Monday will be crazy and other news, rumors, etc.
- Thread starter VF21
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I know what you're trying to say, but what can Ballmer/Hansen sue the NBA for? I don't get where either of them are coming from. I have heard that since the recommendation a couple weeks ago that H/B are going to sue the NBA. I just don't know under what grounds they can actually sue them for. If anyone has at least a little bit of a case it would be the Maloofs because they would be the ones losing money, but I still don't think they have much of a case at all because that valuation is based on the team being mobile.. and around and around we go! It's like the chicken and the egg with this scenario.
As for the point that you were making in your post, the NBA can refuse a sale. That's the power they have, and that will hold up in any court. Every owner knows that there is a vote when changing ownership. Even the Maloofs. If the Seattle group is voted down then they are voted down, end of story. The Maloofs, and H/B were under the impression that the Kings were a moveable franchise (which it appears now that it's not) which is why the valuation stands at $625mil. Since any group that purchases the team will need to sign a 35 year lease with Sacramento and agree to the arena deal that we have so you think H/B would still pay as much as they are for the majority ownership? If so then so be it. Let H/B run the team in Sac for the next 35 years.
Also, I am under the impression that this whole "backup deal" came about because once the vote happens the main deal the Maloofs had with HBN will be voided because how it was originally set up. That last "raise in the price" was to sway the relocation vote. Once that's voted down the HBN deal goes away and therefore the backup deal falls into place with the Maloofs and HBN owning the team in Sac and trying to move the team next year or something. OR they could take the Vivek deal and just end this.
As for the point that you were making in your post, the NBA can refuse a sale. That's the power they have, and that will hold up in any court. Every owner knows that there is a vote when changing ownership. Even the Maloofs. If the Seattle group is voted down then they are voted down, end of story. The Maloofs, and H/B were under the impression that the Kings were a moveable franchise (which it appears now that it's not) which is why the valuation stands at $625mil. Since any group that purchases the team will need to sign a 35 year lease with Sacramento and agree to the arena deal that we have so you think H/B would still pay as much as they are for the majority ownership? If so then so be it. Let H/B run the team in Sac for the next 35 years.
Also, I am under the impression that this whole "backup deal" came about because once the vote happens the main deal the Maloofs had with HBN will be voided because how it was originally set up. That last "raise in the price" was to sway the relocation vote. Once that's voted down the HBN deal goes away and therefore the backup deal falls into place with the Maloofs and HBN owning the team in Sac and trying to move the team next year or something. OR they could take the Vivek deal and just end this.
There are no other teams available until 2017 at the earliest. Expansion is the only option for Seattle before a new politician comes around and everything starts over again.
Expansion is on the table I bet, owners are being extremely stubborn by negating it. There is downside risk for litigation, there is only upside for Kings being sold to Ranadive and expansion team in Seattle.
Expansion in Seattle is win-win-win for everyone.
So maybe its an anti-trust suit by the Maloofs with Ballmer money. Nevertheless, its in violation of the Sherman Act, and I think a reasonable argument could be made for price fixing, whether you agree or not agree, there is a case to be made here.
Its one thing to deny Hansen and Ballmer outright, there is nothing wrong with that. Its the fact that they are denying an offer then forcing another offer onto the owners. As bad as the Maloofs are, they still own the team, the NBA can't just strip it out of its hands.
Donald Sterling is a racist and a slumlord, does he serve the best interest of the league? Clippers were the worst run team in the league for 25 years, Sterling put barely a dime into that team during that period. Shinn was accused of kidnapping and sexually harassing a woman in Charlotte, which is why he wanted to get out of that city in the first place. If the NBA ever invoked such a clause to strip away an NBA team, it should have been to one of these two men, who are horrible human beings outside of being NBA owners. I just don't think the NBA actually has the legal power to force a team out of an owner's hands.
Its one thing to deny Hansen and Ballmer outright, there is nothing wrong with that. Its the fact that they are denying an offer then forcing another offer onto the owners. As bad as the Maloofs are, they still own the team, the NBA can't just strip it out of its hands.
