Not to Beat an Old Horse..but I will Anyway

[bench_blob]

Where are the C-Webb fans who bashed the trade for the Philly Trio now? Do you still want him back? Would you still not do that trade? Trade throw-in Corlis Wiliamson is more effective than C-Webb this year!!! And the Sixer still owe him approximately $35 friggin million dollars on a two year prorated basis. and would love to buy him out and terminate a failed marriage.

Let's go the stats, that per Muss, never lie!!!

Chris Webber 18 games 30 minutes per game 11.0 points 8 boards anemic shooting of 39%!

Big Nasty 28 games 17 minutes per game 8.3 points per game 3.1 boards

Who would you rather have: The book on C-Webb: his ego, his knees, his jump shot, his defense are all insufferable!!! The book on Big Nasty: a semi-productive role player.

Yes, we have it bad Kings fans, and our 4 spot of k9 and SAR are arguably the most impotent tag team power forward combination in the NBA.....but it could be a lot worse if C-Webb was still in a Kings uniform.

Petrie can be second guessed on a number of personnel moves, but this move is a proven winner....and this trade alone, in retrospect and final conclusive analysis should grant him a reprieve for the debacle of a season we are currently witnessing.

 

[Heuge]

Ill still take CWebb over the collective garbage. Kenny Thomas isnt going anywhere anytime soon.

To explain my reason would be to beat a dead horse as you say.

 

[BMiller52]

Ill still take CWebb over the collective garbage. Kenny Thomas isnt going anywhere anytime soon.

To explain my reason would be to beat a dead horse as you say.

That's how I feel also.

 

[SacKings384]

My favorite player is C-Webb and I want to see him win everytime they play. However I think it was a good trade watching Webb the way he is now. Now he would probably be playing a little bit better, but Webb needs to accept that he isn't a star anymore. It still looks like he hasn't accepted it, and would probably be very unhappy in Sacto with his significantly reduced role. Do I wish the best player we got out of that deal wasn't Corliss Williamson? Hell yeah... But do I think it was a bad trade now that I have the Tuesday Quarterback thing goin on? Nope...

 

[VF21]

You can't compare apples and sawhorses.

We don't KNOW how the Kings would be right now because we have no way of knowing what type of role Webb would play on a team with Bibby, Martin, Artest and Miller.

Yeah, Mike Bibby, Kevin Martin, Ron Artest, Chris Webber and Brad Miller...

But silly me. I guess I'm the only one who can see potential in that kind of line-up.

I'm sorry, bench_blob, but I'm not going to take your bait and argue any further.

 

[NikateeN]

I like Webber, but im a big Corliss fan and love seeing him back in Sac, though i would like to see what Webber COULD be if he were still on the Kings, maybe things would be different with him, maybe not, we will never know.

 

[KingDog]

You can't compare apples and sawhorses.

We don't KNOW how the Kings would be right now because we have no way of knowing what type of role Webb would play on a team with Bibby, Martin, Artest and Miller.

Yeah, Mike Bibby, Kevin Martin, Ron Artest, Chris Webber and Brad Miller...

But silly me. I guess I'm the only one who can see potential in that kind of line-up.

I'm sorry, bench_blob, but I'm not going to take your bait and argue any further.

VF...I'd take that any day of the week,etc. The passing skills are the last to go. .......Or so they say. Just wish he was a little (alot) easier on the wallet.

 

[love_them_kings]

Ill still take CWebb over the collective garbage. Kenny Thomas isnt going anywhere anytime soon.

Ditto.

I agree the CWebb/Philly experience is a "failed marriage". It wasn't meant to be, and they've never figured out how to use him. That wasn't the case on the Kings, and I think we could use him.

 

[jcassio]

Loved C-Webb as a King, but after the knee thing, he hurt us. We were better when he was in street clothes, which may be hard to remember, but is painfully true. At this point he's about as mobile as Ralph Sampson was (as a King). Well, almost.

