Palmiero tests positive for steroids (merge)
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First, I said I don't enjoy baseball. I don't live in a cave. I do see, hear and read. You have NO idea how I feel personally about Barry Bonds because it's not germane to the discussion AND I've never stated I don't like him.
You can feel free to keep him up on that pedastal. That's your choice. At one point you adamantly protested that he had EVER used steroids. Now you've changed and say he may have, but he didn't last year... It's not funny that some people are saying players age and decline; it's pathetic that some people are going so far in the other direction to forgive Barry Bonds and to make excuses for him as though he's some poor little misunderstood, picked on character out of Charles Dickens. He's not; he's a millionaire professional athlete AND he knew what he was doing. Period. If he didn't, he's dumb as a box of rocks.
For the record, I have watched baseball since the Giants came to San Francisco. I even owned the Strat-o-matic baseball game, and my brother and I conducted our own full league schedule for about 4 years. I've seen the greats - like Willie Mays, McCovey, Cepeda, Marichal, etc. play in person. I saw a LOT of Giants-Dodgers games as I grew up. It was the one time my dad would get off work to take my brother and I to see the rivals play.
People like Barry Bonds are a plague on America's national pastime. He and all the others who decided they had to do whatever they possibly could to make themselves better than all the rest of the guys playing the game are nothing more than criminals, not because they took steroids and cheated, but because they stole the image of the game of baseball for nothing more than personal glory. Shame on all of them. Shame on Mark McGwire, shame on Rafael Palmiero, shame on Jose Canseco, etc. They took a game so beloved that children would stand outside for hours just to get a glimpse of them and they sullied it. They made it the laughing stock of professional sports. There is no excuse for that - none at all.
Go ahead. Be proud of what Barry Bonds accomplished. That's your choice. My choice is to NOT celebrate any kind of accomplishment that is tainted by artificial means, especially when the players involved have gone to such great lengths to hide their actions. At least the drug McGwire took wasn't illegal at the time he used it, but it still wasn't right. Baseball was a great sport, it was pure and simple - and guys worked for a long time dreaming of glory in the big leagues. How many of them have gone by the wayside because of someone who decided HIS performance was so important that he needed to cheat to get that extra little advantage?
My father got me interested in baseball and basketball. He died in 1984. I regret that he never saw the Sacramento Kings but I'm not sorry at all that he didn't see what happened to baseball. It would have broken his heart.
You can feel free to keep him up on that pedastal. That's your choice. At one point you adamantly protested that he had EVER used steroids. Now you've changed and say he may have, but he didn't last year... It's not funny that some people are saying players age and decline; it's pathetic that some people are going so far in the other direction to forgive Barry Bonds and to make excuses for him as though he's some poor little misunderstood, picked on character out of Charles Dickens. He's not; he's a millionaire professional athlete AND he knew what he was doing. Period. If he didn't, he's dumb as a box of rocks.
For the record, I have watched baseball since the Giants came to San Francisco. I even owned the Strat-o-matic baseball game, and my brother and I conducted our own full league schedule for about 4 years. I've seen the greats - like Willie Mays, McCovey, Cepeda, Marichal, etc. play in person. I saw a LOT of Giants-Dodgers games as I grew up. It was the one time my dad would get off work to take my brother and I to see the rivals play.
People like Barry Bonds are a plague on America's national pastime. He and all the others who decided they had to do whatever they possibly could to make themselves better than all the rest of the guys playing the game are nothing more than criminals, not because they took steroids and cheated, but because they stole the image of the game of baseball for nothing more than personal glory. Shame on all of them. Shame on Mark McGwire, shame on Rafael Palmiero, shame on Jose Canseco, etc. They took a game so beloved that children would stand outside for hours just to get a glimpse of them and they sullied it. They made it the laughing stock of professional sports. There is no excuse for that - none at all.
