No King Exempt from a Trade
- Thread starter Warhawk
- Start date
Yes, and all of those guys you listed are NBAers.
There is absolutely no question the players in the Olympics/international competition are lesser. Not that they are ALL lesser -- very talented players dotting the landscape all over. But as a whole? Not even close. Mike played against a succession of guards not even good enough to be backups in the NBA. Its not at all the same thing as trying to stop Nash/Davis/Marbury/Iverson etc. on a nightly basis.
As for why the American team has been losing -- we've talked about that many times before. And its got little to do with talent. It basically boils down to us not caring enough to put together a real team. We cheated for years with having such overwhelming talent that we could do everything wrong and still win. Treat it as an exhibition and chance to sell some sneakers. Then the rest of the world gets better, and we get even more jaded and start sending second and third stringers, and the stupidity of the approach is finally revealed to even the most dense.
There is absolutely no question the players in the Olympics/international competition are lesser. Not that they are ALL lesser -- very talented players dotting the landscape all over. But as a whole? Not even close. Mike played against a succession of guards not even good enough to be backups in the NBA. Its not at all the same thing as trying to stop Nash/Davis/Marbury/Iverson etc. on a nightly basis.
As for why the American team has been losing -- we've talked about that many times before. And its got little to do with talent. It basically boils down to us not caring enough to put together a real team. We cheated for years with having such overwhelming talent that we could do everything wrong and still win. Treat it as an exhibition and chance to sell some sneakers. Then the rest of the world gets better, and we get even more jaded and start sending second and third stringers, and the stupidity of the approach is finally revealed to even the most dense.
For the first time in forever in both those teams cases. You are always closer with a superstar than without. They are the single rarest and most valauble birds you can land. They won't win a title singlehandedly, but the true ones will keep you in the playoff hunt year after year almost by themselves, and you are never more than 1 or 2 smart moves from being right at the top of the heap. You're certainly a lot closer to a title with a superstar needing good players to fill in around him than you are with good payers needing a superstar to lead them. Good players can be had. Superstars might only come along once in a generation to any one franchise.
Do you really think we are going to be able to get a "Superstar" to come to Sacramento who actually has the drive to lead us to a championship? Webber was the man who would do absolutely anything to take us to the promise land and we sent him across the country to play second fiddle to Iverson. No one who we get will care about the Kings as much as Webb did. Bibby needs to be the leader now and Mr. Petrie needs to be the one to get some tough defensive players to step up and dish out some pain...A "Superstar" is not the answer.
He's not talking about the Olympics, he's talking about the regional qualifying tournament in 2003. Off the top of my head, the best player Bibby went up against was Carlos Arroyo. The fact that he played good defense against a bunch of guards from the Americas, the best of which was Arroyo, doesn't say much about his ability to defend.
I'm glad the Maloofs are mentioning the need for defense. It looks like that will be a priority when making trades or signing free agents in the offseason.
Rick Adelman is a great offensive coach, but his situation with the Kings is reminding me of Don Nelson and the Mavericks. Nelson could never get the Mavericks to play good/great defense. Even when the players changed, Nelson wasn't able to get the Mavericks to play well consistently earlier this season. Then Avery Johnson came in and the players responded better, especially when it comes to defense. With Rick Adelman, the Kings haven't been able to do much defensively and a coaching change might be due.
Rick Adelman is a great offensive coach, but his situation with the Kings is reminding me of Don Nelson and the Mavericks. Nelson could never get the Mavericks to play good/great defense. Even when the players changed, Nelson wasn't able to get the Mavericks to play well consistently earlier this season. Then Avery Johnson came in and the players responded better, especially when it comes to defense. With Rick Adelman, the Kings haven't been able to do much defensively and a coaching change might be due.
While, I agree with the idea that whoever coaches the Kings should emphasize defense more, I would like to point out that when you say, "With Rick Adelman, the Kings haven't been able to do much defensively", you seem to completely ignore 2002-2003.
The people who want Adelman removed to become better defensively aren't making their case very well by constantly and incorrectly claiming that Adelman can't or hasn't coached good defensive teams.
The people who want Adelman removed to become better defensively aren't making their case very well by constantly and incorrectly claiming that Adelman can't or hasn't coached good defensive teams.
I have long maintained that Stojakovic's so-called "great" defense is counterfeit, and having seen what Rashard Lewis has done (or, more specifically, has failed to do) against Brent "Defense? What the hell's that?" Barry, I feel even more comfortable in standing by that statement. He might be an adequate defender on a good defensive team, but any team on which he's the "best" defender (which he isn't; Jackson is, at least when healthy) is doomed to failure.
