Palmiero tests positive for steroids (merge)
- Thread starter GreenKing
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i'm going to give you one name
Frank Thomas
that man is a certified HOF in my book. his numbers are amazing considering what he did in an era of steriods. the only reason he lost out on that mvp to jason is because jason had more juice in him than Welch's. he is pure power and god given talent combined with an amazing work ehtic. had injures not derailed his career he would have had more hr, more rbi and if the sox were a constant contender he would have probably had more runs and walks. even now, if you look at his numbers, they are very impressive. and he did it all without any steroids. that i can guarantee.
Frank Thomas
that man is a certified HOF in my book. his numbers are amazing considering what he did in an era of steriods. the only reason he lost out on that mvp to jason is because jason had more juice in him than Welch's. he is pure power and god given talent combined with an amazing work ehtic. had injures not derailed his career he would have had more hr, more rbi and if the sox were a constant contender he would have probably had more runs and walks. even now, if you look at his numbers, they are very impressive. and he did it all without any steroids. that i can guarantee.
How?
I am inclined to agree. Or at least as much asI can in the juiced era. Think he likely had his power just from naturally being a BIG boy. And the power he had was a more natural/normal level rather than hitting 80 homers or whatever. But how can you guarantee it or anything in this era?
In any case, back before the HRs went insane, I thought the Big Hurt was about as potent a weapon as there was in baseball -- +.300, power, tremendous eye and walks etc. Of course I am a better fielder than he was, and faster too. But a great hitter.
I am inclined to agree. Or at least as much asI can in the juiced era. Think he likely had his power just from naturally being a BIG boy. And the power he had was a more natural/normal level rather than hitting 80 homers or whatever. But how can you guarantee it or anything in this era?
In any case, back before the HRs went insane, I thought the Big Hurt was about as potent a weapon as there was in baseball -- +.300, power, tremendous eye and walks etc. Of course I am a better fielder than he was, and faster too. But a great hitter.
IMO I think he was aware that he wasnt doing something legal and I still believe he only used them for 1-2 years at the most. Barry was being tested a lot last year and obviously clean when he along with his trainer and everyone at Balco were being so closely watched and he still won an MVP award. He needed the steroids to hit 70+ HR's but to hit in the high 30's to mid 40's i dont think he needed them. His natural talent was and still is good enough for that.
He failed it months ago, after the hearing and it was announced on ESPN that the test was administered after the hearing but he is still being looked at for lying at the hearing because someone doesnt just take steroids after a hearing like that for the first time at his age. He is, as ESPN says 'Mentally Addicted' to them and if he used them months ago, its very very hard to believe his career isnt full of steroid use.
He failed it months ago, after the hearing and it was announced on ESPN that the test was administered after the hearing but he is still being looked at for lying at the hearing because someone doesnt just take steroids after a hearing like that for the first time at his age. He is, as ESPN says 'Mentally Addicted' to them and if he used them months ago, its very very hard to believe his career isnt full of steroid use.
Bonds, without steroids, would still be an amazing player and one of the best to ever play. I have no doubt he would still have reached 500-500, the only player in history to do so. And anyone who watches him knows huge amounts of his talent come from his mind and are complemented by his body. He also works extremely hard on his body, as hard as anyone in the game today. And then he uses steroids, or did, which made him the absolute monster that he is, hands down best ever if the question of steroids is ever used, but if you say, what does he do without them, he is still at least in the top 20 of greatest players ever. So yes, he cheated, but so did everyone else. Depending on your standards, scratch out the last 20 years of ball-world series wins, every game played, they're all tainted. Or, live with all the demons of baseball and give the man his due. That goes for every player of this era, because at least half of the ones of note were probably on something. So deal with it, and don't berate Barry for having the misforune of being the greatest player of the worst era. Not his fault.
Something wrong with that? Im not defending Bonds in any way just reciting information you hear every day here in the bay area on every sports radio show. I guess I just happen to believe it.
Why cant I condem Palmiero? He was caught. Bonds hasnt been caught. And why I said that quote you have up there was simple. A man says he has never used steroids but shortly after he is using steroids... did he suddenly decide to start using them after swearing he never did? Makes you think that Canseco is right and that he has been using steroids all along, throughout his career. He is either a complete idiot or was a previous juicer with an addiction that told him he couldnt play without them. Either one of those gives me good enough reason to condem him.
When Bonds, hardly my hero, is proven guilty of steroid use with evidence then I will say the exact same thing but UNTILL that time comes, Palmiero is the one with the asterisk IMO.