Go ahead. Be proud of what Barry Bonds accomplished. That's your choice. My choice is to NOT celebrate any kind of accomplishment that is tainted by artificial means, especially when the players involved have gone to such great lengths to hide their actions. At least the drug McGwire took wasn't illegal at the time he used it, but it still wasn't right. Baseball was a great sport, it was pure and simple - and guys worked for a long time dreaming of glory in the big leagues. How many of them have gone by the wayside because of someone who decided HIS performance was so important that he needed to cheat to get that extra little advantage?
My father got me interested in baseball and basketball. He died in 1984. I regret that he never saw the Sacramento Kings but I'm not sorry at all that he didn't see what happened to baseball. It would have broken his heart.
I hope that he never used them but he himself said he did for one season and like I said before, right now I believe what he says so that means Im not going to call him a liar when he says he used steroids.
Funny how you say he knew he was using steroids when you dont know and never will know the truth to that. And Im sure he would be real stupid if he didnt know the cream had steroids in it. Tell me how he was supposed to know. A childhood friend who you've known for 30+ years gives you a cream that looks like any other joint/muscle cream and says this stuff works is lying? Now its clear he did lie but if you were Barry how or why would you ever think there would be steroids in it? His trainer wasnt associated with steroids before that (except personal use when he was a body builder) or at least a dealer so why would Barry think his friend is lying to him. A trainer who he relies on for diets, suppliments, and workouts (still to this day) would lie to him? Athletes take care of their bodies and know exactly what goes in and out but this is one of the guys he paid to do that for him. He put his trust in him and got tricked. Now you saying that is a lie for absolutely no reason isnt right. Because who are you to say hes a liar and with what proof to back it up?
Nobody is forgiving Barry or making excuses for him. Barry was and is better than the rest without steroids so I dont think that would have been his motivation to use steroids and still you cant say that because you cant prove he knew about them. He used steroids one year and you sound like you are throwing his whole career away as if he has given baseball a black eye... give me a break. He is/was the MJ of baseball. Road game attendance was way up every game because they went to see Barry. This year it is down from the usuall when Barry comes to down.
Why wasnt it ok that McGwire took that drug when it was legal? Its not cheating. Everyone had access to it and it wasnt illegal.
What lengths have Barry or any others gone to hide their actions? Barry testified in court and untill PROVEN otherwise, told the truth.
VF21, what you are saying is your own personal beliefs yet you speak as if its fact. How can you say half of what you are saying when you have no proof, only assumptions?
Funny how you say he knew he was using steroids when you dont know and never will know the truth to that. And Im sure he would be real stupid if he didnt know the cream had steroids in it. Tell me how he was supposed to know. A childhood friend who you've known for 30+ years gives you a cream that looks like any other joint/muscle cream and says this stuff works is lying? Now its clear he did lie but if you were Barry how or why would you ever think there would be steroids in it? His trainer wasnt associated with steroids before that (except personal use when he was a body builder) or at least a dealer so why would Barry think his friend is lying to him. A trainer who he relies on for diets, suppliments, and workouts (still to this day) would lie to him? Athletes take care of their bodies and know exactly what goes in and out but this is one of the guys he paid to do that for him. He put his trust in him and got tricked. Now you saying that is a lie for absolutely no reason isnt right. Because who are you to say hes a liar and with what proof to back it up?
Nobody is forgiving Barry or making excuses for him. Barry was and is better than the rest without steroids so I dont think that would have been his motivation to use steroids and still you cant say that because you cant prove he knew about them. He used steroids one year and you sound like you are throwing his whole career away as if he has given baseball a black eye... give me a break. He is/was the MJ of baseball. Road game attendance was way up every game because they went to see Barry. This year it is down from the usuall when Barry comes to down.
Why wasnt it ok that McGwire took that drug when it was legal? Its not cheating. Everyone had access to it and it wasnt illegal.
What lengths have Barry or any others gone to hide their actions? Barry testified in court and untill PROVEN otherwise, told the truth.
VF21, what you are saying is your own personal beliefs yet you speak as if its fact. How can you say half of what you are saying when you have no proof, only assumptions?
Whatever.
