Ongoing saga of Artest and NY Knicks... (MERGED)

#31
I wouldn't rule out that Lee could become a good defender -- there's a learning curve on defense in the NBA, and it takes time to develop the smarts to go along with good athletic ability. Right now he's outclassed a bit, and he's too short to become an outstanding defender, but he has the quickness and toughness to be better.

I also think he makes sense as a starter -- the cumulative effect of having him in the game is what makes him so appealing. Of course, he's not a great fit with Spencer Hawes, but I wouldn't worry about that now. Just assembling some pieces is what Petrie should be focusing on.
 
#32
#34
Isn't the Post known as a joke of a newspaper?

Lee for Artest? They'd be stupid as hell to do that.




Well it is Isiah. lol
 
#35
Lee was absolutely mesmorizing in the rookie game at the all-star break. He went 14 of 14 for 30 points and had 11 rebounds. At 6'-9" 235.

How does this guy not get a dog on crack comparison:D?

If he produces like that in extended minutes I think I will forget Artest was even on our team.
 
#36
NO sir make now mistake Lee is not ans will never be as good as Artest on the court. The ONLY reason ANY talk about trading artest is present is because of his off court issues. Ron was our best ALL AROUND player ON the court last season hands down.
I respect your opinion. But let me tell you why I don't consider Artest to be a great all-around player. ..
I love the way he can shut down some players and be disruptive (preferably to the other team). And I love the way he can aggressively score near the basket. But, a) He's clearly disruptive to his own team on offense (not to mention off the court); b) He's a sub-par rebounder (in terms of his 'everyday game'); and c) He's a sub-par shooter.

I'm not, however, saying that Garcia is our best all-around player or that Lee would be. But I am saying that I would prefer (by a long shot) to have Garcia & Lee at the forward positions rather than Artest & KT/SAR.
 
#37
Newsday is also on this story:

Knicks must add Artest for Bad Boys frontcourt
Ken Berger
NBA

July 4, 2007

We've established that there is very little chance of keeping Zach Randolph from filling up boxscores. The only question is, how is Isiah Thomas going to keep him from filling up the gossip columns and police blotters just as quickly?

There is a high-risk, high-reward solution available to the Knicks, one that will make everyone forget that Randolph has a rap sheet longer than his arm.

Trade for Ron Artest.

The teams competing with the Knicks in the East have gotten better this summer. The latest example was Orlando with word yesterday that prized free agent Rashard Lewis has decided to sign a maximum deal with the Magic rather than try to steer his way to the Knicks in a sign-and-trade.

Thomas clearly doesn't intend to stop making moves after trading for Randolph. What would be the point of taking on Randolph's four years and $61 million without making another move to complete the puzzle?

It would be a puzzle for all time if Artest returned to his hometown at age 27 with a truckload of baggage that rivals Randolph's. But a front line of Eddy Curry, Randolph and Artest would make the Knicks just as viable - and at least as interesting - as any team in the East. His three-point shooting, rebounding and ferocious defense are just what the Knicks need at the small forward spot.

Call it the thugification of the Knicks, if you want to. I say, why stop with Randolph? Why not go all the way and bring on Artest?

Knicks fans would embrace a team like that, the way they embraced Pat Riley's villainous Knicks - or better yet, the way they embraced Latrell Sprewell. Incidentally, Sprewell was damaged goods and a year older than Artest when the Knicks traded for him in 1999 and rode him to the NBA Finals.

Of course, you would embrace such a team only if it won. But as crazy as it sounds, a team anchored by Curry and infused with the talent and desperation of Randolph and Artest might find some scary ways to win. And it would give Thomas the replication of the Bad Boys he's always talking about creating.

Garden chairman James Dolan, who eventually ran Sprewell out of town, would have to be sold on Artest. But if Isiah sold Dolan on Randolph, he could make a decent case for Artest - if he wanted to.

That's the unknown. Word is Thomas wasn't crazy about Artest when he coached him briefly with the Pacers. They had only one public dustup, when Thomas suspended Artest for one game after Artest smashed a photo of himself that was displayed on the wall outside the locker room following a loss to Michael Jordan and the Wizards in 2003.

The two don't have much history beyond that, although Artest is said to greatly respect Thomas.

The book on Artest is that he's a decent guy who's made mistakes. He'll be available later this summer at a bargain price because of those mistakes. Sounds a lot like Randolph.

He's also like Randolph in this way: He fits the Knicks' available options because they're a parking garage filled with Hummers over the cap and in no position to get anyone but players who scare other teams.

