Olden Polynice on Marvin Bagley

Bagley wanting out would be more troubling if he was, you know, actually good.

I wouldn’t be surprised if McNair obliges his desire for a trade this season, but I can’t imagine the market is too hot for a low BBIQ, injury prone, big with a limited skill set...

But there’s gotta be some Vlade tier GM out there we can fleece, right? Sell ‘em on the dream of a 20/10 big (which Bagley can absolutely be).
The only team I can think that might make sense that would take a chance on him, his baggage, and his $11m he is owed next year is the Hornets. Their two best forwards are PJ Washington and Miles Bridges, both of whom are decent role players at best. Also Lamelo is taking over for Devonta Graham sooner rather than later and they will most likely look to trade him so a trade revolving around him is realistic. Also they already are cool with Lavar Ball so I'm sure they wouldn't mind Bagley's dad. I know a trade for Graham isn't exactly sexy, but I also believe Bagley has very little trade value in the league currently.
 
The only team I can think that might make sense that would take a chance on him, his baggage, and his $11m he is owed next year is the Hornets. Their two best forwards are PJ Washington and Miles Bridges, both of whom are decent role players at best. Also Lamelo is taking over for Devonta Graham sooner rather than later and they will most likely look to trade him so a trade revolving around him is realistic. Also they already are cool with Lavar Ball so I'm sure they wouldn't mind Bagley's dad. I know a trade for Graham isn't exactly sexy, but I also believe Bagley has very little trade value in the league currently.
I'd do Bagley for Graham any day of the week.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
The only team I can think that might make sense that would take a chance on him, his baggage, and his $11m he is owed next year is the Hornets. Their two best forwards are PJ Washington and Miles Bridges, both of whom are decent role players at best. Also Lamelo is taking over for Devonta Graham sooner rather than later and they will most likely look to trade him so a trade revolving around him is realistic. Also they already are cool with Lavar Ball so I'm sure they wouldn't mind Bagley's dad. I know a trade for Graham isn't exactly sexy, but I also believe Bagley has very little trade value in the league currently.
If Sac will deal Bagley, I don’t think they do right now, but they had better get Woodard up to speed or acquire a replacement for Bagley. The thought of putting Bjelica into the starting role is not ideal. He slows down the offense and his defense is crapty. Plus he’s going to be gone next year as well. Obtaining Graham is just going to take minutes away from our 3 main guards in Fox, Hield and Halliburton because you just know Cojo is still going to get his minutes.
 
If Sac will deal Bagley, I don’t think they do right now, but they had better get Woodard up to speed or acquire a replacement for Bagley. The thought of putting Bjelica into the starting role is not ideal. He slows down the offense and his defense is crapty. Plus he’s going to be gone next year as well. Obtaining Graham is just going to take minutes away from our 3 main guards in Fox, Hield and Halliburton because you just know Cojo is still going to get his minutes.
Bjelica or moving Barns to the starting PF spot are two only options if Bagley is moved and we don't receive quality SF or PF in return. It is far from perfect, Bjelica lost his agility and became a liability on defense. Moving Barns to PF opens a hole on the SF spot. The Kings FO should be on the market looking for quality forwards.
 
The only team I can think that might make sense that would take a chance on him, his baggage, and his $11m he is owed next year is the Hornets. Their two best forwards are PJ Washington and Miles Bridges, both of whom are decent role players at best. Also Lamelo is taking over for Devonta Graham sooner rather than later and they will most likely look to trade him so a trade revolving around him is realistic. Also they already are cool with Lavar Ball so I'm sure they wouldn't mind Bagley's dad. I know a trade for Graham isn't exactly sexy, but I also believe Bagley has very little trade value in the league currently.
I've been reading this thread and no one has suggested that this whole intrigue might actually be a partnership between Papapaper Bags and the Kings (note - he DID say, "Please")

When Harden didn't play on Sunday, my first thought was, "They are close to trading him" (teams sometimes hold a guy out if a trade is imminent).

A number of teams have been linked to Harden and even if no trade was imminent, holding him out might push a team to spit or get off the pot (if they thought a different team was moving on him).

Maybe that call (to the Houston FO) did not come after he went on the DNP list.

Then, during the game, Papa Bags makes a move that is certain to make headlines (in Sacramento - and in Grant's Brave New World).

Seeing Grant's rant (and knowing that he is always wrong), I wonder if the Kings might be making a play for Harden.

Since the other suitors seem to have cooled on the idea, I wonder:

1) Does Harden have a no-trade clause in his contract (that is, are there only certain teams he could be traded to)?

Based on the previous suggestion of "Charlotte", maybe not.