Very well said and I agree completely. Like I said above and what many people believe and also from dates involving Barry, Balco and Greg (trainer) he used them for 1-2 years. The season was the big one when he broke Marks HR record. Take away that season and even the season before AND the season after (3 seasons) and he is still top 5 players of all time. Thats why I feel I can 'defend' my hero against people who dont see him on a daily basis and see his body mass, etc over the years and not from just watching tv.
Look, the point isn't that we shouldn't ignore Barry or give him a free pass, but that you can't go after him as a unique subject. You have to look at him within a context, within what is going on around him. Everyone else is juiced too, and it's not as if he took some supersteroid that was somehow a worse form of cheating. Everyone is cheating, and at this point you can't set aside one cheater from the rest just because he played his (rigged) hand better than everyone else. As I said, ignore every single baseball stat from the last 15-20 years, and then go after Barry, or accept that this is the steroid era and understand that, and come to terms with that and try to change it, solve it, move on. Either do the first, forget baseball, and get Barry's head, or do the second and recognize that Barry still deserves a spot as one of the greatest of all times. Sorry, but this time sarcasm can't quite broach the issue.
:| bonds admitted to using steroids... the cream and the clear sound familiar..??? for god's sake victor conte was charged and his company torn apart by federal investigators. bonds took the same road raffy did, he said he didn't know what he was using when he did it. what do you mean he was never caught? he freakin' admitted to it, he just heasn't played all season and has not had a chance to get caught. yes, bonds would be a great player without the steroids, but you explain how a player who was supposed to be in the twilight of his career can all of a sudden become the greatest home run hitter ever, especially with the 73 hr season he had. he is obviously juiced, and with all due respect, anybody who doesn't think so needs to wake up. i have nothing against him, love him as a player, but that guy was obviously on the juice.
Grobar-Bonds WAS tested this season. Being on the DL does not exempt you from steroids policy. That was way back a long time ago and, since we haven't heard anything of it, I assume he was clean. Not that he never did steroids, but get your facts straight before you start making accusations using faulty attacks and no evidence.
Bonds hasn't been caught?
"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
Sorry, BIC. I'm not buying it. Just ANOTHER reason I no longer derive any joy whatsoever from baseball. You're willing to condemn just about everyone else except Bonds. And that's your choice. Just don't expect me to comment about the marvelous material in the emperor's new clothes.
"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
Sorry, BIC. I'm not buying it. Just ANOTHER reason I no longer derive any joy whatsoever from baseball. You're willing to condemn just about everyone else except Bonds. And that's your choice. Just don't expect me to comment about the marvelous material in the emperor's new clothes.
Im condemning everyone else except Bonds? Who would that be because the only person I was talking about was Raffi unless you are talking about the comment about Mark which I am defending his use of andro at that point in time. I'm guess Im blind. I still havent seen evidence or proof that Bonds cheated. Sorry.
He admitted to being tricked by his trainer into using the cream and the clear for other purposes. That is nothing like Raffi's situation. Raffi said it but had no reason as to why he may have accidentally used steroids. Also, the type of steroid that Raffi used is injected into his back end by himself or someone. That is blatant use of steroids and proves he obviously knew what he was doing. A normal cream with steroids in it isnt obvious and I personally wouldnt notice. I'm a Giants fan, a Bonds fan but I am not blind nor stupid. A lot of people hear something and think they know it all such as the media saying Bonds is a jerk and now many people think that when they first think of Bonds. He admitted to using steroids intentionally. Its up to you to whether or not you believe him. Bonds has never failed a drug test. There is NO evidence that proves Bonds has used steroids except what Bonds said himself. All I am saying is he is innocent untill proven guilty IMO. This is all about personal opinion and that is mine. Im not looking for a debate or arguement because I dont think there is one. You can think he is a juicer and ruined the game, etc but untill you show me some evidence, he is the best player to ever play.
Grobar- I left some words in bold that I found interesting. How was he 'obviously' juiced. You thought nobody could ever hit 73 homeruns in a season? From what I understand you thought it was impossible so he must have used steroids to do it. It couldnt be that he has the best hand-eye cordination in the history of the game or his amazing bat speed even at his old age or the way he can put his weight into his swing to give it all the power it needs or even his natural talent. Its the juice right? I guess its because he suddenlly got so big right? Did you see him up close and experience the change in size or was that something you heard on espn... Its funny how some people can call him a liar and say he knew about the steroids or somehow come up with all this garbage with no evidence or sources.
