TehSwimGuy
Bench
Also, you're probably not much of a friend if you'd slap someone in the face over a post...Scotty take it downnnnn a notch.
Our FO/Ownership Has Let The Fans Down
- Thread starter rainmaker
- Start date
Uncia03
Starter
I have my disagreements with rainmaker and it's possible that he's including me in his statement regarding fans who think the FO does no wrong.
With that said, all during the lockout he was very vocal about what he was hoping to see from the FO in terms in re-shaping the roster.
Things have not gone well at all, when you look at what we have now, compared to hypothetical scenarios that were bandied around prior to free-agency.
So he's really frustrated, and I can completely understand.
I wanted this to be the off-season where we basically 'finalized' our roster. Where we could sit back and say, "This is the core that we are going to be building around. We might tinker around a little bit, but by and large, this is the group we want to compete with."
We lost Dalembert, who looks to have been the only shot (from an outsider's perspective) to get that elite rebounding/shotblocking big, and I now think that he never was an option, which is dis-heartening.
Perhaps we might be able to get Hayes again, which could help somewhat.
But by and large, even with Hayes, I don't think you can look at the roster and say, "It's finished."
And that's frustrating for me, and I can imagine frustrating for rainmaker.
So when I think about all the conversations prior to free-agency, and then look at what was accomplished, I can see the frustration, and I'm more than willing to give him a pass.
Who knows, perhaps we get Hayes and it works out a lot better than we think.
I'm willing to let things play out for a bit before getting too down on things.
RookieOfTheDay
Starter
Most of those hypothetical scenarios I recall revolved around getting one of Gasol/Nene/Chandler. I wanted those guys too. I don't think anyone knew at that time though that those guys would end up commanding north of 15$ million to even get their attention. Does anyone here really wish they'd have given that type of money to one of those guys? If not then I can only assume that most of this angst is over not resigning Dalembert to which i'd simply remind folks...it's only Dalembert.
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Uncia03
Starter
My guess is that they were. And it's my sincere hope that we're able to really put things together this year, develop some chemistry, get a good flow going, and make a strong push for the play-offs. It's going to be so difficult with the new roster and the horrible road-schedule we're going to have to deal with.
If we are able to make an OKC type of run, I'm hoping that a lot of the doom-and-gloom will lift a bit. But there will still be people who criticize the players/FO/Coaches regardless of how well things are going. I don't think criticism is at all bad, provided that it isn't only criticism. Some posters only seem to criticize things regardless of good things which might also be going on, and I think that is what I find the most wearisome.
TehSwimGuy
Bench
Yeah. I mean I'm not heartbroken about Dalembert. All in all, I never viewed him as anything special. I would like the FO to lay out some sort of plan though. They can only wait around to build for so long. They need to start being playoff worthy before Evans and Cousins leave, or this team will be back to square 1.
Come on.
You can latch on the extreme viewpoints of a few if you want. But the vast majority of posters on this board don't think it's somehow being a bad fan to point out when the front office makes mistakes, or when the owners aren't doing their job. Go back to the Anaheim fiasco earlier this year, and you'll clearly see how many fans have absolutely no problem being critical of ownership. Go back to draft day 2009, and you'll see how many fans have no problem being critical of Geoff Petrie. Go back to most of last season and see that the majority of fans are highly critical of the coaching.
What you're doing is trying to paint everyone who disagrees with you into a box. "If you're not willing to criticize the front office and ownership over this, then you must think that criticizing the front office is bad fanship." And that's BS.
You and I have been around here for a long time. We know how this board works, and we know how the team operates. Back three or four years ago, everyone was ready to get rid of Geoff Petrie. When the Maloofs decided to put their eggs in the Miller/Peja/Bibby basket, fans weren't happy about that. People were trying to run Rick Adelman out of town for years before he was finally let go. No one is infallible in the fans eyes. In this instance, it's as simple as some people don't think the front office is to blame for not keeping Dalembert and not replacing him with another quality big man.
I'm not calling your viewpoint worthless. I just think you're being unfair.
Uncia03
Starter
I agree. When Perkins signed his ~8mil/year deal with OKC prior to the off-season, I was expecting that to be setting the tone for a defensive-big man. So I was very surprised when I heard that they were demanding.
The thing I have to mention in regards to Dalembert is simply this: He completes the roster.
When you look at our team the only thing we really needed was an interior defensive player. (I'm not going to go into the whole 'we need a PG' debate, because it's clear the FO isn't looking for one)
The hope was that we'd sign Dalembert, and then that would be it. We'd have our completed roster that we could grow together, gain chemistry, and be in contention. So we end up signing Hayes who, though is an interior defender, not the interior defender that we probably need to complete the team.
