'trying' is tied up with those specifics, but from what i remember of the last game vs Sonics we couldnt have asked him to try any harder...he did all he could.

Perhaps we have to add 'inconsistency' to the list!
For once.

I really don't want to make it seem like I'm knocking Peja just because I don't like him. If you were here last summer, you'd remember me defending him when others were saying that he chokes every year in the playoffs. But that's neither here nor there. And allow me to apologize in advance for the length of this post.

The point is that he often disappears for long stretches at a time, when you don't even notice him on the court. To be fair, this is not his fault alone. For instance, in the second half of the first game of the playoffs (maybe the second, I'm not quite sure) he didn't touch the ball at all on the offensive end for more than half of the third quarter. That's unacceptable because once he did touch the rock, he drained a jumpshot. As a team, we should be looking for our most potent offensive weapon. BUT, as a player (especially a player as talented as he is), he should be putting himself in situations where we can't help but get him the ball so that he can perform. He should be demanding the ball and making it happen. While the team failed to get him involved for some reason, he's just as much to blame for not making himself known.

And these are the things that I'm talking about. When Peja isn't scoring and isn't involved offensively, he's not involved period. I'm blanketing, but as a rule, it's the truth. There have been games when he finished with 15 points and 12 rebounds, but very few. And that's another thing, is that we know that he has the ability to do more than score, but he doesn't apply himself more than once every ten games.

Peja should be a matchup nightmare. He's big and strong (I'd kill to be 6'10", 235lbs, and I'd be a superstar), can shoot as well as anyone ever, has the ability - it's rarely displayed, but we've all seen it - to put the ball on the floor and go to the hoop, has the tools to be able to murder any smaller defender if he just fought for position and developed a go-to move, and he has the type of team that will find a way to get him involved. So what's the problem?

More often than not, it's that Peja doesn't give 100%. And that's all that pisses me off about him. I wouldn't care if it was Game 7 of the Finals and he had 3 points, 3 rebounds and 1 assist, as long as when I watched the game I saw him working his *** off, chasing loose balls, boxing out, crashing boards, fighting to get open, trying to keep his man from scoring, and all the other things that Peja is NOT known for doing.

And the reality of it is that if Peja played like that on a regular basis, he'd be a top ten player in the NBA, easily. 25 points every night, 8 or 9 rebounds, 2 steals, and an A+ in Bricklayer's post game grades, night in/night out. A max player.

But that's not a description of Peja's game. And it could be. That's what frustrates me. Not that his game is inconsistent, but that his effort is.
 

piksi

Hall of Famer
Yoda said:
Peja cant get it done when it matters...Bibby can.
We all saw how that went.

Game one - last defensive possesion where we needed the stop to stay in the game - Bibby set the "offside trap" - unfortunately it is Basketball and not soccer so Sonics scored and we lost. (Just one of the examples how he "can get it done"

The fact is that neither Pedja nor Bibby did get anything done yet.
 
Superman said:
More often than not, it's that Peja doesn't give 100%. And that's all that pisses me off about him. I wouldn't care if it was Game 7 of the Finals and he had 3 points, 3 rebounds and 1 assist, as long as when I watched the game I saw him working his *** off, chasing loose balls, boxing out, crashing boards, fighting to get open, trying to keep his man from scoring, and all the other things that Peja is NOT known for doing.

And the reality of it is that if Peja played like that on a regular basis, he'd be a top ten player in the NBA, easily. 25 points every night, 8 or 9 rebounds, 2 steals, and an A+ in Bricklayer's post game grades, night in/night out. A max player.

But that's not a description of Peja's game. And it could be. That's what frustrates me. Not that his game is inconsistent, but that his effort is.
You know I was not going to post a reply because I might be called a Pedja appologist or defender or whatever I do not care anymore. People who say that he does not give 100% is total bullcrap. I see him all the time in the playoffs this year and last giving 100% on the defensive and offensive side. The problem with Pedja is he is soft as hell and is a finnesse player. He is not a Ben Wallace type of player. That there lies the problem can he add toughness to his game, well he better if he want to go to the next level.
 
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piksi said:
In this case being foreigner would be one of the reasons
You know that is complete bull. Look at Webber last year and how much critisizism he was facing being a foreigner has nothing to do with it. I do not know why you even bring this crap up to begin with.
 
piksi said:
In this case being foreigner would be one of the reasons
Bull****.

This post isn't worth the webspace it's taking up. The fact that Peja is a foreigner has NOTHING to do with it, and I - as one who shares the opinion that you responded to - am offended at the insinuation that I am biased against foreigners.
 
AleksandarN said:
You know I was not going to post a reply because I might be called a Pedja appologist or defender or whatever I do not care anymore. People who say that he does not give 100% is total bullcrap. I see him all the time in the playoffs this year and last giving 100% on the defensive and offensive side.
When you see Peja going all out, hitting the boards, trying to get involved offensively, etc., one night, and then the next night you wonder where he went because not only did he not make an impact, but he wasn't even noticed, that evidence of not giving it 100%.

I'm not the only one that doesn't think Peja tries hard enough. He has his moments, and especially defensively, he's been showing up a lot more in the past couple of years, but he still goes through complete games without making as much as a dent in the stat sheet or in the minds of those watching the game.
 
piksi said:
We all saw how that went.

Game one - last defensive possesion where we needed the stop to stay in the game - Bibby set the "offside trap" - unfortunately it is Basketball and not soccer so Sonics scored and we lost. (Just one of the examples how he "can get it done"

The fact is that neither Pedja nor Bibby did get anything done yet.
Peja does not perform when it matters, it is well documented. Bibby does. For every one example you can find for Bibby, I will find ten for Peja.

To say about, Peja vrs Bibby, "In this case being foreigner would be one of the reason" shows your ignorance and invalidates evrythong you say. Bottom line for most Kings fans is character and production....When it matters, Peja is lacking.
 
Superman said:
When you see Peja going all out, hitting the boards, trying to get involved offensively, etc., one night, and then the next night you wonder where he went because not only did he not make an impact, but he wasn't even noticed, that evidence of not giving it 100%.

I'm not the only one that doesn't think Peja tries hard enough. He has his moments, and especially defensively, he's been showing up a lot more in the past couple of years, but he still goes through complete games without making as much as a dent in the stat sheet or in the minds of those watching the game.
I thought I have addressed that in the rest of my post that you left out when you quoted me