I guess I am somewhat defending Barry, as VF21 says but that is only because he isnt in the same boat as Raffi, so I feel that I can speak differently about him. Give me some proof that he used steroids with the intention of cheating and I will then say no HOF ever and every stat of his during the years he used steroids should be tainted.
He admitted to being tricked by his trainer into using the cream and the clear for other purposes. That is nothing like Raffi's situation. Raffi said it but had no reason as to why he may have accidentally used steroids. Also, the type of steroid that Raffi used is injected into his back end by himself or someone. That is blatant use of steroids and proves he obviously knew what he was doing. A normal cream with steroids in it isnt obvious and I personally wouldnt notice. I'm a Giants fan, a Bonds fan but I am not blind nor stupid. A lot of people hear something and think they know it all such as the media saying Bonds is a jerk and now many people think that when they first think of Bonds. He admitted to using steroids intentionally. Its up to you to whether or not you believe him. Bonds has never failed a drug test. There is NO evidence that proves Bonds has used steroids except what Bonds said himself. All I am saying is he is innocent untill proven guilty IMO. This is all about personal opinion and that is mine. Im not looking for a debate or arguement because I dont think there is one. You can think he is a juicer and ruined the game, etc but untill you show me some evidence, he is the best player to ever play.
Grobar- I left some words in bold that I found interesting. How was he 'obviously' juiced. You thought nobody could ever hit 73 homeruns in a season? From what I understand you thought it was impossible so he must have used steroids to do it. It couldnt be that he has the best hand-eye cordination in the history of the game or his amazing bat speed even at his old age or the way he can put his weight into his swing to give it all the power it needs or even his natural talent. Its the juice right? I guess its because he suddenlly got so big right? Did you see him up close and experience the change in size or was that something you heard on espn... Its funny how some people can call him a liar and say he knew about the steroids or somehow come up with all this garbage with no evidence or sources.
I guess I am somewhat defending Barry, as VF21 says but that is only because he isnt in the same boat as Raffi, so I feel that I can speak differently about him. Give me some proof that he used steroids with the intention of cheating and I will then say no HOF ever and every stat of his during the years he used steroids should be tainted.
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He is wallowing in the proof for every single baseball fan, or non baseball fan for that matter, outside of Northern Calfiornia. I can only imagine the fun I could have with Barry Bonds in court when I got him to tell the jury he was tricked into using steroids. Good lord.
And Barry has damaged the game far more than the second rate guys ever could. Even Palmiero, potential Hall of Famer though he is, was never the face of baseball. Until this latest embarrassment, I sincerely doubt anybody who did not watch baseball even knew who he was. But Bonds -- he was the poster boy, sad as that may be. A surefire hall of famer who did not HAVE to cheat to have everything. And he did anyway. And now he's perverted the record books and permanently stained baseball. Classically selfish and arrogant move from a seflish and arrogant individual. If he had any honor he'd just retire now and save baseball the awkward embarrassment of seeing him pass Aaron and Ruth for the ultimate baseball record. As it is, we can all be guaranteed of one more year of incessant Steroidball discussion at least as Barry chases the ultimate asterisked record.
And Barry has damaged the game far more than the second rate guys ever could. Even Palmiero, potential Hall of Famer though he is, was never the face of baseball. Until this latest embarrassment, I sincerely doubt anybody who did not watch baseball even knew who he was. But Bonds -- he was the poster boy, sad as that may be. A surefire hall of famer who did not HAVE to cheat to have everything. And he did anyway. And now he's perverted the record books and permanently stained baseball. Classically selfish and arrogant move from a seflish and arrogant individual. If he had any honor he'd just retire now and save baseball the awkward embarrassment of seeing him pass Aaron and Ruth for the ultimate baseball record. As it is, we can all be guaranteed of one more year of incessant Steroidball discussion at least as Barry chases the ultimate asterisked record.
I'm not going to argue with you that Barry didn't cheat, because I'm sure he did. But that's not the point. You want to punish him because of his NATURAL talent. What, he shouldn't have poured his heart into the game and played hearter, better and smarter than anyone else on the field? He has perverted the record books and tainted baseball? What about the commissioner's office, ignoring for years the use of steroids in baseball? What about all the hundreds of other players who were juiced? Let me give you a wake up call: the only reason people are angry about steroids and these policies got initiated and now people like Palmiero are getting caught is because of Barry. If he wasn't the great player that he is, and the person unfriendly to the media, people wouldn't have been up in arms and getting angry about steroids. Barry is a pariah and the reason why people finally woke up to steroids. McGwire-Sosa was accepted by everyone because it gave baseball a nice story and some popularity, complete with the drugs. So how come Mark is okay? Look, maybe you don't like him either, but Barry is the target of your anger. I don't get that. As I said, if you want him to retire, you have to demand that everyone retires, that we cancel baseball and start over with young fresh kids and test them all the time. If you say that is the solution, then I have no problem with you going after Barry. But if you think one more game should be played, I guarantee you someone on the field will be cheating. So either let Barry keep playing or let no one play. It's hypocritical to single out Barry and ignore everyone else.