HOWEVER, before anyone congratulates themselves or GP for the 'great trade' of Webber and his onerous contract for a bunch of flexible/moveable parts (as GP said, more or less), it doesn't look to me like those flexible parts have been all that flexible (or productive) for us. Skinner had some value, but what do we have to show for him? We have, well, Pot and his relatively small, expiring contract. KT may or may not have market value around the league - it's hard to figure that one out. We need a better PF so bad that it's hard to imagine GP not trading him as part of a package to address some of our needs. The fact that he's still here says a lot, and it's not because of how valuable he is to us. KT had one year as a double-double player, but I think that's history. Now he's a guy who hurts his team when he touches the ball, sometimes is a good rebounder, is a major liability against the better PFs, and often has a bad attitude. He might be an OK PF with a stud playing alongside him at center, but he isn't helping us much. In fact, there's some reason to think we'd do better with him in street clothes. Corliss is a decent role player and is occasionally productive. Probably a good guy to have on a team with younger players. No complaints about Corliss, so long as we remember who he is and who he isn't. So, really, the thing that keeps the Webber trade from being a slam-dunk from a Kings POV is that we are stuck with an overpaid KT and his presence hurts us - especially given the limitations of our other personnel.

 

[nbrans]

Death, taxes and Webber trade rehash threads.

 

[Kev.in]

You can't compare apples and sawhorses.

We don't KNOW how the Kings would be right now because we have no way of knowing what type of role Webb would play on a team with Bibby, Martin, Artest and Miller.

Yeah, Mike Bibby, Kevin Martin, Ron Artest, Chris Webber and Brad Miller...

But silly me. I guess I'm the only one who can see potential in that kind of line-up.

I'm sorry, bench_blob, but I'm not going to take your bait and argue any further.

I can see the potential and ever since the trade for Artest, I've been wondering how it'd work out with Webber still in the PF spot. I think he would've gotten along really well with Bonzi and Ron and Kevin.

 

[Bricklayer]

Where are the C-Webb fans who bashed the trade for the Philly Trio now? Do you still want him back? Would you still not do that trade? Trade throw-in Corlis Wiliamson is more effective than C-Webb this year!!! And the Sixer still owe him approximately $35 friggin million dollars on a two year prorated basis. and would love to buy him out and terminate a failed marriage.

Actually, where am I? Right here listening to the same insufferable little gnats as I was before. We have gained absolutely nothing from that trade except endless heartache and moronic threads. Our PF position is pathetic, we've been stuck with an umoveable contract attached to an undersized grump, and we've struggled to even be considered mediocre ever since that day. And od course the crowning stupidity of it remains: we never stopped paying Chris Webber. He just got shorter, sadder, and took up more roster spots that could have gone to younger players, free agents, whatever. And now this offseason we finally get some of that contract off the books. But not enough to do anything with. And the rest of that contract lives on like zombie debt via KT. Meanwhile the Sixers will have a gigantic ender on their hands and clean the whole contract before we will. Financially its a wash at best. Oncourt only today can it even be said to be that, and its STILL doubtful. Webb's performance this year being attached as much as anything to the failed marriage. KT's to simple incompetence. Pot's not even that. And Corliss could have been had for a box of jelly doughnuts.

This thread doesn't get to be started by a new gerbil everytime somebody gets hurt or has a bad month. The underlying dynamics haven't changed a bit. We had 2 years from trading Webb to show dramatic improvement in order to jusify trading the best player in franchise history. At the end of those two years, he became a mega ending contract. And during those two years we maintained a sense of identity and continuity, even in decline. Well, we haven't. Now we have no identity, are in decline anyway, are hemmorraging fans, and don't even have the instant capspace contract coming off the books next year. Trading Webber was never the main issue. Trading him for crap was. Not only crap, but crap with contracts every bit as long and bad as his. It was garbage then, is garbage now. And you know what? So is this thread.

 

[Cal-Kings]

I missed the trade threads. Probably a good thing.

It's like you have a Cadillac that's a little old. It doesn't get quite the gas mileage it used to, it's a little worn, but it's still a Cadillac. You know that you can't take it down and trade it for a new Mercedes. So what do you do instead?

Well, the WRONG thing to do would be to trade the Cadillac for a bicycle, an old Honda motorcycle, and a skate board that will cost you AS MUCH to keep as the old Cadillac.

The trade was probably Petrie's most stupid act in his life. Not because Webber was still a Super Star, but because we traded him for a nothing and gained no financial advantage at all.

I understood at the time that nobody was going to give us KG or Duncan for Webber. But given that, the better option was to keep him.