We'll do it your way. Barry Bonds is the best athlete in the world. It is simply a miracle that he got BETTER as he aged, instead of doing what virtually every other athlete past his peak would do.
He didn't take steroids, but if he did it was only because he trusted someone he'd known for 30+ years. (We won't bother trying to figure out why THAT person would give Bonds an illegal substance.) And if he did, he only did it for one year - although he previously swore he had NEVER taken them (that's in the archives in several newspapers, so it's not an assumption on my part). He obviously just forgot.
Comparing Barry Bonds to Michael Jordan is an obscenity.
At this point, there is no reason whatsoever for me to continue this discussion. Feel free to worship Bonds and defend him. Just don't be TOO surprised when it turns out he has feet of clay.
We'll do it your way. Barry Bonds is the best athlete in the world. It is simply a miracle that he got BETTER as he aged, instead of doing what virtually every other athlete past his peak would do.
He didn't take steroids, but if he did it was only because he trusted someone he'd known for 30+ years. (We won't bother trying to figure out why THAT person would give Bonds an illegal substance.) And if he did, he only did it for one year - although he previously swore he had NEVER taken them (that's in the archives in several newspapers, so it's not an assumption on my part). He obviously just forgot.
Comparing Barry Bonds to Michael Jordan is an obscenity.
At this point, there is no reason whatsoever for me to continue this discussion. Feel free to worship Bonds and defend him. Just don't be TOO surprised when it turns out he has feet of clay.
This contradicts what you say below. BIG TIME.
How so? I hope he never used them but Im not going to argue with him when he admitted to it.
Is that not enough proof?
Is what enough proof? Nobody except Bonds and his trainer know the answer to whether he was aware that there were steroids in the cream.
Except you, even Barry has admitted it.
What excuses am I making up? I know he used steroids, Im defending the fact that he didnt know he was using them.
If he was and is better, why the steroids? What was his motivation?
What was HIS motivation? What we know now is that he has no motivation because he didnt intentionally use steroids. If we find out he knew what he was doing then I think it would be to break the all time HR record (again, not that he needed the steroids).
How so? I hope he never used them but Im not going to argue with him when he admitted to it.
Is that not enough proof?
Is what enough proof? Nobody except Bonds and his trainer know the answer to whether he was aware that there were steroids in the cream.
Except you, even Barry has admitted it.
What excuses am I making up? I know he used steroids, Im defending the fact that he didnt know he was using them.
If he was and is better, why the steroids? What was his motivation?
What was HIS motivation? What we know now is that he has no motivation because he didnt intentionally use steroids. If we find out he knew what he was doing then I think it would be to break the all time HR record (again, not that he needed the steroids).
I dont remember saying he is the best athlete in the world. I do remember saying he is one of the, if not the best baseball player to ever play the game. Most athletes do decline at that age. Aaron, along with many other athletes dont. Never said it was a miracle, just said he takes care of his body and trains extremely hard for a 41 yr old.
I said I believe him when he says he took steroids. He told the truth in the court room about his use of steroids when he explained his story and after that time he was telling the newspapers he never used steroids. Whats your point? I dont know his reasons for that but the only people he didnt tell was the media. Do you blame him?
You wouldnt trust someone you've known for 30+ years? Thats just stupid. Who wouldnt? Obviously his trainer had motives, does it matter what they were? Bonds had no reason to think that his trainer would have steroids put in that cream. If he did then please tell me what they are.
Compairing Bonds' and Jordans' affect on road games attendence is an obscenity? Haha... Like captain bill said, you really do sound like you came into this discussion with a hatred for Bonds already for whatever reason. Now hes the devil. If I sounds like I am standing up for him against 'realistic' people who see through all the 'lies' then I'm sorry. Untill you can prove otherwise, Bonds is telling the truth. So by you saying everything that you are saying about him knowing what he was doing and being stupid if he didnt is a joke.