I'll ask you: aside from having natural talent, what did Barry do that no one else has? Have talent? You say he hurt baseball and the record books. Palmiero and McGwire did, too. And those records include awards, too. Giambi's MVP, say. The A's World Series win (and probably most other teams, too) So let's condemn Barry and kick him out. But first erase every other play in baseball for the last 15 years. Remove the Red Sox's rings, and go back to 1985. Or earlier, probably. Start over. Erase everything. If that's what you want, so be it. But, forgive me for being blunt, but people who want Barry and Barry alone are just being shortsighted and spiteful. Burn him at the stake and pretend like we've saved the game. It worked with Canseco, right?
I'll ask you: aside from having natural talent, what did Barry do that no one else has? Have talent? You say he hurt baseball and the record books. Palmiero and McGwire did, too. And those records include awards, too. Giambi's MVP, say. The A's World Series win (and probably most other teams, too) So let's condemn Barry and kick him out. But first erase every other play in baseball for the last 15 years. Remove the Red Sox's rings, and go back to 1985. Or earlier, probably. Start over. Erase everything. If that's what you want, so be it. But, forgive me for being blunt, but people who want Barry and Barry alone are just being shortsighted and spiteful. Burn him at the stake and pretend like we've saved the game. It worked with Canseco, right?
I agree, I cant stand cheating at all but unlike you, I personally believe him when he says he didnt know that the cream has steroids in it. Its only my opinion and I could be wrong but untill proven wrong thats how I am going to see it. No way Bonds was on steroids last year. Balco was closed, and he, along with his trainer and victor were being watched so closely that it would be idiotic (perfect example is palmiero) to continue the use of steroids. Its my choice to believe his story and what he has said and I respect others opinions and thats why I dont think there is anything to argue about. You either believe him or not and can come up with a million reasons why he did use them but untill proven I will wait. Funny thing is it will never be proven. Baseball said no to testing old urine samples for the steroids he was on (his idea) and the only way we would ever know is if he wrote a detailed book or something that just gave everything away.
Just an interesting stat. At the age of 37 Bonds hit a career high 73 homeruns. At the age of 37 Aaron hit a career high 47 homeruns.
Between '99 and '00 bonds went from 34-49 (+15) homeruns which is a big jump IMO for someone at his age who is supposed to be going down. The next year bonds hit his career high 73.
Between '68 and '69 aaron went from 29-44 (+15) homeruns which is also a big jump for someone at the same age as bonds. Next year aaron hit 38 and then his career high 47.
I know its easy to make an arguement that 73 is a hell of a lot more than 47 but when you think of all the good suppliments out there along with workouts, etc I would expect players to play better at an older age. I said I believed what Bonds said and therefor I would have to believe that he used steroids when he hit 73. I guess the arguement I am trying to make is that that was the only year he used them and the is the only year he admitted to using them (might be one other year, if someone knows please tell me) and to say he must still be on steroids without proof because he is winning an MVP award at the age of 40 isnt right.
Just an interesting stat. At the age of 37 Bonds hit a career high 73 homeruns. At the age of 37 Aaron hit a career high 47 homeruns.
Between '99 and '00 bonds went from 34-49 (+15) homeruns which is a big jump IMO for someone at his age who is supposed to be going down. The next year bonds hit his career high 73.
Between '68 and '69 aaron went from 29-44 (+15) homeruns which is also a big jump for someone at the same age as bonds. Next year aaron hit 38 and then his career high 47.
I know its easy to make an arguement that 73 is a hell of a lot more than 47 but when you think of all the good suppliments out there along with workouts, etc I would expect players to play better at an older age. I said I believed what Bonds said and therefor I would have to believe that he used steroids when he hit 73. I guess the arguement I am trying to make is that that was the only year he used them and the is the only year he admitted to using them (might be one other year, if someone knows please tell me) and to say he must still be on steroids without proof because he is winning an MVP award at the age of 40 isnt right.