If he's bought out by Philly, does that mean any team can pick him up?

The problem I see is Webber not realizing his limitations, not willing to work for a minimum. But the only place I could see him doing that is as a King. The fans here know what he is today.

The little bit he played after AI left, he looked like Vlade Divac. Then Cheeks benched him.

Wouldn't you take Vlade Divac back for a couple of years and have one of our stars retire as King as he should?

 

[GoGoGadget]

Where are the C-Webb fans who bashed the trade for the Philly Trio now? Do you still want him back? Would you still not do that trade? Trade throw-in Corlis Wiliamson is more effective than C-Webb this year!!! And the Sixer still owe him approximately $35 friggin million dollars on a two year prorated basis. and would love to buy him out and terminate a failed marriage.

Timing/circumstances a bit off for starting this thread.

This is the kind of thread that we should only see if the Kings became an unstoppable powerhouse and legitimate title contender after the trade. It would still be childish, unnecessary and worth little more reaction than a roll of the eyes, but would make at least a little bit of sense.

We're not, though. We suck. Worse than we did before. And, woohoo, we also managed to become a hell of a lot less flexible at the same time, seriously limiting our options in finding ways to un-suck.

Just stupidity the whole way through. Jettisoned a still productive player for expensive garbage, drained the life out of the organization, ****ed our future and managed to do it with a certain "thanks for being our franchise player and revitalizing the team, but we've decided that we want you gone at any cost" sleaziness that I, for one, have not been very proud to support.

So, where am I? Still here. Still frustrated. Still waiting for some sign that there was an actual thought process behind that trade and that we're moving towards... anything, really. And still absolutely, positively, 100% sure that trading Chris Webber, declining or not, for Kenny Thomas, Corliss Williamson and (essentially) Vitaly Potopenko was ****ing retarded.

 

[Merdiesel]

Yeah look at our team now after the Webber trade... We're the laughing stock of the league. What was the point of this thread again?..


...Trading our heart and soul of the team was the worst move the Kings ever made.

 

[G_M]

...Trading our heart and soul of the team was the worst move the Kings ever made.

You mean Vlade? He was the heart an soul.....

 

[nbrans]

And just so the pro-trade voice is represented:

Kenny Thomas is a better player right now than Chris Webber. He may be overpaid, but not so drastically that he kills the cap. Meanwhile, the Kings have a real shot at the free agency market this season because 2/3 of Webber's salary comes off the books.

If Webber were still here this team would be stuck financially and they'd be saddled with an aging superstar who is poisoning the chemistry of his current team because he can't accept he's not a superstar anymore. Instead the Kings moved on and started the rebuilding process rather than being forced to wait until the end of next year to even be able to begin.

The trade wasn't pretty, but it was necessary.

 

[Rockmeister]

So, where am I? Still here. Still frustrated. Still waiting for some sign that there was an actual thought process behind that trade and that we're moving towards... anything, really. And still absolutely, positively, 100% sure that trading Chris Webber, declining or not, for Kenny Thomas, Corliss Williamson and (essentially) Vitaly Potopenko was ****ing retarded.

I couldn't have said this better myself.

 

[DocHolliday]

I agree with Grant Napear. The Chris Webber trade is the worse trade in Philadelphia history. I'll take the guys we got over the way Chris Webber plays these days.

The homers of CWebb will alway say they'd still take him over the guys we got, but that is pure homerism and completely biased.

A team is actually considering a buy out which will be no less than 20+million just to not have the guy there. I mean really think about that, that is very telling about how bad it is.

If you would still take Webb in the condition he is in now you are flat out crazy. This is nothing personal against Chris Webber. He does a lot for communities and he is a nice enough guy. This isn't personal, this purely about his performance ON the court. His caree is all but done. It's not his fault. His body gave out.

 

[LMM]

Just stupidity the whole way through. Jettisoned a still productive player for expensive garbage, drained the life out of the organization, ****ed our future and managed to do it with a certain "thanks for being our franchise player and revitalizing the team, but we've decided that we want you gone at any cost" sleaziness that I, for one, have not been very proud to support.

So, where am I? Still here. Still frustrated. Still waiting for some sign that there was an actual thought process behind that trade and that we're moving towards... anything, really. And still absolutely, positively, 100% sure that trading Chris Webber, declining or not, for Kenny Thomas, Corliss Williamson and (essentially) Vitaly Potopenko was ****ing retarded.