I like how re-stating what Bonds has said before and what is known to be true at this point in time is worshiping him. I just want to know why you think baseball is ruined because of Barry Bonds' use of steroids which you seem to know he did intentionally. Untill you know for a fact that he was aware of the steroid use, it sounds idiotic that you say he knew it for a fact. And untill those facts come out, I dont see how he has ruined baseball.
Im with you, lets end the arguement.
I said I believe him when he says he took steroids. He told the truth in the court room about his use of steroids when he explained his story and after that time he was telling the newspapers he never used steroids. Whats your point? I dont know his reasons for that but the only people he didnt tell was the media. Do you blame him?
You wouldnt trust someone you've known for 30+ years? Thats just stupid. Who wouldnt? Obviously his trainer had motives, does it matter what they were? Bonds had no reason to think that his trainer would have steroids put in that cream. If he did then please tell me what they are.
Compairing Bonds' and Jordans' affect on road games attendence is an obscenity? Haha... Like captain bill said, you really do sound like you came into this discussion with a hatred for Bonds already for whatever reason. Now hes the devil. If I sounds like I am standing up for him against 'realistic' people who see through all the 'lies' then I'm sorry. Untill you can prove otherwise, Bonds is telling the truth. So by you saying everything that you are saying about him knowing what he was doing and being stupid if he didnt is a joke.
I like how re-stating what Bonds has said before and what is known to be true at this point in time is worshiping him. I just want to know why you think baseball is ruined because of Barry Bonds' use of steroids which you seem to know he did intentionally. Untill you know for a fact that he was aware of the steroid use, it sounds idiotic that you say he knew it for a fact. And untill those facts come out, I dont see how he has ruined baseball.
Im with you, lets end the arguement.
No, it didn't force him to. But MLB basically said it's okay, we'll look the other way when you use steroids. Knock yourself out. And that is at fault, as well as every player who chose to take those opportunities, but don't go after Bonds for taking what was given to him.
I agree with Brick, and I actually have given up on baseball and probably won't watch it any more next year, even if Bonds is back. I agree with what he says about everyone who took steroids doing something wrong, how they are all at fault, equally. I just can't stand the hypocrites who take aim at Bonds as being uniquelly worse without considering the context of his actions.
I agree with Brick, and I actually have given up on baseball and probably won't watch it any more next year, even if Bonds is back. I agree with what he says about everyone who took steroids doing something wrong, how they are all at fault, equally. I just can't stand the hypocrites who take aim at Bonds as being uniquelly worse without considering the context of his actions.
See this is the problem. I agree. Steroids ruined baseball or at least this era of baseball and Bonds is a part of that BUT I think less blame or whatever be put on Barry UNTILL you can prove he intentionally cheated. Its obvious Palmiero is an idiot who cheated intentionally due to the obvious fact that the steroid he was on needed to be injected into his ***. But as It stands with Bonds, all we can go by is what he has told us to be true. And that means he was tricked and STILL cheated but not intentionally. Because of that I dont see the greed or Ill will in Barry like others that only care about themselves and not the game itself (even thought that is how the media portrays Barry). Im just trying to get people to understand that what Bonds said is true untill proven wrong and peoples assumtions or own theorys that they may have on this situation are worthless untill proven right.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/07/sports/baseball/07giambi.html?hp
this is why i am so annoyed with people who go after (or defend) users on an individual basis. i've said all i really need to say, so i'll just leave with that article.
this is why i am so annoyed with people who go after (or defend) users on an individual basis. i've said all i really need to say, so i'll just leave with that article.
And, on the other hand, considering virtually everyone who had taken the steroids LIED about it, there is ample reason to believe Bonds may have done the same. You may not like it, but your beliefs that Bonds alone is the one shining example of someone who DIDN'T do it to cheat is just as worthless in the face of everything that's been happening.
Excuse me? I am not a hypocrite. I have said repeatedly SHAME ON all of them - if they used steroids, they cheated.
That's not being a hypocrite. A hypocrite is someone who blames everyone BUT one player, and continues to rationalize that player's use.