The Kings are cleaning house, and the Knicks have at least explored the Artest possibility - including discussions about what kind of influence he would be on their young players. An opt-out in Artest's contract after next season presents some additional risk, but it's also another reason why the Knicks wouldn't have to give up much to get him.

Artest has wanted to play for the Knicks since he was growing up in Queensbridge, and still does. If my plan of addition by dysfunction worked, Artest almost certainly would want to re-up and stay home. If not, then all the Knicks will have done is taken a risk.

Artest and Randolph on the same team would be quite a concoction. It might fail, but it just might work. It would be spectacular either way.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baske...303,print.column?coll=ny-basketball-headlines
 

Entity

Hall of Famer
#39
I respect your opinion. But let me tell you why I don't consider Artest to be a great all-around player. ..
I love the way he can shut down some players and be disruptive (preferably to the other team). And I love the way he can aggressively score near the basket. But, a) He's clearly disruptive to his own team on offense (not to mention off the court); b) He's a sub-par rebounder (in terms of his 'everyday game'); and c) He's a sub-par shooter.

I'm not, however, saying that Garcia is our best all-around player or that Lee would be. But I am saying that I would prefer (by a long shot) to have Garcia & Lee at the forward positions rather than Artest & KT/SAR.
now your talking my language. Garcia is my favorite player. I wouldn't mind trading Artest but, GP wants Hedo, MO Pete, and probably the Q with this trade. I don't mind having another 2/3 behind Martin, Salmons, and Garcia. I just don't want it to be one of these old guys that is going to take the buld of the min. It sucks and goes against what we are trying to do by trading Artest.
 
#40
now your talking my language. Garcia is my favorite player. I wouldn't mind trading Artest but, GP wants Hedo, MO Pete, and probably the Q with this trade. I don't mind having another 2/3 behind Martin, Salmons, and Garcia. I just don't want it to be one of these old guys that is going to take the buld of the min. It sucks and goes against what we are trying to do by trading Artest.
I wouldn't believe everything you read, if I were you.
 
#41
Newsday is also on this story:

Knicks must add Artest for Bad Boys frontcourt
Ken Berger
NBA

July 4, 2007

We've established that there is very little chance of keeping Zach Randolph from filling up boxscores. The only question is, how is Isiah Thomas going to keep him from filling up the gossip columns and police blotters just as quickly?

There is a high-risk, high-reward solution available to the Knicks, one that will make everyone forget that Randolph has a rap sheet longer than his arm.

Trade for Ron Artest.

The teams competing with the Knicks in the East have gotten better this summer. The latest example was Orlando with word yesterday that prized free agent Rashard Lewis has decided to sign a maximum deal with the Magic rather than try to steer his way to the Knicks in a sign-and-trade.

Thomas clearly doesn't intend to stop making moves after trading for Randolph. What would be the point of taking on Randolph's four years and $61 million without making another move to complete the puzzle?

It would be a puzzle for all time if Artest returned to his hometown at age 27 with a truckload of baggage that rivals Randolph's. But a front line of Eddy Curry, Randolph and Artest would make the Knicks just as viable - and at least as interesting - as any team in the East. His three-point shooting, rebounding and ferocious defense are just what the Knicks need at the small forward spot.

Call it the thugification of the Knicks, if you want to. I say, why stop with Randolph? Why not go all the way and bring on Artest?

Knicks fans would embrace a team like that, the way they embraced Pat Riley's villainous Knicks - or better yet, the way they embraced Latrell Sprewell. Incidentally, Sprewell was damaged goods and a year older than Artest when the Knicks traded for him in 1999 and rode him to the NBA Finals.

Of course, you would embrace such a team only if it won. But as crazy as it sounds, a team anchored by Curry and infused with the talent and desperation of Randolph and Artest might find some scary ways to win. And it would give Thomas the replication of the Bad Boys he's always talking about creating.

Garden chairman James Dolan, who eventually ran Sprewell out of town, would have to be sold on Artest. But if Isiah sold Dolan on Randolph, he could make a decent case for Artest - if he wanted to.

That's the unknown. Word is Thomas wasn't crazy about Artest when he coached him briefly with the Pacers. They had only one public dustup, when Thomas suspended Artest for one game after Artest smashed a photo of himself that was displayed on the wall outside the locker room following a loss to Michael Jordan and the Wizards in 2003.

The two don't have much history beyond that, although Artest is said to greatly respect Thomas.

The book on Artest is that he's a decent guy who's made mistakes. He'll be available later this summer at a bargain price because of those mistakes. Sounds a lot like Randolph.