^^ Agree.

 

[Cal-Kings]

I agree with Grant Napear. The Chris Webber trade is the worse trade in Philadelphia history. I'll take the guys we got over the way Chris Webber plays these days.

The homers of CWebb will alway say they'd still take him over the guys we got, but that is pure homerism and completely biased.

A team is actually considering a buy out which will be no less than 20+million just to not have the guy there. I mean really think about that, that is very telling about how bad it is.

If you would still take Webb in the condition he is in now you are flat out crazy. This is nothing personal against Chris Webber. He does a lot for communities and he is a nice enough guy. This isn't personal, this purely about his performance ON the court. His caree is all but done. It's not his fault. His body gave out.

Philly wants to rebuild, they don't want what Webber offers. They've never understood him. They still think he's the 24 year old who can jump. They never saw how to use him properly.

I think what YOU are missing is that those of us who have watched Webber play these last few years in Philly understood EXACTLY what he has to offer today.

Like I said, think Vlade Divac on the floor passing to a cutting Martin, playing PNR with Bibby. He's still stronger than Brad Miller on defense and even a little bit quicker. I watched him defend KG and he was amazing.

Most of what you see with Webber this season is an underappreciated player who doesn't know where he fits on his team, largely because the Sixers have moved on and are leaving him behind.

By the way, I'll refrain from calling you names (homer, crazy) simply because you disagree with my assessment. Although I will suggest you tone down the insults.

 

[Cal-Kings]

And you mention Grant Napear as some kind of objective opinion?

Hogwash!

Napear used to kiss Webber's boots until Webber decided not to come on Napear's show any longer. Then Napear started slamming Webber.
I still remember the nonsense from Napear when Webber was traded. Napear kept claiming "Now our defense will be great! Now that we're rid of Webber, we're going to have the best defense!"

I laughed when he actually made that claim on air to Elston Turner. Elston tried to keep from calling Napear an idiot to his face and simply said "Uh, no. I don't see that this will make our defense better at all."

So let's talk about bias in opinion and make sure we have Napear right up front.

 

[nbrans]

To reemphasize what DocHoliday said, Philly is contemplating paying CWebb just to not show up anymore. It means they will not be able to trade his contract -- all those people who said Webber's contract would be a big trading chip come next season are wrong. Philly is basically sucking up the last two years of his contract and would pay him just to not be around anymore.

Also, here's what our payroll would look like with Webber (this is assuming SAR still came here, which is a stretch):

2006/2007:
Webber: $20,718,000
Mike Bibby $12,500,000
Brad Miller $9,625,000
Ron Artest $7,150,000
Shareef Abdur-Rahim $5,400,000
John Salmons $4,400,000
Jason Hart $1,680,000
Quincy Douby $1,240,920
Francisco Garcia $1,092,600
Maurice Taylor $1,071,225
Kevin Martin $1,002,840
Ronnie Price $664,209

TOTAL $66 million

So, ok, maybe we don't sign Salmons because we don't want to pay the tax and Garcia is the backup small forward. So, no Salmons.

Now, what would our options be if Bibby opts out? Um... nothing. Not even cap space. Not even room to use the MLE, otherwise you're over the tax.

At least now we have options. If Bibby opts out we have an insurance policy -- cap space, thanks to the Webber trade. We can go after Chauncey Billups or Mo Williams. So, thank goodness for that, one of the many benefits of the Webber trade.

 

[Heuge]

To reemphasize what DocHoliday said, Philly is contemplating paying CWebb just to not show up anymore. It means they will not be able to trade his contract -- all those people who said Webber's contract would be a big trading chip come next season are wrong. Philly is basically sucking up the last two years of his contract and would pay him just to not be around anymore.

Also, here's what our payroll would look like with Webber (this is assuming SAR still came here, which is a stretch):

2006/2007:
Webber: $20,718,000
Mike Bibby $12,500,000
Brad Miller $9,625,000
Ron Artest $7,150,000
Shareef Abdur-Rahim $5,400,000
John Salmons $4,400,000
Jason Hart $1,680,000
Quincy Douby $1,240,920
Francisco Garcia $1,092,600
Maurice Taylor $1,071,225
Kevin Martin $1,002,840
Ronnie Price $664,209

TOTAL $66 million

So, ok, maybe we don't sign Salmons because we don't want to pay the tax and Garcia is the backup small forward. So, no Salmons.