And the best shooter in the NBA (The world? Don't make me laugh) plays for Seattle.
And the best shooter in the NBA (The world? Don't make me laugh) plays for Seattle.
If in 02-03 we were very good defensively (and really for about 3 years running there we were Top 7 or 8 in defense), and the coach has remained the same, but the players have changed, it makes no sense at all to place the primary blame for our lack of defense on the coaching. What has changed is the personnel. Dramatically. Not the coaching.
If you really just have to point fingers at somebody, then point them at Geoff. With the exception of the Webber injury, the rest of the personnel changes fall on his and the Maloofs' laps. Gone are Keon and JJ and Hedo and Pollard and Gerald and Doug, and in their places are Brad and Darius and Cutino and Kenny and Corliss etc.. Smaller, weaker, softer players.
Could Rick do more? Sure I suspose. But he's not the reason we have fallen so far defensively. We're short. We're "white". We can't jump over a pencil. We have no defensive captain. Little shotblocking. And our remaining "core" players have always set terrible examples for hustle and defense. Rick has PROVEN he can coach a very good defensive team if you give him good defensive personnel (not even great personnel -- that 02-03 team had good deffenders, but apart from Doug and maybe Keon (maybe), no superstuds). The people who haven't proven they can play any defense are the players themselves. They've never been good defenders ANYWHERE. Larry Brown, Gregg Popovich, Pat Riley etc. etc. -- they never coach the players we have here. They trade them to get people who actually understand defense.
If you really just have to point fingers at somebody, then point them at Geoff. With the exception of the Webber injury, the rest of the personnel changes fall on his and the Maloofs' laps. Gone are Keon and JJ and Hedo and Pollard and Gerald and Doug, and in their places are Brad and Darius and Cutino and Kenny and Corliss etc.. Smaller, weaker, softer players.
Could Rick do more? Sure I suspose. But he's not the reason we have fallen so far defensively. We're short. We're "white". We can't jump over a pencil. We have no defensive captain. Little shotblocking. And our remaining "core" players have always set terrible examples for hustle and defense. Rick has PROVEN he can coach a very good defensive team if you give him good defensive personnel (not even great personnel -- that 02-03 team had good deffenders, but apart from Doug and maybe Keon (maybe), no superstuds). The people who haven't proven they can play any defense are the players themselves. They've never been good defenders ANYWHERE. Larry Brown, Gregg Popovich, Pat Riley etc. etc. -- they never coach the players we have here. They trade them to get people who actually understand defense.
Last edited:
I know this saying didn't originate from your mouth, but as a science teacher, I would like to express my deep and bitter hatred for that phrase.
That said, I'm with you. I hate the argument that the 02-03 year shows that Adelman can teach defense. So, to quote another old saying, "even a broken clock is correct twice a day." Our defense sucks most of the time, but every once in awhile it can APPEAR effective. Besides, 1 decent defensive season out of 7 is not exactly a statistic you want to quote to claim that the Kings can play good defense. When an airline is on time on 1 out of every 7 flights, do you comfort yourself with the idea that they are "capable" of being on time?
I also agree with Brick, though. We are in need of defensive-minded players more than we are in need of a coaching change. Certainly not ALL of the good defensive teams in the NBA are led by great defensive coaches.
That said, I'm with you. I hate the argument that the 02-03 year shows that Adelman can teach defense. So, to quote another old saying, "even a broken clock is correct twice a day." Our defense sucks most of the time, but every once in awhile it can APPEAR effective. Besides, 1 decent defensive season out of 7 is not exactly a statistic you want to quote to claim that the Kings can play good defense. When an airline is on time on 1 out of every 7 flights, do you comfort yourself with the idea that they are "capable" of being on time?
I also agree with Brick, though. We are in need of defensive-minded players more than we are in need of a coaching change. Certainly not ALL of the good defensive teams in the NBA are led by great defensive coaches.
Last edited:
I think that we can be contenders with Bibby, Miller, and Peja as our main guys. We have to look at this year as the beginning stages of the "new Kings." There was NO WAY we were going to win it all this year. You cannot change 3 of our main players (Vlade, Doug, and Webber) with 2 being mid-season trades, and realistically believe that you have a shot. Throw in the injuries that we are prone to have, and it becomes next to impossible.
