Oh Boy, Kings look set with players
- Thread starter CruzDude
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Yep -- like that phrase here. Being caught straddling the fence is awkward and can be painful if you're not careful. 
I have no objection to rebuilding...or to contending. But to do neither, to try to have your cake and eat it too while doing neither thing well is just very frustrating. If we want to rebuild, let's move the older guys for enders, picks, maybe a kid or two, slip into the lottery next year during a great draft, have lots of caproom to use on free agents, and reemerge in 2007 with loads of young talent, mayeb Ron and Bibby (or not even Bibby), a nice free agent, and look to get back to the top in a few years.
I have no objection to rebuilding...or to contending. But to do neither, to try to have your cake and eat it too while doing neither thing well is just very frustrating. If we want to rebuild, let's move the older guys for enders, picks, maybe a kid or two, slip into the lottery next year during a great draft, have lots of caproom to use on free agents, and reemerge in 2007 with loads of young talent, mayeb Ron and Bibby (or not even Bibby), a nice free agent, and look to get back to the top in a few years.
Next season should tell a lot, and should provide a much better look into where things stand. If they don't show signs of improvement maybe you do blow things up to rebuild. But right now the Kings have far too much talent to just get rid of the big contracts and start over.
Yep -- like that phrase here. Being caught straddling the fence is awkward and can be painful if you're not careful.
I have no objection to rebuilding...or to contending. But to do neither, to try to have your cake and eat it too while doing neither thing well is just very frustrating. If we want to rebuild, let's move the older guys for enders, picks, maybe a kid or two, slip into the lottery next year during a great draft, have lots of caproom to use on free agents, and reemerge in 2007 with loads of young talent, mayeb Ron and Bibby (or not even Bibby), a nice free agent, and look to get back to the top in a few years.
I have no objection to rebuilding...or to contending. But to do neither, to try to have your cake and eat it too while doing neither thing well is just very frustrating. If we want to rebuild, let's move the older guys for enders, picks, maybe a kid or two, slip into the lottery next year during a great draft, have lots of caproom to use on free agents, and reemerge in 2007 with loads of young talent, mayeb Ron and Bibby (or not even Bibby), a nice free agent, and look to get back to the top in a few years.
Yeah because you know Ron Artest will want to be on a lottery team, playing hard while his team continues to suck for a year.
Ron isn't KG people...So your saying 45 wins won't even get us the 8th seed? I find that hard to believe because the West teams will beat up on eachother and there will be I think four maybe five teams at best who win 50 or more games. Dallas,San Antonio,Phoenix other than those three who really is a virtual lock baring injury to win 50 or more games in the West?
This is not an "oh boy!" its an "oh boy ".
It also would seem to be confirmation that when Geoff threatened to sit on his hands and enter next season with the same obviously deficient team so that Muss could "evaluate" their obvious deficiencies himself, he perhaps meant it. Not sure what Geoff is getting paid these days, but give me 4 months of "work" and I'm sure I could lose Bonzi, overpay for John Salmons, and sign Loren Woods off a scrap heap. And if that's all you need me to do, I'll work cheap, go home early, and go work on the golf game.
".It also would seem to be confirmation that when Geoff threatened to sit on his hands and enter next season with the same obviously deficient team so that Muss could "evaluate" their obvious deficiencies himself, he perhaps meant it. Not sure what Geoff is getting paid these days, but give me 4 months of "work" and I'm sure I could lose Bonzi, overpay for John Salmons, and sign Loren Woods off a scrap heap. And if that's all you need me to do, I'll work cheap, go home early, and go work on the golf game.
TDOS... TDOS... TDOS...
Yawn... wake me when the season starts, because TDOS has been dreadful. Usually the optimist by this time in TDOS, I remain entirely unconvinced about the moves made, and not very enthusiastic about expectations. It'd be nice to be proven wrong.