He's also like Randolph in this way: He fits the Knicks' available options because they're a parking garage filled with Hummers over the cap and in no position to get anyone but players who scare other teams.

The Kings are cleaning house, and the Knicks have at least explored the Artest possibility - including discussions about what kind of influence he would be on their young players. An opt-out in Artest's contract after next season presents some additional risk, but it's also another reason why the Knicks wouldn't have to give up much to get him.

Artest has wanted to play for the Knicks since he was growing up in Queensbridge, and still does. If my plan of addition by dysfunction worked, Artest almost certainly would want to re-up and stay home. If not, then all the Knicks will have done is taken a risk.

Artest and Randolph on the same team would be quite a concoction. It might fail, but it just might work. It would be spectacular either way.
Interesting article promoting Artest to the Knicks - but nowhere does it mention David Lee in return.
 
#42
It doesn't say anything about any player coming back.


With all the talk and rumours which have happened, nothing solid is yet to be said...But I guess that's GP being tight-lipped.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#44
It doesn't say anything about any player coming back.


With all the talk and rumours which have happened, nothing solid is yet to be said...But I guess that's GP being tight-lipped.
It's not really about GP being tightlipped -- that's been hihgly overrated for a long time. The people around GP aren't always so circumspect, and the people on the other end of the deal almost never. That's before we even get to the agents who mention things both true and untrue all the time as part of their "trade".

So far GP is irrelevant -- until of course he trades Artest for Hedo at which point he just needs to be slapped -- but in any case, irrelevant. Becuase thus far I see a lot of speculation from Berman, who does have connections, an increasing body of support evidence that such a thing MIGHT be possible (agent quotes, apparently Artest has been discussed at some point etc. etc.) but no hard evidence from EITHER camp that this is close. It starts as speculation by a writer, finds some support in secondary evidence, and then starts getting picked up. Its almost like Ailene with the Larry Brown story. Interesting parts are whether a) Berman was sort of sent on this mission by the Knicks; or b) whether these stories, like Ailene's, might inspire talk even if there has been little.
 
#45
and another thing...if NY comes at us with anything less than David Lee and a pick for Ron Ron, that should be considered an insult. Isaiah cant just walk in and say 'Hey, I've got this kid Nate Robinson that you guys would love'...THAT'S just stupidity on his part...but it IS Isaiah we're talking about here.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#46
and another thing...if NY comes at us with anything less than David Lee and a pick for Ron Ron, that should be considered an insult. Isaiah cant just walk in and say 'Hey, I've got this kid Nate Robinson that you guys would love'...THAT'S just stupidity on his part...but it IS Isaiah we're talking about here.

there is no considering stuff an insult when it comes to Ron. Whoever takes him, NY included, is risking its future in letting an uncontrollable nut into the clubhouse. In fact there is some fuzziness whether Zeke really wants him or not -- has already seen the act up close and personal, and with him as coach as well as GM, he gets to experience all the joy if something goes wrong.

Now of course that does not mean we should let him go for nothing, but when somebody makes an offer, ANY offer, for Ron, that takes some cahones.
 
#47
It's not really about GP being tightlipped -- that's been hihgly overrated for a long time. The people around GP aren't always so circumspect, and the people on the other end of the deal almost never. That's before we even get to the agents who mention things both true and untrue all the time as part of their "trade".

So far GP is irrelevant -- until of course he trades Artest for Hedo at which point he just needs to be slapped -- but in any case, irrelevant. Becuase thus far I see a lot of speculation from Berman, who does have connections, an increasing body of support evidence that such a thing MIGHT be possible (agent quotes, apparently Artest has been discussed at some point etc. etc.) but no hard evidence from EITHER camp that this is close. It starts as speculation by a writer, finds some support in secondary evidence, and then starts getting picked up. Its almost like Ailene with the Larry Brown story. Interesting parts are whether a) Berman was sort of sent on this mission by the Knicks; or b) whether these stories, like Ailene's, might inspire talk even if there has been little.
Yeah, I wonder if the Knicks leaked the Artest ideas to the NY press to see how their fanbase would react before they made a decision. There seems to be a whole lot of chatter from several different newspapers, this feels different than a one-man crusade to make it happen. Only Berman has mentioned Lee, but since Lee's such a popular player the Knicks might have wanted to see how it would play with their fans to propose an Artest trade that included Lee.
 
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#48
Relevant fowards and swingmen on the Knicks...

Jefferies
Richardson
Crawford
Collins
Chandler
Balkman
Nichols
Randolph
Lee

Randolph/Curry in the post.