You're bought into everything Barry Bonds has said about his use of steroids. Sorry, but I think he has much more reason to continue to lie - and possibly save his career - than to tell the truth.
I read your comments and I admire your passion in defending him. My problem isn't with you. It's that Barry Bonds is not worthy of someone like you sticking up for him.
Peace.
That's not being a hypocrite. A hypocrite is someone who blames everyone BUT one player, and continues to rationalize that player's use.
You're bought into everything Barry Bonds has said about his use of steroids. Sorry, but I think he has much more reason to continue to lie - and possibly save his career - than to tell the truth.
I read your comments and I admire your passion in defending him. My problem isn't with you. It's that Barry Bonds is not worthy of someone like you sticking up for him.
Peace.
For a Damned Yankee, Redemption at the Plate
By TYLER KEPNER
Published: August 7, 2005
TORONTO, Aug. 6 - He still does not say the word steroids. There is no incentive for Jason Giambi to do that, nothing for him to gain but an unwanted distraction.
Kathy Willens/Associated Press
Jason Giambi got a standing ovation for his 14th homer of July.
After reports said Jason Giambi told a grand jury that he had used steroids, tabloids lashed out.
And Giambi, improbably, is not a distraction anymore. In a year of unrest for the Yankees and for baseball, Giambi is their renewed slugger, swatting game-winning home runs the way he used to, reaching base at a higher rate than any other hitter in the major leagues.
Unlike the other prominent players linked to baseball's steroid scandal, it is Giambi who has emerged as the game's most redemptive story. Barry Bonds has been injured all season. The retired Mark McGwire, Giambi's mentor, broke down in tears before Congress in March. Sammy Sosa is a shadow of himself. Rafael Palmeiro, who pointed his finger at Congress and swore he had always been clean, was suspended this week for failing a drug test.
The Yankees have endured their most trying season in a decade, still trailing in the race for a playoff spot. But after exploring ways to void his contract and its remaining $82 million, they no longer worry about Giambi. He has lifted his average by nearly 100 points in three months and resumed his place among the game's elite power hitters, with a .289 average and 21 homers through Saturday.
Giambi is proof, perhaps, that a player can stop using steroids and regain his old aura. But he does not frame his redemptive season in those terms. To Giambi, his story is about overcoming the tumor that all but incapacitated him last summer. If he were tempted to use steroids now, he said, he would be a fool to give in. "Trust me, there is no way, no possible way," Giambi said this week, over two revealing interviews about his comeback. "I've gotten to this point because I'm healthy. There's no chance I'm going to take a chance on doing anything. There's no way."
But Giambi, who has been tested this season, told the news media before the 2004 season that he had never taken steroids. It was later reported that he had said the opposite a few months earlier, before the grand jury investigating the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative.
All that was before his ordeal last summer, however, an ordeal that he said has changed his outlook on life and baseball. Giambi played only 80 games in a season ruined by a benign pituitary tumor. He finished with a .208 batting average and 12 home runs, and that was all fans could see.
"A lot of people blew it off and said he's not sick, he just wasn't playing well," said Yankees pitcher Tanyon Sturtze, perhaps Giambi's closest friend on the team.
"We're all happy for him, and I think he's probably happy he's playing well when so many people talked so poorly about him last year. Now he's able to do the things he's doing."
Giambi said he was not enjoying this season more because he was proving critics wrong. His success, including a major-league-best .450 on-base percentage, is sweet to him because he is healthy and hitting.
"Let's be honest, there aren't people falling over dying from everything else," Giambi said, making a careful comparison between steroid use and his struggle with the tumor. "I don't really want to get into it, but people are playing and functioning and doing stuff.
"Everybody saw me when I walked into the clubhouse last year. I was a mess. That's not caused by one thing. I was sick. That's what I knew I needed to battle back from - just get healthy and be right, just be me."
Giambi was the American League most valuable player for Oakland in 2000, and the runner-up in 2001. He signed with the Yankees that winter and hit 41 home runs in each of the next two seasons.
