More Reasonable Preseason Rankings
- Thread starter tbear03
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uolj
Starter
vladetomiller said:
Punching a teammate is not different from attempting to motivate teammates to do better?!?Somehow I think Garnett was not attempting to make his team better with his conduct, and while Webber might not have succeeded, it is clear he was trying to look out for the team. Kings fan or not, that distinction should be obvious.
Excuse me?vladetomiller said:
As uolj has pointed out, there's a BIG difference between words and physical violence. Just as I thought there was no excuse for what Latrell Sprewell did in Golden State, there is no excuse for KG resorting to an attack on a rookie. Some things you just don't do...
harbingerofdoom
Prospect
let me get this straight, its wrong to take into account anything that has happend in the past as that is clearly living in the past... but to make your point about the kings being to high at 5, you point to the past.....
uhhh.... k....
uhhh.... k....
vladetomiller
Bench
Maybe i should take a list of things that you feel are things you just dont do, cos i know there will be a time when it will come around. People here were talking about drugs and how bad it was and the blazers were a laughing stock here, we all know how that ended. Its ok to have a stand, but we just cant keep changing it based on which team's player does that.VF21 said:
Again i think all this has no reference to the actual topic, i said that the wolves were a better team cos they have KG and your reply was pointing to the rookie incident. I suppose many nba players have done that to rookies, recent incident being the rookies in some (bobcats is it ) team were bad mouthing the coaches, and were taken down by the seniors (armstrong).
When i am on a kings board i can always point out to webber's history with lots of different things to say that the team wont go far, lakers i can point out odom and kobe, and on and on for every team. But those are things that dont matter much on the court, whether odom did drugs two years ago, whether webb was suspended last year for drugs and perjury or kobe was going through a legal battle for cheating, or kg roughed up a rookie. All that matters is how well they play on the court and KG ranks up high in the best player category
vladetomiller
Bench
Bricklayer said:Oddly this may shock you, since it appears that you are in favor of developing insto-amnesia with the start of each new season, but last year was the FIRST year we EVER had a quality starter to step in in place of Webber -- we had exactly one year where we had more than 8 guys who played regularly. Strangely enough, in previous seasons when the best we had was Indiana's 12th man (Pollard) or our own 11th/12th man Fundy, who isn't even in the league anymore, we somehow survived. Tag and Songaila are at least as much depth as Pollard and Fundy were. In fact we've survived injuries to just about ever major player on the team and just kept on winning.
We won't win a title with people hurt in the playoffs, but this team has proven repeatedly that the talent is so deep that its hardly going to fall apart when somebody goes down for a while during the season. But I know that's all in the past, and of course the past means nothing, and the Bobcats have as good a chance to win the title this year as the Pistons.
Yes, think we will have to agree to disagree.
P.S. If we can't find anybody who can duplicate Peeler's hefty 5.7ppg average last year, you are right, we will be in trouble.
Its not that simple, peeler was able to spread the floor with his three point shooting and didnt he get a few wins for the kings with his deadly shooting and keeping them in the game. Now you will have your rookies taking those shots and offcourse defense is not that big a deal for the kings i suppose
While you are quick to dismiss pollards contribution (which is apparent from the way you are dismissing vlades ) you also need to understand the baggage that tag brings along. Very poor free throw shooter, brick hands and not a great court vision, which your big men had in the past seasons and opened up the floor. While you refer to the other things for the past maybe you should also look up what the other players have done.
I see this years kings team having a big dropoff from last years and i have my own reasons the same way you have yours
For the record, you said KG was the best player on the planet. My response was:vladetomiller said:
You brought Webber into the discussion, which wasn't relevant.
My whole point was that I could not call ANYONE the best player on the planet if he physically attacked a rookie.
You, again, brought Webber into it and it still wasn't relevant.
Sorry, but to me the best player on the planet RIGHT NOW would be, most likely, Tim Duncan. That's because my definition of "best player" would include things like sportsmanship.
If you want to bring Webber into it again, feel free to do so but it still won't be relevant.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Let's see, poor free throw shooter, brick hands, not great court vision... Excuse me, did you ever watch Pollard play? Because you just described him. There was a lot to recommend about him as an energizer off the bench, but he was NOT at any point even remotely a skill player.vladetomiller said:Its not that simple, peeler was able to spread the floor with his three point shooting and didnt he get a few wins for the kings with his deadly shooting and keeping them in the game. Now you will have your rookies taking those shots and offcourse defense is not that big a deal for the kings i suppose
While you are quick to dismiss pollards contribution (which is apparent from the way you are dismissing vlades ) you also need to understand the baggage that tag brings along. Very poor free throw shooter, brick hands and not a great court vision, which your big men had in the past seasons and opened up the floor. While you refer to the other things for the past maybe you should also look up what the other players have done.