Marbury/Crawford or Richardson/Artest/Randolph/Curry is such an uncomplimenting line-up.

With the draft over, Frye, Francis gone, outside of David Lee, what assets do the Knicks have to offer the Kings?

I think the only way now between the two teams, Artest comes to the Knicks is if Lee is the main piece in a deal. But, does Isiah really want to give up Lee for Artest? Lee's their best rebounder, brings great energy, is their most athletic big, and is a huge fan favorite.

Isiah is also high on Balkman/Collins/Chandler. Wants the first two to keep developing, from the rookie seasons they had.

Isiah with all the fowards and swingmen he's gotten now, and passing on Artest multiple times in winter 05/06 for Frye - comes off as Isiah doesn't want Artest.

I wouldn't mind seeing Artest on the Knicks, as a big fan of him. It'd be fun playing for his hometown and at MSG. I just don't see a realistic deal for it to happen.

Unless Lee's being offered, Artest to New York is once again just another rumor.
 
#49
Lee is already contributing, but Darko has more potential. Lee is 24 and Darko is just gone 22. It's a toss up, but I think I'd go with Potential and go with Darko, he has more time to improve and could blossom with playing time.
How much have you seen Darko play? His play improved a little, but he still sucks. If the draft was held all over again the guy would be a LATE first round draft pick. He has size and decent athleticism, but his fundamentals are sub-par...he has NO touch around the basket. He's pretty klutzy and very mechanical in the way he plays. And the guy has no passion for the game either, you can tell he just goes through the motions...No one has ever accused David Lee of that.

And the fact that the Orlando Magic renounced his rights to sign a small forward says a lot about his value. No way is he a $10 million dollar a year player like his agent thinks. He's worth about half of that.
 
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CruzDude

Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
#50
Running this scenario thru RealGM can work and satisfies the CBA and the invoked 125% rule (salaries shown are 2007/08):

Artest to Knicks $7.8M

Lee and James to the Kings $0.99M + $5.8M = $6.8M

And Lee plays small forward (but is 6-9 and 250!) and was 10/10 last year (pts/reb), his second full year in the league. James contract is through 08/09 with player option after next year. He, James, could be our "Pot" for next year.
 
#51
Relevant fowards and swingmen on the Knicks...

Jefferies
Richardson
Crawford
Collins
Chandler
Balkman
Nichols
Randolph
Lee

Randolph/Curry in the post.

Marbury/Crawford or Richardson/Artest/Randolph/Curry is such an uncomplimenting line-up.

With the draft over, Frye, Francis gone, outside of David Lee, what assets do the Knicks have to offer the Kings?

I think the only way now between the two teams, Artest comes to the Knicks is if Lee is the main piece in a deal. But, does Isiah really want to give up Lee for Artest? Lee's their best rebounder, brings great energy, is their most athletic big, and is a huge fan favorite.

Isiah is also high on Balkman/Collins/Chandler. Wants the first two to keep developing, from the rookie seasons they had.

Isiah with all the fowards and swingmen he's gotten now, and passing on Artest multiple times in winter 05/06 for Frye - comes off as Isiah doesn't want Artest.

I wouldn't mind seeing Artest on the Knicks, as a big fan of him. It'd be fun playing for his hometown and at MSG. I just don't see a realistic deal for it to happen.

Unless Lee's being offered, Artest to New York is once again just another rumor.
From the Knicks' perspective, what's Lee's role next year? Assuming Curry has a similar season to last year and that they traded for Randolph to play him the bulk of the minutes at power forward, is Lee superfulous? Could they play the three of them together? I'm guessing not. Couldn't Balkman take the 10-15 minutes Lee would otherwise get?

Sure, Lee's a popular player in NY, but nothing makes a team more popular than winning. Assuming Artest doesn't jump (or throw someone off) the Empire State Building, I'd think that having him starting at small forward over the collection of dreck they have now would be more beneficial to the Knicks than having Lee as their backup power forward.

From the Kings' perspective, Lee would solve a big need and, I think, quickly become one of their most beloved players because of his hustle.

I'd rather the Kings keep Artest than get rid of him just to get rid of him, and I certainly wouldn't send him to the Knicks unless Lee is coming back.
 
