Not to Beat an Old Horse..but I will Anyway

[nbrans]

^He'd also be:

a) our worst defender
b) our third major player shooting under 41%
c) our most injury prone player

The only people anywhere who think Webber is still a player of any significance are all on this message board.

People go on and on and on about how this team isn't competing for a championship so we should blow it up. Does anyone in their right mind think Webber can be a major player on a championship team? So why have Webber, except for sentimentality?

He can't guard anyone, he shoots under 40% and doesn't get to the line. People go on and on and on about how this team needs shotblocking. Webber's not a shotblocker!

Meanwhile, Philly can't trade him and the Kings, if they had him, would be held hostage by his contract.

People use the word homer a lot on this board, but nothing --nothing-- compares to Webber's fans.

 

[HndsmCelt]

^He'd also be:

a) our worst defender
b) our third major player shooting under 41%
c) our most injury prone player

The only people anywhere who think Webber is still a player of any significance are all on this message board.

People go on and on and on about how this team isn't competing for a championship so we should blow it up. Does anyone in their right mind think Webber can be a major player on a championship team? So why have Webber, except for sentimentality?

He can't guard anyone, he shoots under 40% and doesn't get to the line. People go on and on and on about how this team needs shotblocking. Webber's not a shotblocker!

Meanwhile, Philly can't trade him and the Kings, if they had him, would be held hostage by his contract.

People use the word homer a lot on this board, but nothing --nothing-- compares to Webber's fans.

While your citieng unquatiafiable claims we might as well also include that a Tenured Webber would have mantaind what this team missed the MOST when he left... a team leader.

No one is claiming that Webber is the player he once was, but considering what the Maloofs GOT for him AND what happend to this team since I'd call it a bad move. Kenny has brought nothing but rebounding and consistantly bad attitude allong with ocasional scoreing, Corless has played well but is no PF much less Center, and lastly we traded off Skiner for Pot and what has he done?

Oh yes one more thing remember the OTHER guy in that trade... Barnes... is there anyone who does not want him back? So if you wnat talk aobut the Webber trade anc compare numbers don't cherry pick select parts of the trade compare the whole deal. Beceause we did not jsut trade damaged goods for "movable pieces" We traded the Team leader and a young hard workding player, both of whom WANTED to be a King for so called movealbe pices only one of which has moved and that was a compleet fiasco. The remainnign tow Kenny and Coreless besides NOT being leaders don't bring half the game that Webber and Barnes do now.

Finaly no one on this board is saying we should blow the team up beceause we can't compeet for the championship. Although I can only speak for my self I have been callking for full scale rebuild (as opposed to the recent half measures) beceause we can't compeet for the PLAYOFFS... unless of course you consider 7 & 8 seeds to be real chances rather than sacrafical lambs.

 

[kennadog]

Does anyone in their right mind think Webber can be a major player on a championship team?

I didn't notice that anyone posting in this thread made that claim.

 

[nbrans]

While your citieng unquatiafiable claims we might as well also include that a Tenured Webber would have mantaind what this team missed the MOST when he left... a team leader.

No one is claiming that Webber is the player he once was, but considering what the Maloofs GOT for him AND what happend to this team since I'd call it a bad move. Kenny has brought nothing but rebounding and consistantly bad attitude allong with ocasional scoreing, Corless has played well but is no PF much less Center, and lastly we traded off Skiner for Pot and what has he done?

Oh yes one more thing remember the OTHER guy in that trade... Barnes... is there anyone who does not want him back? So if you wnat talk aobut the Webber trade anc compare numbers don't cherry pick select parts of the trade compare the whole deal. Beceause we did not jsut trade damaged goods for "movable pieces" We traded the Team leader and a young hard workding player, both of whom WANTED to be a King for so called movealbe pices only one of which has moved and that was a compleet fiasco. The remainnign tow Kenny and Coreless besides NOT being leaders don't bring half the game that Webber and Barnes do now.

Finaly no one on this board is saying we should blow the team up beceause we can't compeet for the championship. Although I can only speak for my self I have been callking for full scale rebuild (as opposed to the recent half measures) beceause we can't compeet for the PLAYOFFS... unless of course you consider 7 & 8 seeds to be real chances rather than sacrafical lambs.