What I'm saying is: every team who makes the playoffs in the West will be above .500. If we end up 4 games over .500 (45 wins) we should get the 8th or maybe as high as the 7th seed. We would than probably be playing either San Antonio, Dallas, or Phoenix in the first round. I don't think that any of the changes we made this off season are going to improve our chances of beating any of those teams in the playoffs. Additionally, if we win only 40 games (two games under .500) we will be in the lottery.
With the upgrades that other teams made who did not make the playoffs last year (i.e. NOK), I don't think it's a lock we make the playoffs. At this point, with this roster, can we definitively say that we are better than eight other teams in the west?
With the upgrades that other teams made who did not make the playoffs last year (i.e. NOK), I don't think it's a lock we make the playoffs. At this point, with this roster, can we definitively say that we are better than eight other teams in the west?
You can't really carry those results from last season into this new season because you don't have the same Team or the same coaching staff and system that made everything work right.Chemistry built with bonzi and rick adelman in conjungtion with the other guys remaining was unique with those group of guys collectively. It is hard to duplicate the same successful results if you don't have the exact parts operating the ship.What hurts this new team going into next season is the leadership and toughness of bonzi wells which was a major major factor in the success of the team in post season and confidence in thinking that they could knock off the spurs and anyone else that they faced.
The intangibles that bonzi brought you can't buy them with ability alone. Those things can't be taught you must be born with toughness and that won't back down to anyone swagger. With bonzi and ron artest the kings had two players that every good team needs to provide heart and leadership to go along with talented young players. Talent and ability alone just won't get it done
The kings now in my opinion seem to have alot of holes that rick adelman over the last few seasons did a good job of camouflaging and patching up the wounds and keeping the ship running. The loss of Bonzi exposed a major one of the holes and that is rebounding post play offensively toughness and that dirty swagger leadership that the team has been devoid of since the departure of C-Webb. The recent moves don't cover these problems what they do more than anything else is expose the major problems that this team has had for some time now.
Folks this "fix it on they fly" strategy has been going on since the Webber trade and look where it has gotten the Kings. A team that seems to be a little worse each year than the one before. Up untill the end of last seson I saw it as just a matter of getting the missing pice but I think it's gone a litte beyond that now.
Last years roster was fixable but only through agressive tradeing for up grades and that did not happen. Instead we let tallent walk and replaced ti with downgrades. Now "Fix on the Fly" will mean EVEN MORE trading not less.
Last years roster was fixable but only through agressive tradeing for up grades and that did not happen. Instead we let tallent walk and replaced ti with downgrades. Now "Fix on the Fly" will mean EVEN MORE trading not less.
With the benefit of hindsight I think this is a better team than what we started with last year, I'm just not as excited about them.
That's because I overestimated last year's team significantly. Peja/Bibby/Miller +Bonzi/SAR looked good on paper but the chemistry wasn't there. Last year we looked like a top seed team going in but were really a lottery team. This year we seem like a bottom seed team, and probably are that.
That's why it's hard to be excited.
That's because I overestimated last year's team significantly. Peja/Bibby/Miller +Bonzi/SAR looked good on paper but the chemistry wasn't there. Last year we looked like a top seed team going in but were really a lottery team. This year we seem like a bottom seed team, and probably are that.
That's why it's hard to be excited.
First time poster here and I have to agree that Petrie has a plan.. so here is my SWAG on what his plan is..
The three expiring contracts will be kept unless we receive draft picks for them or they are used in a trade for a big name player.. which I don't see happening this summer..
Petrie has been stocking the back court ( Price Martin Garcia Doulby Salmons Artest and (Jeter?) so I think Bibby will be a option... $13 mil. for a one dimensional PG is a lot of money.
It's hard to run a business with a maxed out bank account and no line of credit..
The three expiring = 12 mil and Bibby's 13 mil gives Petrie a lot of options if a big name player (ie. KG) should become available by the trade deadline..
if not then next summer..
There are 17 players on the roster and I would say Amundson - Williams - Jeter in that order in having a chance to make the 15
The three expiring contracts will be kept unless we receive draft picks for them or they are used in a trade for a big name player.. which I don't see happening this summer..