T
Check his cap size, your head does not go from a size 7 3/4 to a size 9 1/2.
Yup, its the juice, and yes, nobody could ever hit 73 homeruns without the roids. Although, I will say Bonds, with his bat speed/hand eye coordination, is the only one on roids who could have hit that many.
I compared pictures of him pre roid
post roid with nice bird and a nice white man.
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thesanityannex said:
Check his cap size, your head does not go from a size 7 3/4 to a size 9 1/2. Yup, its the juice, and yes, nobody could ever hit 73 homeruns without the roids. Although, I will say Bonds, with his bat speed/hand eye coordination, is the only one on roids who could have hit that many.I compared pictures of him pre roid
post roid with nice bird and a nice white man.
One thing for some of you to think about. Bonds, at age 40-41 hit 45-46 hrs last year along with 200+ walks (right?). Put him in the position of a normal hitter who doesnt get intentionally walked like he does and he wouldve hit 60+ hrs. He surely isnt on steroids now or last year (wouldnt be stupid enough) and at his age is capable of hitting 60+ hrs. He used roids but IMO he didnt need one bit of them to be the best player ever.
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those pictures don't tell very much. i can see size difference in his torso, but you can't say that steroids are the only reason men gain weight as they age. his arms in the earlier picture still look pretty ripped, it's just extremely difficult to tell from that angle. the picture is at an angle with his swing that his body looks very small. a nice way to prove that he is on steroids. you take two pictures of any man between 27 and 40, especially one that works out like a fiend, and i guarantee you he will look much bulkier in his later years.
and again, i would bet anything that bonds does not possess the most raw strength of any hitter in the game, yet he is still the most prolific hitter, he was second in avg in 2003, i believe.
allegations about his hat size are pure hearsay, same as saying that his testicles have shrunk. you haven't seen those, either, so give it a rest. i won't say that bonds hasn't done steroids, but the case against him is as strong as anyone in baseball. don't punish him for being twice the player any of the other players on the field are. when everyone is cheating, it becomes and equal playing field again. not that it's ok, but look at the truth for what it is. give the man his due or condemn all of baseball. it's a simple choice, and if you take any other you are just taking the path of talking heads at espn who like to go after soft targets instead of really discussing the issues in the sport.
and again, i would bet anything that bonds does not possess the most raw strength of any hitter in the game, yet he is still the most prolific hitter, he was second in avg in 2003, i believe.
allegations about his hat size are pure hearsay, same as saying that his testicles have shrunk. you haven't seen those, either, so give it a rest. i won't say that bonds hasn't done steroids, but the case against him is as strong as anyone in baseball. don't punish him for being twice the player any of the other players on the field are. when everyone is cheating, it becomes and equal playing field again. not that it's ok, but look at the truth for what it is. give the man his due or condemn all of baseball. it's a simple choice, and if you take any other you are just taking the path of talking heads at espn who like to go after soft targets instead of really discussing the issues in the sport.
The lengths to which some people are willing to go to make excuses for Barry Bonds astounds me.
If he cheated, it's okay because everyone else did so the playing field was level?
Bullbleep!
"Give the man his due or condemn all of baseball'? Not ALL of baseball suddenly, at what should have been the beginning of the waning of their careers, became super-studs.
Lots of players DIDN'T indulge in the illegal use of steroids. You can pretty much pick them out. They're the ones who didn't suddenly break long-standing records, their heads are normal sized, and they don't look like Hans and Fritz from Saturday Night Live.
Barry Bonds is like Bart Simpson: "I didn't do it; nobody saw me; you can't prove a thing."
And I don't believe either one of them.
If he cheated, it's okay because everyone else did so the playing field was level?
Bullbleep!
"Give the man his due or condemn all of baseball'? Not ALL of baseball suddenly, at what should have been the beginning of the waning of their careers, became super-studs.
Lots of players DIDN'T indulge in the illegal use of steroids. You can pretty much pick them out. They're the ones who didn't suddenly break long-standing records, their heads are normal sized, and they don't look like Hans and Fritz from Saturday Night Live.
Barry Bonds is like Bart Simpson: "I didn't do it; nobody saw me; you can't prove a thing."
And I don't believe either one of them.
What excuses are we making for Bonds?
For someone who doesnt follow or enjoy baseball anymore you seem to know a lot. You dont personally like Bonds so you believe every piece of dirt out there. Hes a jerk, he has a big head, small testicles, he used steroids intentionally or even at all... how do you know? The media right?