Now, what would our options be if Bibby opts out? Um... nothing. Not even cap space. Not even room to use the MLE, otherwise you're over the tax.

At least now we have options. If Bibby opts out we have an insurance policy -- cap space, thanks to the Webber trade. We can go after Chauncey Billups or Mo Williams. So, thank goodness for that, one of the many benefits of the Webber trade.

All this is assuming we did not have a deeper run into the playoffs after we got Ron. If we were close to beating SA without CWebb we may have been better prepared to go further into the playoofs.

Also, why would a free agent like Billups want to come here now. The cupboard is empty. The star would be completely in it for the money.

 

[nbrans]

All this is assuming we did not have a deeper run into the playoffs after we got Ron. If we were close to beating SA without CWebb we may have been better prepared to go further into the playoofs.

Also, why would a free agent like Billups want to come here now. The cupboard is empty. The star would be completely in it for the money.

We weren't even remotely close to beating San Antonio, and Chris Webber would not have been the difference.

And money talks. If Bibby opts out the Kings are going to have a whole lot to spend.

 

[Heuge]

We weren't even remotely close to beating San Antonio, and Chris Webber would not have been the difference.

And money talks. If Bibby opts out the Kings are going to have a whole lot to spend.

Well, if we hadnt traded him we probably wouldnt have been playing SA in the first place.

 

[nbrans]

Well, if we hadnt traded him we probably wouldnt have been playing SA in the first place.

You're right, we may not have even been in the playoffs entirely -- just like Philadelphia.

 

[Warhawk]

All this is assuming we did not have a deeper run into the playoffs after we got Ron. If we were close to beating SA without CWebb we may have been better prepared to go further into the playoofs.

Also, why would a free agent like Billups want to come here now. The cupboard is empty. The star would be completely in it for the money.

Which means nothing in regards to the salary situation. Whether you miss the PO or win it all has no ramification on salaries.

 

[Heuge]

You're right, we may not have even been in the playoffs entirely -- just like Philadelphia.

Clearly that is not what I was thinking. Our team is significantly better then Phili and we knew how to use Webber, wrinkles and all. Lets not forget that he had a number of very good games just prior to the trade.

Really though there are two better reasons why I hated and still hate this trade. 1) We got rid of our heart and soul for expensive crap players who will be on our roster long after CWebb will be out of his contract. 2) The way we treated a guy who led us out of being one of the worse franchises in professional sport. We tell him good riddens and we'll take other teams trash to get rid of you.

Are we better then before? Heck no!
Do we have a better future? Well the future around here looks bleak and it looks bleak for well after CWebb contract is up.

 

[Bricklayer]

I agree with Grant Napear. The Chris Webber trade is the worse trade in Philadelphia history. I'll take the guys we got over the way Chris Webber plays these days.

The homers of CWebb will alway say they'd still take him over the guys we got, but that is pure homerism and completely biased.

A team is actually considering a buy out which will be no less than 20+million just to not have the guy there. I mean really think about that, that is very telling about how bad it is.

If you would still take Webb in the condition he is in now you are flat out crazy. This is nothing personal against Chris Webber. He does a lot for communities and he is a nice enough guy. This isn't personal, this purely about his performance ON the court. His caree is all but done. It's not his fault. His body gave out.

While we are going on about how done Chris Webber is, just thought I might throw this in:

Chris Webber would, this year, even assuming that he's not the 20-10 guy of last year, that the chaos, injuries, and general bad cess at Philly hasn't mattered in the least in artificially pulling down his numbers this season:

a) be leading us in rebounding
b) be leading us in shotblocking
c) be 2nd on the team in assists behind Mike
d) would be notching more steals than any of our current bigs
e) would be tied with Reef for the scoring lead amongst our bigs


And that's assuming that Webb has magically declined this year form a hobbled 20-10 to merely a roleplayer. THAT'S how sucky what we've got is. That's how vast the talent gulf was. A 33yr old man on one leg being panned for "being done" is still outperforming our entire frontcourt.


Just thought I'd mention it.