Petrie has been stocking the back court ( Price Martin Garcia Doulby Salmons Artest and (Jeter?) so I think Bibby will be a option... $13 mil. for a one dimensional PG is a lot of money.
It's hard to run a business with a maxed out bank account and no line of credit..
The three expiring = 12 mil and Bibby's 13 mil gives Petrie a lot of options if a big name player (ie. KG) should become available by the trade deadline..
if not then next summer..
There are 17 players on the roster and I would say Amundson - Williams - Jeter in that order in having a chance to make the 15
In other words folks, we really don't know where the Kings are at this point. Consensus is they are better and better than last year would be 45 wins or more. But that is still 7th or 8th as rings4Kings said earlier.
There is a core: Miller, Bibby and Artest (1/2 year at least). There is new blood in the middle (Woods, Williams and Amundson), and some more shooters (and hopefully scorers) in Martin, Douby, Salmons and Price. But above all, a new Defend, Run & Gun coach.
Can that translate to 50 wins or more? sure! Could it translate to 40 wins and 8th spot in playoffs? maybe but not likely. So we've got some exciting times ahead and by the time they are 6 games into preseason, we should start to see what the road ahead can look like: dirt or yellow bricks.
There is a core: Miller, Bibby and Artest (1/2 year at least). There is new blood in the middle (Woods, Williams and Amundson), and some more shooters (and hopefully scorers) in Martin, Douby, Salmons and Price. But above all, a new Defend, Run & Gun coach.
Can that translate to 50 wins or more? sure! Could it translate to 40 wins and 8th spot in playoffs? maybe but not likely. So we've got some exciting times ahead and by the time they are 6 games into preseason, we should start to see what the road ahead can look like: dirt or yellow bricks.
Well last years team looked good on paper, the problem was not lack of tallent or really even depth it was leadership and identity. Sure Ron brought that and the current roster has an upgrade at the 3 but Kevin is no Bonzi and Salmons is no Kevin and every one else is a year older. Now that might be good for Cisco but no one else is benifiting from time anymore. Summer ball miht help Brad but in the end this is a team that LOOKS a notch lower than last season... I hope I am wrong and that soe yong tallent will sky rocket and or this TEAM will be greater than the sum of it's parts after all last seasons team was clearly LESS than the sum of it's parts.
It took four years from the Chris Webber acquisition to the point where the Kings were contenders. Four years that would have been described as slow, excruciating, mediocre, incremental improvement had we not all been so beside ourselves that the Kings were actually worth watching for once. There were the Tariq Abdul-Wahad years and the Nick Anderson years. It hasn't even been a year since the Artest trade.
And when has a team EVER rebuilt itself in one offseason? It doesn't happen. It takes time. It takes crappy offseasons. It doesn't mean you just go and blow things up for the heck of it.
And when has a team EVER rebuilt itself in one offseason? It doesn't happen. It takes time. It takes crappy offseasons. It doesn't mean you just go and blow things up for the heck of it.
I'll accept that argument only if you concede that it was only actually three years that could be fairly described as "slow," "excruciating," "mediocre" or "incremental." That fourth year (2001-02), the Kings made an almost exponential leap, and were legitimate contenders; there was nothing "slow," "excruciating," "mediocre" or "incremental" about that season, except for the final five minutes of the fourth quarter and overtime of Game 7. In fact, you could make the argument that the third year was not slow or excruiciating either.
This argument depends entirely on what your personal definition of "rebuilt" is. If you're saying that a team can only be considered to be "rebuilt" if they went from a championship contender to out of the playoffs back to a championship contender, then you might be right. I, however, define "rebuilt" as a team that either a) went from contender to non-contender back to contender, b) a team that went from playoffs to out of the playoffs back to the playoffs, or c) a team that completely overhauled its lineup and either went from first-round and out to contender or went from nobodies to a playoff team overnight.