So that's the issue. It isn't that 'It's just Dalembert', but it's more that 'it's the final piece of the puzzle', now see if the pieces come together in a manner that allows us to compete.
Who knows, if we re-sign Hayes, perhaps he will give us that piece that we need. I'd rather we get the ability to re-sign Hayes, then be left with no-one on our roster who can play the interior defense we need this year.
That's not how it normally happens, though. The Lakers didn't have their core that they were going to build around until three months into the season when they traded for Gasol. We've been watching a lot of teams slap together contenders overnight, but that's not the traditional way a team gets built.
RookieOfTheDay
Starter
In a case like this I can only defer to the Kings staff. After all, they're the ones who practice with these guys and actually see them on a daily basis. I saw way more enthusiasm over Chuck Hayes and what he brought to the team than I ever did for Dalembert. That's telling to me. I'm not one who thinks that Petrie and Westphal are just incompetent fools so I can only figure that there must be a reason why they never seemed all that high on Dalembert and were willing to and gladly replaced him with Hayes.
Go right click his name and find his posts. You'll see that a lot of his posts are either picking up a quarrel, ridiculing grammar, or plain insulting the poster and not the post. Worse than being a troll. I wonder how many warnings from the moderator this guy have now.
Uncia03
Starter
I agree that it doesn't happen like that a lot, but I think it's the way it can happen for teams building through the draft. Take OKC for example, they went and traded for Chandler to be that 'final piece'. When that ended up falling through, they picked up Cole Adrich from Kansas in the draft to see if he could be their interior big, and then when they had the opportunity they got, then locked up, Perkins as that final piece.
I don't expect them to make any more 'major' roster moves, as getting that interior defender really solidified their roster. Now they just need to grow together.
So it was my hope that we'd be following the same sort of path. I had hoped to find an interior big for around the same price as Perkins under the new CBA.
Again, it may be that if we re-sign Hayes, he will bring us that, but I'd have been happier if we'd gotten an interior defender with more length.
folsomfella
G-League
I wish everyone at STR would read this thread. Almost everyone there suddenly agrees Hayes was/is the solution to everything and refuse to admit Petrie could possibly be less than the world's greatest GM. He could fart in their faces and they'd swear he was spraying them with cologne.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
I suspect no warnings, actually.
Anyway, his response was nice and mature. If the past history is bad, so be it. I don't think I have ever had a problem with him. If I have, it was easily forgettable. I really liked his response to my comment.
Rookie
Starter
Well I would like Cousins/Evans to take us to the playoff otherwise I don't mind them leaving.
Our roster at the beginning of last season is not the same roster we finished with. Same for a lot of title contenders. No reason to think we're done, just because we didn't get one of the top bigs available. Maybe we are, but we'll probably be tinkering with this roster all season, just like last.
We also have Whiteside, who will either contribute this year or be out of the league. Hope it's the former.
I'm not that high on Chuck Hayes. Never been much of a fan. I like him, personally. I don't care what the docs say, that guy has plenty of heart. But he's undersized, and he doesn't have the other-worldly talent or athleticism like Charles Barkley to make it so his size disadvantage doesn't matter. If he's your third big, you have a problem. If he's your fourth big, you might be a contender. The Lakers or Mavs could use him; he'd probably be a waste on our roster.
IfAt1st
Starter
After witnessing the dismal failure of the Kings to put any semblance of a competitive team together ever since they fired Adelman, I will remind KF's that as far as putting an NBA-level "system" in place, they have had absurdly-incompetent coaches the past 5+ years.
Call me crazy, but I think the coach affects what the players do on the court more than the FO does.
I like Westphal, but the fact that the Kings can't run (or defend against) pick-and-rolls (or screens) calls the coaching into question more than FO moves, to me. The fact they can't box out and do other basic things that most other teams do makes me think the coaching is incapable of preparing their players to succeed at the NBA level.
Call me crazy, but I think the coach affects what the players do on the court more than the FO does.
I like Westphal, but the fact that the Kings can't run (or defend against) pick-and-rolls (or screens) calls the coaching into question more than FO moves, to me. The fact they can't box out and do other basic things that most other teams do makes me think the coaching is incapable of preparing their players to succeed at the NBA level.
I wish the team had resigned Dalembert and convinced Kirilenko to be a King. Those two moves, along with resigning Thornton, were pretty much my exact hope for this offseason.