I think your points about losing Webber as a leader are well-taken and that was a blow to the Kings, although I question how good of a leader Webber really is these days. He has the perfect opportunity to be a mentor and an unselfish player in Philadelphia and Philly is basically going to pay him to stay away amid trade requests and his open complaints in the media about how they shouldn't ask him to change his game. Not exactly the traits you look for in a leader.

And everyone in the league was wrong about Barnes. Anyone could have had him this offseason for the minimum. Golden State got him, he blew up, and great for him. But if the Kings, or anyone, wanted him after the trade they could have had him. That's not exactly a consequence of the Webber trade.

 

[LA King Fan II]

I've flip-flopped on Webber.

Back in the early good ol' days (the five game loss to Utah and the intial loss to the Lakers) Webber was an amazing talent. He was an excellent player on our back to back Championship caliber teams before the knee thing and his constructive surgery that led to the desconstruction of our squad.

I wanted him gone. His attitude wasn't helping and was no longer a superstar. We got nothing in return. That sucked. I honestly can't see how anyone can see Kenny Thomas as a better player than Webber now. Webber knows how to play the game as a team player and that is something Thomas knows nothing off. Webber can play flat footed and slow much better than Miller and he is also twice the player as SAR. He makes others around him better. I don't think we have one guy (offensively at least) who does that for this squad.

He's no star now, but Webber is better than anything we got which is better than nothing - which is what we got in the trade we made.

 

[HndsmCelt]

Philly killed Webber as a leader. He took a back seat to AI and was then consinged to the bench. It's doubtfull Webber will ever be a team team leader again... and mores the pitty.

 

[kupman]

While we are going on about how done Chris Webber is, just thought I might throw this in:

Chris Webber would, this year, even assuming that he's not the 20-10 guy of last year, that the chaos, injuries, and general bad cess at Philly hasn't mattered in the least in artificially pulling down his numbers this season:

a) be leading us in rebounding
b) be leading us in shotblocking
c) be 2nd on the team in assists behind Mike
d) would be notching more steals than any of our current bigs
e) would be tied with Reef for the scoring lead amongst our bigs


And that's assuming that Webb has magically declined this year form a hobbled 20-10 to merely a roleplayer. THAT'S how sucky what we've got is. That's how vast the talent gulf was. A 33yr old man on one leg being panned for "being done" is still outperforming our entire frontcourt.


Just thought I'd mention it.

You should also probably mention 21 million that we would paying him this year - and even more next year.

 

[Heuge]

You should also probably mention 21 million that we would paying him this year - and even more next year.

on the flipside it needs to be mention that Kenny Thomas is here through the end of the decade

 

[nbrans]

on the flipside it needs to be mention that Kenny Thomas is here through the end of the decade

He may very well be, although one thing though about Kenny's contract that people don't often mention is that he has an early termination option after next season. It's possible that he could use it to go for a longer deal when he's still 30.

 

[Heuge]

He may very well be, although one thing though about Kenny's contract that people don't often mention is that he has an early termination option after next season. It's possible that he could use it to go for a longer deal when he's still 30.

That would be nice. I havent seen that info yet, do you have a link?

 

[kupman]

on the flipside it needs to be mention that Kenny Thomas is here through the end of the decade

It is true that K9 is overpaid. I wish his agent worked for me.

However:

21 million - 7 million = 14 million to spend somewhere else.

GP cut his losses and is doing the best he can with an unlucky situation - we should do the same and move-on already..

 

[Troy]

Loved C-Webb as a King, but after the knee thing, he hurt us. We were better when he was in street clothes, which may be hard to remember, but is painfully true. At this point he's about as mobile as Ralph Sampson was (as a King). Well, almost.

HOWEVER, before anyone congratulates themselves or GP for the 'great trade' of Webber and his onerous contract for a bunch of flexible/moveable parts (as GP said, more or less), it doesn't look to me like those flexible parts have been all that flexible (or productive) for us. Skinner had some value, but what do we have to show for him? We have, well, Pot and his relatively small, expiring contract. KT may or may not have market value around the league - it's hard to figure that one out. We need a better PF so bad that it's hard to imagine GP not trading him as part of a package to address some of our needs. The fact that he's still here says a lot, and it's not because of how valuable he is to us. KT had one year as a double-double player, but I think that's history. Now he's a guy who hurts his team when he touches the ball, sometimes is a good rebounder, is a major liability against the better PFs, and often has a bad attitude. He might be an OK PF with a stud playing alongside him at center, but he isn't helping us much. In fact, there's some reason to think we'd do better with him in street clothes. Corliss is a decent role player and is occasionally productive. Probably a good guy to have on a team with younger players. No complaints about Corliss, so long as we remember who he is and who he isn't. So, really, the thing that keeps the Webber trade from being a slam-dunk from a Kings POV is that we are stuck with an overpaid KT and his presence hurts us - especially given the limitations of our other personnel.