Dozens of team have fit the criteria of the third definition, most recently Denver, which opened the 2003-04 season with three new starters and six new players in their top eight (four and seven, respectively, if you consider that Camby only played twenty-nine games, and only started nine, in 02-03). And, by the second definition, the Suns were rebuilt in a single offseason in 2004-05 (Nash + Richardson). And, if you want to split hairs, you could make the argument that the 95-96 Bulls fit the criteria for the first definition.
This argument depends entirely on what your personal definition of "rebuilt" is. If you're saying that a team can only be considered to be "rebuilt" if they went from a championship contender to out of the playoffs back to a championship contender, then you might be right. I, however, define "rebuilt" as a team that either a) went from contender to non-contender back to contender, b) a team that went from playoffs to out of the playoffs back to the playoffs, or c) a team that completely overhauled its lineup and either went from first-round and out to contender or went from nobodies to a playoff team overnight.
Dozens of team have fit the criteria of the third definition, most recently Denver, which opened the 2003-04 season with three new starters and six new players in their top eight (four and seven, respectively, if you consider that Camby only played twenty-nine games, and only started nine, in 02-03). And, by the second definition, the Suns were rebuilt in a single offseason in 2004-05 (Nash + Richardson). And, if you want to split hairs, you could make the argument that the 95-96 Bulls fit the criteria for the first definition.
Actually there was only ONE year of slow, excuciating improvement -- and that was yr 2 where it looked like we might be stagnating + getting no better. Yr 1 was a spectacular rebirth for trhe franchise. Yr 3 was a HUGE jump up from 44 win team to a 55 win team on the cusp of elite. Yr 4 was the next jump to elite title contender. Only during the 2nd yr did we seem to be slowing down.
And regardless, that situation has almost no resemblance to this one.
And regardless, that situation has almost no resemblance to this one.
You and others act as if the Kings had a choice in the matter. This may be a suprise but, you can't just trade players because it works. Believe it or not the other teams GM has to agree and sign off to sending you the player you want astonishing as it may seem that is how it works. And all this "we let talent walk away" WTF is that about. I assume you are talking about Bonzi in which WE OFFERED HIM 5 FRICKING YEARS AT 36 MILLION FRICKING DOLLARS. I am sorry but some of you have a major problem grasping that fact that we tried to get him. No GM in their right mind would off Bonzi Wells any more than that. He only started 41 games last season and was a modest scorer and missed alot of easy layups which led to him getting his on rebounds once twice sometimes 3 times in one possesion. Now call me an idiot but volleying the ball back and forth to yourself 2 or 3 times AT LEAST ONCE every game does not make you the best rebounder in the world. Anyway I will be happy to take anybodys bet that we have a better record this year than last.
It makes complete sense to me why they haven't gone out and completely reshaped the roster again. They don't even know how these players will do under Muss. If they went out and invested all kinds of money through trades then they hamper themselves from being able to get out of the situation later on.
I am not even going to guess how this team will do because I don't even know what Musselman has up his sleeve. These players will either fit into what he wants to do or not. If not then expect to see some movement at the deadline.
I am not even going to guess how this team will do because I don't even know what Musselman has up his sleeve. These players will either fit into what he wants to do or not. If not then expect to see some movement at the deadline.
hey read my posts on the Bonzi deal before you get the pitchfors and light the torches. Never said the Kings should pay him what ever it takes... said just the opisit. My complaint is NOT with GP/Maloofs letting Bonzi walk, sign and trade would have been nice but for crying out loud when your bigest hole is at the 4/5 over paying for a middling 1/2 makes NO sense! And if they were going to pay nealry the full MLE for a gaurd get an expiring contract.
Bonzi isn't worth the money he wanted true
But he showed up when it mattered the most in the playoffs in crunch time when the games were on the line when winning and losing really was important. Moses malone use to volley ball his own misses so did dennis rodman, this to me is a sign of a player who instinctively knows how to rebound the basketball well.He clearly at 6'5 was the best rebounder on the team last season without a doubt and most importantly he showed leadership and high level play when the going got tough.
Anyhow this team with all the holes isn't a better team record wise than last seasons squad from my perspective.