But even if that had come to fruition, those aren't exactly earth shattering moves. AK47's career is winding down. And Dalembert is a durable and steady contributor who can be counted on for 8 & 8 along with a block or two. But he's not a world beater. We know exactly what he is and isn't at this point. And for all his positives, Dalembert is not only not a veteran leader but often a voice of dissent in the locker room. A guy whose effort fluctuates and who grumbles about touches because he thinks he's a much better offensive player than he is. It's a blow to lose him, but I think people are overreacting.
I actually hoped the Kings could grab DeAndre Jordan but I had a feeling that the Clips would match to keep he and Griffin together. Chandler scared me health/mileage wise and Nene is a weaker rebounder and help defender than most realize.
I hope this team brings back Hayes. There will still be a lack of shotblocking, help defense and overall interior defense, but he's absolutely the right kind of veteran for this young team. A team guy who is all about effort and doing the dirty work. Who will increase rather than decrease ball movement and who will be a positive voice in the locker room.
The Kings offered the most money to Dalembert, Kirilenko (as far as I can tell) and Crawford and were spurned for other teams. Even if we wanted to pay Chandler ridiculous money does anyone think he would have chosen the Kings over the Knicks?
Given the circumstances I can't be that upset about the way things played out. The reality still is that the success of this team will always lie with how Tyreke and Cousins develop individually and as a tandem and how the young pieces fit (Thornton, maybe Hickson and Jimmer) fit next to them. Dalembert wasn't ever going to be a King when those two guys hit their primes. We'll see how not resigning him affects this season, but the future still lies in the hands of the pair of guys in the banner at the top of this page.
While Dalembert's on court fit and production are on paper more what the Kings need, the argument can certainly be made that a guy like Chuck Hayes is better for the future we want to have with this team. I was not thrilled with his initial signing, but now I'm very much hoping he comes back.
Either way this season is all about how the young guys develop. Can Tyreke regain his ability to attack the hoop, become a better shooter and distribute the ball better? Can DeMarcus become a beast in the blocks, show better conditioning, keep his composure and cut down on bad shots & passes? Can Hickson add some skills to go along with his athleticism and do the dirty work at PF? Can Jimmer be the scoring threat that spreads the floor while not being too much of a defensive liability? Can Thornton show that last year was not an illusion and he's the scoring threat and clutch player we all want him to be?
The answers to those questions will determine the Kings arc as a team. Not whether or not Dalembert resigned.
But even if that had come to fruition, those aren't exactly earth shattering moves. AK47's career is winding down. And Dalembert is a durable and steady contributor who can be counted on for 8 & 8 along with a block or two. But he's not a world beater. We know exactly what he is and isn't at this point. And for all his positives, Dalembert is not only not a veteran leader but often a voice of dissent in the locker room. A guy whose effort fluctuates and who grumbles about touches because he thinks he's a much better offensive player than he is. It's a blow to lose him, but I think people are overreacting.
I actually hoped the Kings could grab DeAndre Jordan but I had a feeling that the Clips would match to keep he and Griffin together. Chandler scared me health/mileage wise and Nene is a weaker rebounder and help defender than most realize.
I hope this team brings back Hayes. There will still be a lack of shotblocking, help defense and overall interior defense, but he's absolutely the right kind of veteran for this young team. A team guy who is all about effort and doing the dirty work. Who will increase rather than decrease ball movement and who will be a positive voice in the locker room.
The Kings offered the most money to Dalembert, Kirilenko (as far as I can tell) and Crawford and were spurned for other teams. Even if we wanted to pay Chandler ridiculous money does anyone think he would have chosen the Kings over the Knicks?
Given the circumstances I can't be that upset about the way things played out. The reality still is that the success of this team will always lie with how Tyreke and Cousins develop individually and as a tandem and how the young pieces fit (Thornton, maybe Hickson and Jimmer) fit next to them. Dalembert wasn't ever going to be a King when those two guys hit their primes. We'll see how not resigning him affects this season, but the future still lies in the hands of the pair of guys in the banner at the top of this page.
While Dalembert's on court fit and production are on paper more what the Kings need, the argument can certainly be made that a guy like Chuck Hayes is better for the future we want to have with this team. I was not thrilled with his initial signing, but now I'm very much hoping he comes back.
Either way this season is all about how the young guys develop. Can Tyreke regain his ability to attack the hoop, become a better shooter and distribute the ball better? Can DeMarcus become a beast in the blocks, show better conditioning, keep his composure and cut down on bad shots & passes? Can Hickson add some skills to go along with his athleticism and do the dirty work at PF? Can Jimmer be the scoring threat that spreads the floor while not being too much of a defensive liability? Can Thornton show that last year was not an illusion and he's the scoring threat and clutch player we all want him to be?