2) Does Harden want out of Houston so badly that he would be happy to go anywhere at all?

3) What kind of relationship did Harden have with Monte when both were in Houston?

4) Would Buddy and Marvin be a fair package for what might turn out to be a two year rental?

Because that would seem to solve everyone's problems.

I am not sold that Marvin is a bust and here is why:

1) Marvin worked it so that he could finish high school in three years.

2) That made him a very late admission to Duke, so that he missed the two months of practice that his teammates had.

3) Despite that, he dominated a tough conference.

4) He got a coach (Joerger) that he didn't like (and Joerger was an abrasive sort of guy).

5) Then he got a coach (Walton) who even the players must know is in over his head and not the long term solution.

6) Marvin has one skill (rebounding) that is valuable, even if he never finds a go-to offensive move (however, he does seem to have a three point shot). First thing I saw in his first year was, "He has a nose for the ball".

Here are some questions I have:

1) A couple of people have described Marvin as "6'9"" - Basketball Reference lists him at 6'11" (and 235 pounds). Basketball Reference has been wrong a couple of times (I doubt that Charles Barkley or Bogi were/are 6'6" - maybe not even 6'5") but for the most part, BR
is accurate. At age 15, he was measured (without shoes) at 6'9 1/2", so, I don't think that he shrunk. I think he really is 6'11". Does anyone agree or disagree?

2) Considering that Harden in Sac would be a gamble (and possibly only a two year rental), would a good rebounder and a solid shooter (who is a hard working gym rat) be a fair trade?

3) I've seen references to Marvin's option year being for $11 million. I read somewhere that the number was a little more than 14 mil. Does anyone know for certain what the amount is? Because considering that the Kings didn't opt to pay Harry Giles what I think was going to be $4 million and WCS is stuck on a two year contract at 4 mil per, is it likely that the Kings are preparing not to pay that money?

4) When do the Kings have to act on his option (or have they already)?

Because if the Kings have signaled that they are likely to cut ties anyway at the end of this season, could that have been the reason for his dad's tweet? Might Monte then have started a conversation with the Houston FO that goes like, "Bagley's father has put us in a position where we have to trade Marvin - and you have to trade James- maybe we can solve each other's problems". He certainly knows the phone number.

I just can't resist connecting the dots - the tweet happened during a game that Harden sat out.

If the Kings small lineup is their best lineup, Fox, Harden, Ty -The Defense Contractor, Barnes and Holmes/Whiteside looks like a winner to me.

Belly, GR111, Holmes or Whiteside and (even) Cojo makes for a decent bench.

last question:

Is there an NBA rule that forbids "speculation" in contracts?

Something like, "If Harden signs another contract with the Kings after two years (or perhaps opts in for a third season), THEN (and only then) the Kings have to convey a first round pick to the Rockets?

I think baseball allows something like that with "player to be named later" if a guy is on a roster on a certain (future) date, but don't know about the NBA.

The Kings are no longer a "young" team - rather than a(nother) rebuild, maybe going for it all now is the right move.

I wish we had made a move for Jimmy Butler (I'd say that signing worked for Miami), but Harden is about the same age.
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
Speaking of which, Buddy + Bags + filler for Maledon, Dort, and Hoford (plus filler). Maledon is going to be better than Kilian Hayes. Plays kind of like George Hill. Crafty and long. Who says no?
Uhh. We say no. You're basically suggesting that we send away one of the best pure shooters in the league and a 21-year old potential star big that you've grown impatient with for a huge salary dump, an untested rookie, and a previously-undrafted athletic/defender 2-guard who has no history of being able to shoot outside of a current 6-game span. That's suicidal.
 
Uhh. We say no. You're basically suggesting that we send away one of the best pure shooters in the league and a 21-year old potential star big that you've grown impatient with for a huge salary dump, an untested rookie, and a previously-undrafted athletic/defender 2-guard who has no history of being able to shoot outside of a current 6-game span. That's suicidal.
Let's revisit this convo after the Kings play OKC. That OKC team will beat the Kings each time they face each other (barring trades or injuries).
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
3) I've seen references to Marvin's option year being for $11 million. I read somewhere that the number was a little more than 14 mil. Does anyone know for certain what the amount is?

4) When do the Kings have to act on his option (or have they already)?
Bagley's fourth-year option (that's the '21-'22 season) was for $11.3M. It has already been picked up, the decision date on the option was shortly before the start of this season. The $14M number you are referencing is the qualifying offer for the '22-'23 season, which is the size of a one-year contract that must be offered in order to make Bagley a restricted free agent in the summer of '22.

last question:

Is there an NBA rule that forbids "speculation" in contracts?