We hace a strong group. We need to make trades with the other players to improve our defense. Bibby, Peja, and Miller are capable of playing better defense. They just have to make a stronger effort to do so.
With those 3 guys, better role players, and actual practice time together, the team can and will be contenders within the next 2 seasons. If we get rid of 2 or more of them, it will take us at least 3 seasons to be legit again.
It all depends on the Maloof's wallet and Petrie's vision and skill. As a King's fan, we have all gotten used to saying, "Let's wait and see what happens next season." That is assuming, of course, that there is a next season.
We hace a strong group. We need to make trades with the other players to improve our defense. Bibby, Peja, and Miller are capable of playing better defense. They just have to make a stronger effort to do so.
With those 3 guys, better role players, and actual practice time together, the team can and will be contenders within the next 2 seasons. If we get rid of 2 or more of them, it will take us at least 3 seasons to be legit again.
It all depends on the Maloof's wallet and Petrie's vision and skill. As a King's fan, we have all gotten used to saying, "Let's wait and see what happens next season." That is assuming, of course, that there is a next season.
How does one go about doing that, even if one was so inclined? You can't go out and SIGN someone for big bucks because of the cap. Besides which, the emphasis the last several years has been trimming the pay roll, so even if the league threw the cap and the CBA out the window tomorrow, how much money would the Maloofs be willing to part with anyway?
Should i bring up Ron Artest now? After all we are talking about defense. Together with a rebounding, defensive PF I think All could be well in Sacto. Corlis, Kenny, Mobley are my 3 picks to leave. Especially if we get Matt Barnes back to back up Peja. Not to mention with Ron he could play the 3 if need be and let evan or barnes start the 2 or however anyway. Ron, Mo, Matt, Peja, and Kevin makes for a fine 2 and 3 spot. We got a pg and a C all we need is that all important PF. Like i said defensive and rebounds like hell. 14 pts per game would be nice as well.
Brick I have jumped on the Kwame Brown bandwagon with you. How well does he defend?
Brick I have jumped on the Kwame Brown bandwagon with you. How well does he defend?
I would love to have Artest but why exactly would Indiana trade him unless they are getting better with the trade??????
They have a defensively oriented coach and the last thing he would want is a undersized SG who isn't a very good defender.
I don't see Indiana trading Artest, ecpesially considering that they have now realised how important he is to them.
They have a defensively oriented coach and the last thing he would want is a undersized SG who isn't a very good defender.
I don't see Indiana trading Artest, ecpesially considering that they have now realised how important he is to them.
Gonna stick my neck out on this one, may wind up being my last post ;P
I find it offensive to use the term "white" in reference to players with poor athleticism. It's a racial slur. Please don't make any excuses about how it's "fair" because of white history, or that it's "just a saying" because everyone says it. Racial typecasting is a poison no matter where it's directed. It's so insidious and tenacious that I think a certain sensitivity is required. I don't belive that Brick meant it in a racially negative way. But it leaves a stain nevertheless.
Consider this: If a person can imagine being able to add numbers, we must also consider subtracting them as well. Same with multiplication and division. You cannot have one without the other. Darkness is defined as the absence of light, etc.
If we can imagine that blacks as a group are superior in some way due to their ethnicity, we also bring along the thinking that blacks can be worse at something due to the same factors. This is a Pandora's box of horrors. It's just another obstacle to the real goal, which is judging each person as an individual, regardless of race.
(steps down off soap box) I don't mean to offend, and I am not really upset. Just wanted to get it off my chest, and maybe get a few people to think about it for a moment.
I find it offensive to use the term "white" in reference to players with poor athleticism. It's a racial slur. Please don't make any excuses about how it's "fair" because of white history, or that it's "just a saying" because everyone says it. Racial typecasting is a poison no matter where it's directed. It's so insidious and tenacious that I think a certain sensitivity is required. I don't belive that Brick meant it in a racially negative way. But it leaves a stain nevertheless.
Consider this: If a person can imagine being able to add numbers, we must also consider subtracting them as well. Same with multiplication and division. You cannot have one without the other. Darkness is defined as the absence of light, etc.
If we can imagine that blacks as a group are superior in some way due to their ethnicity, we also bring along the thinking that blacks can be worse at something due to the same factors. This is a Pandora's box of horrors. It's just another obstacle to the real goal, which is judging each person as an individual, regardless of race.
(steps down off soap box) I don't mean to offend, and I am not really upset. Just wanted to get it off my chest, and maybe get a few people to think about it for a moment.