The answers to those questions will determine the Kings arc as a team. Not whether or not Dalembert resigned.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Good point. I didn't realize Hayes was a good passer.
Uncia03
Starter
Going into the off-season I couldn't agree more.
I thought it was great when Houston trotted out Scola and Hayes to defend against Cousins and Dalembert.
I'm willing to give Hayes a chance, but as I mentioned, I don't think you can consider the roster 'complete' if he's your primary interior defender. I would be thrilled to have him, and the FO prove me wrong. And if things go badly, then they can get blasted with the deserved criticism.
As to Whiteside, I was able to catch a game or two of his at Marshall and it was clear that he was a great shot-blocker, but very raw. I was thrilled that we were able to pick him up in the 2nd round, as I felt it was a complete steal, and I'm rooting heavily that he is able to figure it out.
I was incredibly disappointed that he was injured and basically missed out completely on development in his rookie season. Hopefully he'll be able to get developed some this year, as he has the ideal skillset for the player you'd want to pair with Cousins. I would love for him to get 10 minutes a game this season. In an ideal world he'll be starting next to Cousins in a couple of seasons, but it's really on him to learn to be a better offensive/defensive team player.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Swishe's point on Barea is an excellent one. I don't even think they paid that much for him. Heck, it's cold in Minnesota. And they already have an infinite number of point guards. And there were even signals put out that the Kings liked him. But, we didn't come up with him. If anyone can figure that one out, please let me know.
K
Kingsguy881
Guest
To answer your question, none currently. Prolly get one for this one but not really caring, I'm kinda ashamed that some of my fellow Kings fans are really so shortsighted, but then again I highly doubt there are many Kings fans left who were fans of this team in the 90s. I'm sorry, I'm a die hard Kings fan and have been since they moved here when I was 7, I sat through all those years of mediocrity that 3-4 seasons of it might suck to watch but I have faith in the man who made the Kings relevant again. His track record is pretty good insofar as putting together competitive squads so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm not saying I would not get mad at him if this continued for a decade, but this franchise since moving to Sac was mismanaged horribly after they first came here, for a long while too. This current management has gotten my hopes up TWICE now which is TWICE more than the previous management did.
Rookie
Starter
That's exactly how I feel. Personally I don't know if I can trust WP to guide our future but having a veteran like Hayes (if what you think of him is true) than I feel more comfortable with their development.
When I heard the Kings were interested in Barea, I said "Why???" We already have him, twice (Jimmer, Thornton), and we traded the third version of him on draft day (Beno). Why do we need ANOTHER combo guard?
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Neither did I until I looked at the stats. Towards the end of the year last year he was at 4.1 apg to 1.5 tpg. That's better than Tyreke!
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Get Hayes back and I'll be very pleased with the FO. 
TehSwimGuy
Bench
Truth. I really would love to know what those Adelman haters think now. We threw him out without even a glimmer of someone better, and we got screwed in terms of coaching staff. And Houston, as injury-plagued and messed up they were, still were 42-40 and managed over .500.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
I said a whole lot more than that. It's in a recent post from yesterday.
I'm wasting your time? What kind of logic is that, when either a) you still haven't read what I wrote, or b) your reading comprehension sucks, which leads me to believe you're doing nothing but wasting my time. It's all there, my explained point of view, if you're clever enough to find it.
I know exactly what I wrote, and could copy and paste it in a minute, but that's not my job. If you think that is what I said, you have do damn clue what you're talking about.
F off with your Laker crap.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Can't really look back like that though. Adelman was looking at a 6 million a year deal and this team wasn't going to seriously compete any time soon, not after losing Bonzi. Keep Adelman and I can hear all the complaining about not sucking bad enough to get guys like Cousins or Evans. Would love to have Adelman now though after sucking bad enough to land true star potential.
TehSwimGuy
Bench
We could easily have picked him up, it's the only reason I bring him up. He just started coaching the T-Wolves this season
. Why are we keeping Westphal, exactly?But agreed. No looking back, different circumstance. But still, I wonder.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
No I'm not. I have been responded to more than once in the past couple days, or posts implied directly towards me, stating because of my opinions, I should find a new team to root for. One poster said go root for the Lakers.
So no, I wasn't boxing people in with their opinions, until I was told because of my opinion, I should find a new time. That's a load of crap. My fandom has never wavered, yet presently I do find plenty to criticize. If people want to disagree with me, as some have, point by point, I'm happy to discuss, as I have. Disagree with me as much as you like. I don't mind. But when you tell me, not you personally, but when others tell me I'm no longer a good fan because of "whining", and my opinions on the FO, they'll get that response.