Something like, "If Harden signs another contract with the Kings after two years (or perhaps opts in for a third season), THEN (and only then) the Kings have to convey a first round pick to the Rockets?
That is not allowed in NBA trades.
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
Thanks for those answers. Seems kind of unfair to make the team decide before seeing him play his third season. The trade deadline would be fairer.
It has been that way for quite some time. Ultimately, it's part of the negotiation between the NBA and the Players Union. I would suspect that the players favored this deadline.
 
If Sac will deal Bagley, I don’t think they do right now, but they had better get Woodard up to speed or acquire a replacement for Bagley. The thought of putting Bjelica into the starting role is not ideal. He slows down the offense and his defense is crapty. Plus he’s going to be gone next year as well. Obtaining Graham is just going to take minutes away from our 3 main guards in Fox, Hield and Halliburton because you just know Cojo is still going to get his minutes.
I’m just speculating. I think Kings hang on to Bagley personally. Also I kind of assume the Kings trade Hield eventually too. Haliburton is going to be moved to the starting lineup before the season ends most likely. I can’t imagine Hield takes his second move to the bench well. I’d much rather have Graham manning that second unit than CoJo.
 

SLAB

Hall of Famer
Wether we like it or not, Papa Bags just elongated Bagley’s stay with us. Between his lousy play and now Pops opening his mouth Bags’ value is as low as its ever been. Just have to stay the course. Rebuild that value if he’s not seen as a piece moving forward, or who knows... maybe he’ll become an efficient low post scorer and team leader who attempts to play defense once or twice a game.

And before Papa opened his mouth I didn’t think moving him was in the cards... But if the demand doesn’t go away, he can’t be traded when his value is at his lowest.
 
Wether we like it or not, Papa Bags just elongated Bagley’s stay with us. Between his lousy play and now Pops opening his mouth Bags’ value is as low as its ever been. Just have to stay the course. Rebuild that value if he’s not seen as a piece moving forward, or who knows... maybe he’ll become an efficient low post scorer and team leader who attempts to play defense once or twice a game.

And before Papa opened his mouth I didn’t think moving him was in the cards... But if the demand doesn’t go away, he can’t be traded when his value is at his lowest.
I think this is a view on MBIII that we can agree on. Don't trade him for the sake of it or to appease his father. Jury is still out and that is perhaps one reason why some are frustrated. Let him play basketball this season and see how it goes.
 
A huge part of the frustration with the initial pick was we took the guy who was least NBA ready of the top 5 in a year we had no pick coming. We then (as a team) exceeded expectations and almost made a playoff push before a late collapse. I think giving him at least until the mid-point of next season is pertinent, but we have to do something about the dad. Not sure if players can be fined for this type of stuff, but it is probably something that will need to be addressed in future CBAs, and not just because of the Bagley and Ball families.
 
A huge part of the frustration with the initial pick was we took the guy who was least NBA ready of the top 5 in a year we had no pick coming. We then (as a team) exceeded expectations and almost made a playoff push before a late collapse. I think giving him at least until the mid-point of next season is pertinent, but we have to do something about the dad. Not sure if players can be fined for this type of stuff, but it is probably something that will need to be addressed in future CBAs, and not just because of the Bagley and Ball families.
Least NBA ready of the top 5 may be correct. I still think his achievements as a freshman at Duke (that put him in elite company: link) and his play as a rookie off the bench (that earned him all rookie team honours) do justify his selection as a top 5 pick. I know there were other players the board would have liked drafted, and that injuries last year and covid this year have been set backs. Hopefully it's upwards from here - let's see.

As for family members and public chat. What can the league do? Toxic parents seem pretty common in sport. It's unfortunate. But if they want to be seen and heard I'm sure they will be.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
I’m for keeping Bagley and seeing it through. I still believe he’s got the ability to put it together and be a part of playoff teams here but I do think he needs to come out and say something to address his dad as others have mentioned....simply say, I here to make this work and blah, blah, blah. By the way, I read today, a player can’t come out and publicly say he wants a trade if I read that correctly.....against the rules and can be fined.

All that being said, if, and I mean IF, he’s wanting out of here, then that’s just being soft and he won’t become the player he wants to be.....shows a mental softness and you just have to look at his dad to see where he got it from. Damn AAU culture.

I also can’t blame the guy for being frustrated with Walton because Walton blows. Kings need to figure out exactly what it is they want to do with this season. Find out what you got in Bagley, meaning playing him in 4th quarter crunch time........and start mixing in Woodard and Ramsey and Guy at some point in the season. Playing Cojo and any other vet big minutes when they won’t be here next year is just not smart.......the more we lose, the more the youngsters just need to play.
 