But he showed up when it mattered the most in the playoffs in crunch time when the games were on the line when winning and losing really was important. Moses malone use to volley ball his own misses so did dennis rodman, this to me is a sign of a player who instinctively knows how to rebound the basketball well.He clearly at 6'5 was the best rebounder on the team last season without a doubt and most importantly he showed leadership and high level play when the going got tough.
Anyhow this team with all the holes isn't a better team record wise than last seasons squad from my perspective.
yeah Really once the dead weight got traded we looked like a team that wanted to win again. all my year as a kings fan i will embrace anybody that puts on a Kings uniform as long as they give the effort i feel is there. Bonzi had it but when he didn't sign well pee on Bonzi. Peja did want to be on our team and he showed it with his effort. I am glad that dead weight is gone. Now Kenny Thomas is the sore thumb. Ohter than KT I am happy with anybody even Jason Hart as he shows he wants to give his all when he is on the court. i just don't buy KT get 10 to 15 rebonds for a month straight then not even getting over 5 for 2 or 3 weeks. that is lack of effort and he probably got pissed about something.
I think there are too many factors at work, and we don't know if we should blame GP/Maloofs for not being able to fill the hold at 4/5. We have 3 players at 4/5 position who consider themselves starters. Obviously, getting a big ticket player at that position means that you have to trade one or more of them. While SAR is a bargain at his price, not sure if trading Brad or KT is easy (in particular, KT), without sweeting the pot by offering some of the kids, which is probably counter-productive in the long run. Also, don't know how Artest will react if we do get a big name player (KG???) at trading deadline. Right now, this is his team. Will he be willing to share/concede leadership with another player.
The more obvious way was to get a more seasoned vet to fill the hole in the middle. We plan to use Potato, Woods and the kids either (if they see any court time). It would have been great to see some one like Reggie Evans there. Not sure what options Petrie tried, and what he was willing to offer.
Finally, on Salmons. The consensus seems to be that we overpaid for him. Time shall tell. However, I think there is a fair chance that he voided his Toronto contract based on some assurance from us. Not sure if it is legal. However, I find it tough to believe that a player like Salmons walked out of a guaranteed contract of roughly similar value as what we offered him, without a backup offer.
The more obvious way was to get a more seasoned vet to fill the hole in the middle. We plan to use Potato, Woods and the kids either (if they see any court time). It would have been great to see some one like Reggie Evans there. Not sure what options Petrie tried, and what he was willing to offer.
Finally, on Salmons. The consensus seems to be that we overpaid for him. Time shall tell. However, I think there is a fair chance that he voided his Toronto contract based on some assurance from us. Not sure if it is legal. However, I find it tough to believe that a player like Salmons walked out of a guaranteed contract of roughly similar value as what we offered him, without a backup offer.
Totally agree with this. None of us know what kind of offense Musselman is going to run yet, and it is hard to picture all of these players together because the only offense we have seen for years is Rick Adelman's offense. It may all make sense once we see the new game plan.
Also, it seems like a lot of people were all hoping to land a big-named player this off-season through S&T or some other means, but I think that they are forgetting that we already did that last season...with Ron Artest. He is one of the biggest names in the NBA for talent and we have him on our team! I think that it is so easy to forget what we have because he's not being talked about every day in the trade rumors, but I for one am so excited to see him play a full season for us and be a strong leader for our team.
I know that people have big dreams to land KG or some other big name (and I don't blame you at all for wishing), but instead of being disappointed in what we didn't get, I am going to be excited about who we landed in our big trade last year.
Also, it seems like a lot of people were all hoping to land a big-named player this off-season through S&T or some other means, but I think that they are forgetting that we already did that last season...with Ron Artest. He is one of the biggest names in the NBA for talent and we have him on our team! I think that it is so easy to forget what we have because he's not being talked about every day in the trade rumors, but I for one am so excited to see him play a full season for us and be a strong leader for our team.
I know that people have big dreams to land KG or some other big name (and I don't blame you at all for wishing), but instead of being disappointed in what we didn't get, I am going to be excited about who we landed in our big trade last year.