It sure was hard sending CWebb packing, but he wasn't the player before the injury obviously. Besides losing CWebb, we traded Barnes away which seems like nothing, but look at how good he is doing with GS. The guy has really gotten good and I while I'm not a Cisco hater, I'd love Barnes instead. Would he have developed his much improved shooting if he stayed with us, who knows?

K9 is really hurting us, you know Muss knows this and starts K9, but he doesn't get that many minutes. Muss is like, if you are going to be a cry baby and need to start, I'll start you and then sit you for long periods of time.

Corliss has really come in and played good for us, especially in the suicidal center spot when we play small ball. I really like Corliss and he is great in the locker room, so who knows, we might just sign him another year or two in the offseason.

I totally wish we still had Skinner. I still don't understand that trade, except to get under some salary line. While he wasn't our savior, the guy played with heart and toughness.

At the end of the year we wash off about 1/2 of Webber's $20M in Corliss at $6.5M and Pot at $3.6M, the other is stuck in K9 for a long time!

 

[GoGoGadget]

If Bibby opts out the Kings are going to have a whole lot to spend.

At the expense of saying goodbye to one of the most appealing free agents on the market.

 

[whozit]

I haven't posted for a good while, but I will throw my two cents that aren't worth a penny in.

I supported the trade for the reasons given at the time. I do think the intentions were for "flexible pieces." If I recall, the summer after the trade the new CBA was signed and with it the market changed. The tax was no longer a question if it was even going to be applied or what the trigger point would be if it was enacted. With the new CBA, the tax was a given and the trigger amount known in advance. The soft cap had in a sense become a "hard" cap, resulting in teams selling low to get under it if at all possible. The Kings "flexible" pieces simply became too expensive given the new market. That miscalculation is on management.

It can be argued that it was still a move that had to be made, but that requires accepting a lot of assumptions that can't be proven. The same for the other side. Too many variables. I do think that is one trade neither side can be too fond of. If one of the selling points to justify a prior trade, is that you didn't get as worse as the other side ............the trade left a little bit to be desired. I do think that Petrie is a very good GM, and a lot of the pluses that are attributed to that trade have resulted from damage control instead of being the plan from the beginning. This is still a work in progress with more questions than answers.

 

[Bibby_10]

He may very well be, although one thing though about Kenny's contract that people don't often mention is that he has an early termination option after next season. It's possible that he could use it to go for a longer deal when he's still 30.

Im just curious what team in their right mind would sign KT for a longer deal? Or any deal for that matter.

 

[Heuge]

It is true that K9 is overpaid. I wish his agent worked for me.

However:

21 million - 7 million = 14 million to spend somewhere else.

GP cut his losses and is doing the best he can with an unlucky situation - we should do the same and move-on already..

That argument will work next year but not this year. We actually saved about 4 million dollars this year (Dont forget Corlis, Pothead, and Monyia). Next year Webb's salary actually becomes realitively valuable as he is an expiring contract.

 

[nbrans]

That would be nice. I havent seen that info yet, do you have a link?

Listed here:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/salaries/kings.html

At the expense of saying goodbye to one of the most appealing free agents on the market.

Except that the Kings could either go even more appealing (Billups) or they could go younger (Williams). Mo Williams probably wouldn't be as high-priced as Bibby, leaving open the door for another acquisition. Plus, Mo is putting up as good numbers (if not better) than Bibby this season, and he's only 23.

Im just curious what team in their right mind would sign KT for a longer deal? Or any deal for that matter.

Hopefully Billy King will still be GM of the Sixers then.

But, in all seriousness, Reggie Evans got a five year deal, I'd think that someone who is looking for rebounding would be willing to give KT a deal. He probably wouldn't get as much money as he's making now, but it would be spread over a longer period. But who knows.