I see this years kings team having a big dropoff from last years and i have my own reasons the same way you have yours
You're going to have a real hard time finding an argument how this player:
17.6min 4.9pts (.501, --, .710) 5.1rebs 0.5ast 0.6stl 0.8blk 0.7TO 2.4FL (Pollard career)
is significantly better than this player:
20.9min 5.1pts (.487, .125. .577) 5.9rebs 0.5ast 0.3stl 1.9blk 1.0TO 2.6FL (Tag career)
Now there may in fact come a game where the 2 free throws a game Ostertag shoots decides it, but I wouldn't hold your breath.
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harbingerofdoom
Prospect
sorry, should have quoted the posts that prompted that statement, but there were many & it would have been so long, no one would have read it.VF21 said:
just read back on the posts regarding certain people living in the past because they are pointing to things that happened with the kings over the past few years.
vladetomiller
Bench
Better fg%, better FT% (71 for a big man is good ) better steals, less turnover prone, less foul prone. Gives up a lot in the blocks. Thats pollard compared to tagBricklayer said:
And i dont understand the point
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Now you're just being ridiculous. Just admit the numbers look very similar and we can end this silliness. Big white thugs out of Kansas. Same role. Similar thug games. Non passers. Non shooters. Bad hands. Good rebounders. good defenders. EXCEPT that Ostertag can also be a dominant shot blocker when he's in the mood.vladetomiller said:
5
50pts
Guest
Cool yeh so where is Webber on that list? …just wondering…did the great sportsmanship he showed in blaming his teammates in front of the media after game 7 put him a close second?. I mean guys like him give the nba a good name.Mad D said:
Chris didn't BLAME anyone for anything. He challenged his teammates to give their all.50pts said:
It's a shame you obviously aren't watching tonight's game. Webber and Pedja are sitting next to each other, and for the second time in about three days, they're joking, having a good time, etc. All the animosity that some people were so anxious to convince the fans of is strangely absent.
You seem to suffer from the same disease as vladetomiller, in that you keep trying to bring Webber into the discussion simply so you can bash him.
Whatever.
mr. moustache
Bench
You've stopped playing dumb. I think. This is an improvement.50pts said:
You should be honored that you single-handedly convinced me to re-register, just to state my displeasure at your posts which do nothing but prance around the point you are clearly meaning to make. Patronizing.
If you're not playing dumb, you have my sincerest apologies, in more ways than one.
Go Kings.
5
50pts
Guest
what on earth are you on about? sorry i dont get what your trying to say.mr. moustache said:
mr. moustache
Bench
Precisely.50pts said:
5
50pts
Guest
sure its great that chris and peja sorted out their differences...i hope it can stay that way but to be honest as long as they play well i dont really care if they like each other.VF21 said:
Im am just interested on how you rank webber on that list as i think his comments were not a sign of good sportsmanship...allot of people would agree with me belive it or not.
is disagreeing with you a disease? am i a "basher" cause i find what chris did wrong? have you ever played a team sport...sportsmanship isn't just about how you treat your opponent but also how you treat your team members. If somthing goes wrong you look at your mistakes not others.
5
50pts
Guest
ok put it back on trackVF21 said:
Sorted out their differences? What differences are those exactly? The ones reported by certain media types but denied by everyone, including Adelman, Webber, Pedja, Petrie, the Maloofs, etc.? What? Are they all lying?
Chris Webber is well-liked by virtually every player in the league. They respect him and you'll find VERY FEW players with anything negative to say about him. Why? Because he plays and plays hard. All he said was that he is challenging himself and everyone else on the Kings to play hard, to push for the championship, to leave it all out there on the court.
I have repeated my statement three times now. My argument with vladetomiller was because he called KG the best player on the planet. I disagreed, because of KG's actions against one of his team's rookies during a scrimmmage. That's physical violence.
Chris Webber is well-liked by virtually every player in the league. They respect him and you'll find VERY FEW players with anything negative to say about him. Why? Because he plays and plays hard. All he said was that he is challenging himself and everyone else on the Kings to play hard, to push for the championship, to leave it all out there on the court.
I have repeated my statement three times now. My argument with vladetomiller was because he called KG the best player on the planet. I disagreed, because of KG's actions against one of his team's rookies during a scrimmmage. That's physical violence.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I think KG may be the best player on the planet. And he's also a hell of a leader. And he's also a bit of a punk. All of those things can coexist.