Least NBA ready of the top 5 may be correct. I still think his achievements as a freshman at Duke (that put him in elite company: link) and his play as a rookie off the bench (that earned him all rookie team honours) do justify his selection as a top 5 pick. I know there were other players the board would have liked drafted, and that injuries last year and covid this year have been set backs. Hopefully it's upwards from here - let's see.

As for family members and public chat. What can the league do? Toxic parents seem pretty common in sport. It's unfortunate. But if they want to be seen and heard I'm sure they will be.
What I meant there was that it was well known that Bagley had been protected by his dad-coach and his AAU team was all Team Bagley and not competitive on the level of the others and often was described as RAW while there were one or two guys with immediate NBA skillsets and another who was a multi-year pro. for better or worse we picked a guy most acknowledged was a longer term project and (some) don't want to give him time.

There are rules about agents and such making open trade demands, it's become clear that there are family members that are doing the work of agents behind the scenes and they are becoming more and more problematic. We're in an evolving social media world where there are real life repercussions for what you share and I am not sure why NBA should be any different.
 
The thing is that the majority of young athletes and their families are in similar boats these days. Jamal Murray and Trae Young both had overbearing fathers who essentially molded them into the ball dominant non-defense playing players that they are today. Reke's brothers pretty much raised him. Kawhi's uncle Dennis is famous/infamous for his involvement in his life. Hell, ironically, concerns about Luka's parents are part of what reportedly made Vlade pass on him.

Other sports are just the same. Pretty much every young NFL quarterback is put through the same rigorous training program by parents who see the potential for hundreds of million dollars in their future. Almost any parent of a little leaguer with even a modicum of arm talent winds up ruining his arm by putting him through various off-season leagues and trainers, etc.
Yep. I posted about this on Twitter.

I surely don’t recall parents being a widespread problem in professional sports until this newer generation started to filter through. You had the occasional Elway or Manning situation with their parents guiding their kids decision, but they were outliers. And those parents didn’t typically shoot their mouth off to the media. It was more behind closed doors.

We’re seeing the generation of parent entitlement come through full force. I’ve coached youth and HS football off and on for 30 years so I’ve seen the issue grow and grow over the years.

You’d expect the problem to tail off once the athletes become adults and don’t want the embarrassment. Or the coddled kid look. But more and more don’t seem capable or willing to hold their families in check.

IMO, along with the WWE officiating, this type of thing will end up driving more and more fans away.
 
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We’re seeing the generation of parent entitlement come through full force. I’ve coached youth and HS football off and for 30 years so I’ve seen the issue grow and grow over the years.
I haven't been aware of it in basketball but it was there in the first generation I was aware of in tennis (e.g. Agassi, Graf). I also had an uncle (who got himself divorced out of the family) who thought his time was better spent coaching some unathletic kids to track scholarships than working a paid job. They didn't get the scholarships and are now living abroad and are in therapy.
 
This is extremely bad either way you look at it. If his dads this loud and beefing with Fox dad while Bagley is playing like an absolute scrub than we’ll never control him if Bagley became an all star
 
Mrs Biker Take:

Been a Kings fan since 1985 I’ve seen a lot of ups and a lot of downs. I have to say is Marvin grow up you’re a young man you’re in the NBA you need to walk away from daddy and quit letting daddy making your decisions for yourself . You can’t even answer anyone’s like a little baby boy hiding behind his dads shirt tail. Man up if you don’t want to be with the Kings? Then just man up yourself Marvin and say so ——don’t be a such chicken and hide behind daddy’s big mouth. It’s unfortunate that you’ve had some injuries that delayed your play time but for two years with the exception of a handful of games? And you are demanding not only to be a starter but all the minutes? Are you kidding me? Look , tell daddy to just shut up.... get out there and play and stop letting daddy control your life. How embarrassing...... I’m shaking my head wondering why on earth would any player of any team think after being gone for a long time deserves a ton of minutes upon his return. You’re in the NBA Marvin, you’re playing with the big dogs now, man up, put up....
 
Alright guys, I've been patient and said I'd give him more time, and that time has come...I'm out on Bagley. He just doesn't have it. He might develop into a solid player one day but right now he's a sunk cost. It's just that simple. Absolute waste of a pick made MUCH worse by the fact that Vlade passed on a generational talent.

He doesn't have much of any value right now, and between his poor play and his dad, he'll likely be traded for pennies on the dollar.

It's time to call a spade a spade.
 

SLAB

Hall of Famer
As vocal and passive aggressive as I am about Bagley ... they can’t trade him now with his value tanked. They can’t.

Walton needs to go. Not just for Bagley’s sake. For everyone’s. If a trade HAS to happen they need to rehab his value even a little.