He did it with the help of steroids, according to The San Francisco Chronicle's account of his testimony at the Balco trial. Giambi reportedly said that he stopped using steroids in July 2003 because he was worried he would aggravate his left knee injury, which would hinder him the rest of that season.
Part of his recent surge has been his emphasis on rehabilitating the knee with his personal trainer, Bob Alejo. The work would have started sooner, but Giambi essentially lost about five months to the illness last year.
(continued)
By TYLER KEPNER
Published: August 7, 2005
TORONTO, Aug. 6 - He still does not say the word steroids. There is no incentive for Jason Giambi to do that, nothing for him to gain but an unwanted distraction.
Jason Giambi got a standing ovation for his 14th homer of July.
And Giambi, improbably, is not a distraction anymore. In a year of unrest for the Yankees and for baseball, Giambi is their renewed slugger, swatting game-winning home runs the way he used to, reaching base at a higher rate than any other hitter in the major leagues.
Unlike the other prominent players linked to baseball's steroid scandal, it is Giambi who has emerged as the game's most redemptive story. Barry Bonds has been injured all season. The retired Mark McGwire, Giambi's mentor, broke down in tears before Congress in March. Sammy Sosa is a shadow of himself. Rafael Palmeiro, who pointed his finger at Congress and swore he had always been clean, was suspended this week for failing a drug test.
The Yankees have endured their most trying season in a decade, still trailing in the race for a playoff spot. But after exploring ways to void his contract and its remaining $82 million, they no longer worry about Giambi. He has lifted his average by nearly 100 points in three months and resumed his place among the game's elite power hitters, with a .289 average and 21 homers through Saturday.
Giambi is proof, perhaps, that a player can stop using steroids and regain his old aura. But he does not frame his redemptive season in those terms. To Giambi, his story is about overcoming the tumor that all but incapacitated him last summer. If he were tempted to use steroids now, he said, he would be a fool to give in. "Trust me, there is no way, no possible way," Giambi said this week, over two revealing interviews about his comeback. "I've gotten to this point because I'm healthy. There's no chance I'm going to take a chance on doing anything. There's no way."
But Giambi, who has been tested this season, told the news media before the 2004 season that he had never taken steroids. It was later reported that he had said the opposite a few months earlier, before the grand jury investigating the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative.
All that was before his ordeal last summer, however, an ordeal that he said has changed his outlook on life and baseball. Giambi played only 80 games in a season ruined by a benign pituitary tumor. He finished with a .208 batting average and 12 home runs, and that was all fans could see.
"A lot of people blew it off and said he's not sick, he just wasn't playing well," said Yankees pitcher Tanyon Sturtze, perhaps Giambi's closest friend on the team.
"We're all happy for him, and I think he's probably happy he's playing well when so many people talked so poorly about him last year. Now he's able to do the things he's doing."
Giambi said he was not enjoying this season more because he was proving critics wrong. His success, including a major-league-best .450 on-base percentage, is sweet to him because he is healthy and hitting.
"Let's be honest, there aren't people falling over dying from everything else," Giambi said, making a careful comparison between steroid use and his struggle with the tumor. "I don't really want to get into it, but people are playing and functioning and doing stuff.
"Everybody saw me when I walked into the clubhouse last year. I was a mess. That's not caused by one thing. I was sick. That's what I knew I needed to battle back from - just get healthy and be right, just be me."
Giambi was the American League most valuable player for Oakland in 2000, and the runner-up in 2001. He signed with the Yankees that winter and hit 41 home runs in each of the next two seasons.
He did it with the help of steroids, according to The San Francisco Chronicle's account of his testimony at the Balco trial. Giambi reportedly said that he stopped using steroids in July 2003 because he was worried he would aggravate his left knee injury, which would hinder him the rest of that season.
Part of his recent surge has been his emphasis on rehabilitating the knee with his personal trainer, Bob Alejo. The work would have started sooner, but Giambi essentially lost about five months to the illness last year.
(continued)