Jordan himself was known to be more than a bit of an alpha male during his playing days. Scream at, berate his teammates. Chunk you with a good elbow if you made him mad. Very difficult to coexist with. Didn't make him a great humanitarian, but didn't take away from his basketball abilities. May even have added to them -- it was that insane competitiveness that really separated him.
Jordan himself was known to be more than a bit of an alpha male during his playing days. Scream at, berate his teammates. Chunk you with a good elbow if you made him mad. Very difficult to coexist with. Didn't make him a great humanitarian, but didn't take away from his basketball abilities. May even have added to them -- it was that insane competitiveness that really separated him.
5
50pts
Guest
oh please Webber is liked by every player in the league now is he? how do you know that? do you have some "inside" information you could share with everyone or could you perhaps provide me with some quotes that suggest that is true?........see your doing just what you accuse your buddy VoisinVF21 said:
of doing...making stuff up.
Yeh i think what KG did was lame...but he gets away with everything...peeler incident?
Read what I write before you engage your fingers.
I said he is well-liked by virtually every player in the league. If you watch a lot of Kings games - and I watch nearly all of them every season - you see player after player, joking with Webber, seeking him out, etc. In addition, I have good friends who are lucky enough to attend home games and they say it's fun to see how many players seek Webber out when both teams are on the court before those games. Sure, there are undoubtedly players who don't get along with Webber, but I honestly can't name any off the top of my head. When he went to the All-Star game, he was part of the crux of players having a good time, joking, etc.
It's not "inside" information. I haven't made anything up.
I said he is well-liked by virtually every player in the league. If you watch a lot of Kings games - and I watch nearly all of them every season - you see player after player, joking with Webber, seeking him out, etc. In addition, I have good friends who are lucky enough to attend home games and they say it's fun to see how many players seek Webber out when both teams are on the court before those games. Sure, there are undoubtedly players who don't get along with Webber, but I honestly can't name any off the top of my head. When he went to the All-Star game, he was part of the crux of players having a good time, joking, etc.
It's not "inside" information. I haven't made anything up.
And, of course, you're entitled to your opinion. As we've discussed many times BC, you seem to respect the tough leader with a touch of bully. I prefer the Tim Duncan type who leads by skill and doesn't need to berate or bully his teammates.Bricklayer said:
Either way, I still find it abysmal that KG would resort to physicality against a rookie because he bested him during a practice game. And I still think what Latrell Sprewell did should have cost him his future in the league. We'll agree to disagree - but at least we're both being articulate about it.
5
50pts
Guest
ive seen chris webber talking to player and joking around on TV but what player doesnt? Many players joke around with KG doesn't mean he has good sportsmanship.VF21 said:
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Well...I have no idea where you got the "likes tough bully leaders" thing from. Indeed by now I would have thought my run ins with bully types over the years would have been well known. Get in MY face and...well...
But I think that's entirely beside the point. How we would respond doesn't matter. The point was (although a bit obscure) that leadership STYLE is irrelevant, as long as it gets results. KG is the unquestioned heart and soul of his team. Not only the best player, but also the inspirational leader. And they DO follow him. Hence he's a great leader regardless of whether you or I would respond to it. In fact MANY of the truly great players were intense taskmasters off the court -- just the great competitiveness spilling over I think.
Duncan is quieter. Intense perhaps. Has to be respected. Its a differnet style. Persoanlly I actually think the real leader of that team stalks the sidelines. But regardless, it works. So again, its beside the point. It might help you decide who's poster you buy and hang on your wall. But its not a really relevant consideration inw a "who's better" comparison. Both guys just get it done. I just happen to think KG gets it done in more ways, while Duncan is built better for playoff success. KG is more talented. Duncan has mroe rings.
But I think that's entirely beside the point. How we would respond doesn't matter. The point was (although a bit obscure) that leadership STYLE is irrelevant, as long as it gets results. KG is the unquestioned heart and soul of his team. Not only the best player, but also the inspirational leader. And they DO follow him. Hence he's a great leader regardless of whether you or I would respond to it. In fact MANY of the truly great players were intense taskmasters off the court -- just the great competitiveness spilling over I think.
Duncan is quieter. Intense perhaps. Has to be respected. Its a differnet style. Persoanlly I actually think the real leader of that team stalks the sidelines. But regardless, it works. So again, its beside the point. It might help you decide who's poster you buy and hang on your wall. But its not a really relevant consideration inw a "who's better" comparison. Both guys just get it done. I just happen to think KG gets it done in more ways, while Duncan is built better for playoff success. KG is more talented. Duncan has mroe rings.
Lamar_Odom
Bench
How is Duncan built better for playoff success? I thought he had a better team than KG, thus more success. If KG played for SA and Duncan in MN, KG just might have the rings.
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