#52
the best case scenario for a frontcourt of Artest/Randolph/Curry is a championship run. i'd wet myself if i had to go up against them. Isaiah has already done pretty well in redeeming himself this offseason. trading for Artest might be the perfect gamble. they either do amazingly well, and Zeke is a God in New York, or they screw it all up and Isaiah's just the A-Hole loser he was last offseason
 
#53
the best case scenario for a frontcourt of Artest/Randolph/Curry is a championship run. i'd wet myself if i had to go up against them. Isaiah has already done pretty well in redeeming himself this offseason. trading for Artest might be the perfect gamble. they either do amazingly well, and Zeke is a God in New York, or they screw it all up and Isaiah's just the A-Hole loser he was last offseason

That frontcourt of Randolph/Curry won't work out. Those guys don't play D or pass the ball.
 
#54
All this talk of David Lee is just wishful thinking.

David Lee is one of the few things that actually makes Isiah Thomas look smart. He's not about to trade Lee for a guy who, to put it plainly, is nuts and who's team is looking to unload him.

It's more likely he's going to offer up the likes of Jamal Crawford and Renaldo Balkman or some other lowball offer (and the Kings WILL get lowballed for a nutcase like Artest who everyone knows is going to get shopped, so get used to seeing these sorts of offers).
 
#55
Running this scenario thru RealGM can work and satisfies the CBA and the invoked 125% rule (salaries shown are 2007/08):

Artest to Knicks $7.8M

Lee and James to the Kings $0.99M + $5.8M = $6.8M

And Lee plays small forward (but is 6-9 and 250!) and was 10/10 last year (pts/reb), his second full year in the league. James contract is through 08/09 with player option after next year. He, James, could be our "Pot" for next year.
oh please no...
Id rather stick with Artest then take on garbage bag man and his enormous contract
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#56
All this talk of David Lee is just wishful thinking.

David Lee is one of the few things that actually makes Isiah Thomas look smart. He's not about to trade Lee for a guy who, to put it plainly, is nuts and who's team is looking to unload him.

It's more likely he's going to offer up the likes of Jamal Crawford and Renaldo Balkman or some other lowball offer (and the Kings WILL get lowballed for a nutcase like Artest who everyone knows is going to get shopped, so get used to seeing these sorts of offers).

Zeke can lowball all he wants, but its not going to get him the player. And while Lee is nice, he's also a pure PF suddenly squished behind a much better pure PF. Artest, if sane, gives the Knicks a much bigger boost than David Lee does at this point. It could easily blow up, which of course if you are the coach as well as GM you have to be scared of, but its no exaggeration to say that Curry/Randolph/Artest could be the best frontcourt in the East.
 
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SLAB

Hall of Famer
#57
The ONLY, and I repeat ONLY, way I take on one of the Knicks bad contracts is if they flip us both David Lee and Balkman.

If he balks at that, no deal...Man.

So, David Lee, Renaldo Balkman, and Jerome James for Ron Artest...Take it or leave it.

Bibby/Price/Douby
Martin/Douby
Cisco/Balkman
Lee/Balkman/SAR/Thomas
Miller/Hawes/Williams

Then we can buy out James to make the roster fit...Theres no need for him other than make the salaries match.
 
#58
There's no way I'd take on Jerome James' contract for just about anything. The goal is to amass contracts that end soon. James just helps put off the rebuild another year.

Artest for Jones/Dickau/Lee or picks = great
Artest for Rose/Lee = acceptable
Artest for James/anything = no way
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#59
The ONLY, and I repeat ONLY, way I take on one of the Knicks bad contracts is if they flip us both David Lee and Balkman.

If he balks at that, no deal...Man.

So, David Lee, Renaldo Balkman, and Jerome James for Ron Artest...Take it or leave it.

Bibby/Price/Douby
Martin/Douby
Cisco/Balkman
Lee/Balkman/SAR/Thomas
Miller/Hawes/Williams

Then we can buy out James to make the roster fit...Theres no need for him other than make the salaries match.
They won't give us both, nor should we ask for both. They are somewhat duplicative, and we wouldn't have room for them anyway. If we get a second young player, I would should for Collins, who is a big PG who cannot shoot but finished up the year with an eye-opening Jason Kidd run of games (statistically).

The subtext of all this is that there is a healthy chance that Ron is going to leave us to sign with the Knicks after this season anyway. As long as you get Lee out of the deal, and really it has to be Rose -- only contract which is not long term, unless we were able to wait for those enders -- then you go home happy. There is no "value" trade for Artest. People are too afraid of him. So you just get what you can, then cash out.
 
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#60
nbrans said:
There's no way I'd take on Jerome James' contract for just about anything. The goal is to amass contracts that end soon. James just helps put off the rebuild another year.

Artest for Jones/Dickau/Lee or picks = great
Artest for Rose/Lee = acceptable
Artest for James/anything = no way
Totally agreed. Can add on "or Jefferies" on the last one too.