 

[Entity]

I'm sorry but, am I the only one privately hoping the Sixers buyout C-Webb and we pick him up for the vet minimum or something. Because I don't care about his knees his age or what have you he has got to be better than the PF group we got. I'd take him at that Elbow taking jumpers and dishing it off all day over getting every layup you take up blocked and not getting any rebounds.

 

[bench_blob]

Here's my response to all the venom and sarcasm in a few of the responses to my first post from Kings' fans. It is very simple, please try to follow:

(1) Ask the 76ers "If you could do the Webber deal all over again would you or would you NOT make that trade?" Their answer: HELL NO! He trashed their team, they underachieved every year he wore a 76er uniform, AI was exiled because C-Webb could not keep pace - they totally flopped as a duo Billy King envisioned; their season is in shambles again, and they are further away from legitimacy than our sorry team is.

Ask any 76er fan how the feel about Webber? Ask any 76er fan how they feel about the trade in retrospect? This might shed a little perspective for you.

And by the way, whether he's playing on the East coast or West coast, in a purple uniform, or a red uniform, he's the same hapless player. The system or teammates around him are neglible. His game is the same, he's a hobbled player with no lift, a very unreliable shot, a very good passer, and sure handed rebounder with no lateral movement; and incapable of help defense. The same player we traded is the same player the 76ers bought out, so that argument about finding the right system is totally naive.

(2) Ask the Kings, "In retrospect, if you go back and do it all over again, would you make the Webber trade?" Their answer HELL YES! The Kings rid themselves of huge contract, a huge ego, a huge ball-hog, and pourous defender who cannot accept the limitation of skills. And they dumped him off to the ONLY team stupid enough to take him and his contract. WHO CARES what we got in return - addition by subtraction, people. And plus, K9 had a good first year as a King. And Big Nasty is not terrible this year.

Obviously our decline has coincided with C-Webb's departure, but we have sorted rolled down a hill as a franchise instead of falling cliff into an abyss. With C-Webb = no cap room, no defense, no team chemistry, no hope.

I would also argue we would have NOT have Artest today because without C-Webb trade; Peja would have never showcased his skills enough to garner interest from the Pacers to pull off that deal. For those who don't recall C-Webb and Peja developed a riff towards the end, and it was not until C-Webb left that Peja actually showed a semblance of the skills that had made him an All-Star. Now, Artest can be criticzed, and rightfully so, though most observers do not comprehend the effect of a lingering injury. (Look at Mike Bibby and his recent play now that his wrist has healed.) But Ron-Ron has a ton of great basketball left in him, in a Kings uniform too.

Those are the facts. C-Webb was bought out today and he will add nothing to the foolish team he signs with next. Believe something else if you want, you are stuck in the memories of the past, and oblivious to the reality of the present.

I am big enough to admit I was wrong, so you can too. I NEVER thought K-Mart would be the player I am seeing today. I knew he had quickness. But I didn't know he could shoot like this, or play with such poise and smart-decision making. But I am glad to see every bit of success he has had and look forward to even more. All the Webber supporters who cannot acknowledge the obvious , that THE TRADE WAS A BLESSING, remind me eerily of Laker fans - ridiculous and unyielding.

This is my last post on C-Webb....I have nothing more to say, nothing more, that is, until he signs with a new team, ruins that team, and I cannot resist to say "I told you so" again

 

[VF21]

The horse is still dead, bench_blob.

 

[VF21]

It appears this thread has come full circle, since the OP has returned and is patting himself on the back and restating all the stuff he already posted. For that reason, I'm closing it...

 

[Bricklayer]

I would also argue we would have NOT have Artest today because without C-Webb trade; Peja would have never showcased his skills enough to garner interest from the Pacers to pull off that deal. For those who don't recall C-Webb and Peja developed a riff towards the end, and it was not until C-Webb left that Peja actually showed a semblance of the skills that had made him an All-Star.

Oh really. Do tell. Kind of odd that I remember Peja struggling horribly and being chased from town with his tail between his legs. Something about averaging 16ppg on 40% shooting or some such.

In any case, I will not so gently skirt the forum's posting rules by mentioning that only an idiot would try to post an "I told you so" thread at this time in this season and on this topic of all topics, while watching, or maybe not watching, the bumbling mess we currently call a frontcourt.