I think I understand now. If you break a long standing record then you must be juiced. Someone had to set the record in the first place.
"I didn't do it; nobody saw me; you can't prove a thing."
Whats wrong with that? You didnt see him, and you cant prove a thing so untill you can how can you say he has juiced. What if he used the cream for a week and figured it wasnt doing what it was supposed to and stop using it... there is no proof so again, he is innocent untill proven guilty.
Why is it that his career is 'supposed' to go downhill at a certain age. Everyone isnt the same and that is definitly true now with all the legal suppliments and everything athletes do these days to keep healthy. Its just funny how some people can say he was supposed to stop being great at this age and since he didnt he must be a juicer. He wasnt on steroids last year so how was he the best player in baseball... without steroids he is nothing at this age right? Cmon... Bonds did not become a superstar when he was supposed to be going downhill... if you have followed his career you would see there was always something amazing in his game that put him above everyone else.
Sanity- How do you compare the pictures of Bonds at the age of 28 and then in his late 30's and early 40's. He looks the same in that second picture to this day so if that picture is actually from his suspected steroid year, which i dont think it is then he hasnt changed at all and when stopping the use of steroids your body loses everything you have created while on the drug.
For someone who doesnt follow or enjoy baseball anymore you seem to know a lot. You dont personally like Bonds so you believe every piece of dirt out there. Hes a jerk, he has a big head, small testicles, he used steroids intentionally or even at all... how do you know? The media right?
I think I understand now. If you break a long standing record then you must be juiced. Someone had to set the record in the first place.
"I didn't do it; nobody saw me; you can't prove a thing."
Whats wrong with that? You didnt see him, and you cant prove a thing so untill you can how can you say he has juiced. What if he used the cream for a week and figured it wasnt doing what it was supposed to and stop using it... there is no proof so again, he is innocent untill proven guilty.
Why is it that his career is 'supposed' to go downhill at a certain age. Everyone isnt the same and that is definitly true now with all the legal suppliments and everything athletes do these days to keep healthy. Its just funny how some people can say he was supposed to stop being great at this age and since he didnt he must be a juicer. He wasnt on steroids last year so how was he the best player in baseball... without steroids he is nothing at this age right? Cmon... Bonds did not become a superstar when he was supposed to be going downhill... if you have followed his career you would see there was always something amazing in his game that put him above everyone else.
Sanity- How do you compare the pictures of Bonds at the age of 28 and then in his late 30's and early 40's. He looks the same in that second picture to this day so if that picture is actually from his suspected steroid year, which i dont think it is then he hasnt changed at all and when stopping the use of steroids your body loses everything you have created while on the drug.
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Not every player became Bonds, because not very many can. Lots of players who could never have made it did because of steroids, and still had ho-hum careers that no one would notice. A huge concern is that steroids are so rampant in the minors, and lots of players who are tweeners, almost major league but not quite, will turn to drugs to push them over the top. They are then nobodies in the MLB, but happy for the huge guaranteed pay raise. Then there are other players, players who would have been nobodies but with the help of drugs would become midlevel players, who have some note but certainly will never come close to the all-star game. Think Alex Sanchez, Jamal Strong or Ryan Franklin. Guys who would never get any attention if they weren't getting busted. Somehow, I get the feeling Strong isn't going to make a big dent on the record books. There's also guys like Juan Rincon, good solid players, not the best in the league, but probably would fall into the category of "Hey, look! A good guy who isn't juiced!" All of these guys have normal sized heads, too. Then you have another category, of the guys who do do big things. Canseco, to start with, then McGwire, Sosa, Palmiero, Giambi, Sheffield and yes, Bonds. The thing is, steroids run deep. It's not just the top tier players. Out of the suspensions so far, 2 have been real big name players-Palmeiro and Rincon, and Rincon is a stretch. Undoubtedly, there are a lot of guys who were and are clean, but you will never, ever, in a thousand years, be able to go through the records and figure out who is clean and who isn't. So that is why picking on Bonds is just stupid. If you want to say it's his fault, make the bad man go away and stick your head back into the sand, that's fine. But I want no part of it. The last 2 decades are tainted, so I'll just understand that and live with it. Bonds did not introduce steroids. He didn't start telling people about this new crazy way to get better. Steroids came to him, and he made the wrong choice. But so did half of baseball. So give me one thing that Bonds has done wrong, more wrong than anyone else in baseball, besides having amazing talent, and then pick on him. Otherwise, know that it is the system that failed and produced cheaters, not Barry Bonds.