Donald Sterling is a racist and a slumlord, does he serve the best interest of the league? Clippers were the worst run team in the league for 25 years, Sterling put barely a dime into that team during that period. Shinn was accused of kidnapping and sexually harassing a woman in Charlotte, which is why he wanted to get out of that city in the first place. If the NBA ever invoked such a clause to strip away an NBA team, it should have been to one of these two men, who are horrible human beings outside of being NBA owners. I just don't think the NBA actually has the legal power to force a team out of an owner's hands.
Have you read the Marquette Sports Law Review on the power of commissioners? I don't see it as thin at all..
Do you honestly think Stern hasn't thoroughly done all the necessary homework on the possibility of an anti-trust suit? The situation with the Maloofs is unique in the history of the NBA. We don't know the exact language of the NBA By-Laws or Constitution in regards to the powers ceded to Stern, but Marquette sure seems to feel he's virtually omnipotent.
I seriously doubt if there will be any talk of expansion at this point. Stern is not going to fold his hand because of Ballmer's bluster. Again, you'd have to believe that Stern doesn't have a winning hand in all this, and I don't see anything thus far to suggest that's true other than whatever happens to be coming from the Seattle camp at any given point in time.
Again, I'll be honest. More and more, there is a feeling that Ballmer does not deserve a team and that bully tactics are not going to be successful.
What do you think is going to happen tomorrow? Do you think the teleconference call is for Stern to tell the BoG they'd better back off and accede to Ballmer's wishes. Oh hell no. My best guess is that Stern is making it clear that nobody - the Maloofs, Ballmer, etc. - is going to hold the NBA up to any further ridicule.
You continue to hit the same points, which I guess I would also do if that was all I had left. But at this point, I would also face the possibility that my best chance to see the NBA back in Seattle may have just been flushed away because of the attitude and tactics of your potential ownership group AND the slimes they chose to do business with. You lie down with dogs and you get up with fleas.
Do you honestly think Stern hasn't thoroughly done all the necessary homework on the possibility of an anti-trust suit? The situation with the Maloofs is unique in the history of the NBA. We don't know the exact language of the NBA By-Laws or Constitution in regards to the powers ceded to Stern, but Marquette sure seems to feel he's virtually omnipotent.
I seriously doubt if there will be any talk of expansion at this point. Stern is not going to fold his hand because of Ballmer's bluster. Again, you'd have to believe that Stern doesn't have a winning hand in all this, and I don't see anything thus far to suggest that's true other than whatever happens to be coming from the Seattle camp at any given point in time.
Again, I'll be honest. More and more, there is a feeling that Ballmer does not deserve a team and that bully tactics are not going to be successful.
What do you think is going to happen tomorrow? Do you think the teleconference call is for Stern to tell the BoG they'd better back off and accede to Ballmer's wishes. Oh hell no. My best guess is that Stern is making it clear that nobody - the Maloofs, Ballmer, etc. - is going to hold the NBA up to any further ridicule.
You continue to hit the same points, which I guess I would also do if that was all I had left. But at this point, I would also face the possibility that my best chance to see the NBA back in Seattle may have just been flushed away because of the attitude and tactics of your potential ownership group AND the slimes they chose to do business with. You lie down with dogs and you get up with fleas.
Two points on this. First, the Maloofs already agreed to sell. They submitted a signed sales agreement to the league. Second, the offer was negotiated between two parties: it's just that it was HBN and the Maloofs, not Ranadivé and the Maloofs.
So in the end, if the league has to go so far as to seize the Kings, they're going to pay fair market value for it. They're not going to simply take it away and leave the Maloofs with nothing. Clearly they have the ability to do this. It would appear that this was done in the Shinn situation, and in so far as the league has in the past threatened contraction, they would need to use such a power for that purpose as well. Nobody seemed to doubt at the time that the league threatened contraction that they had the ability to do it. Sure, everybody thought it was an empty threat, but not because the NBA couldn't pull it off. Rather because it wasn't really in the NBA's interest to do it.
Oh, and fair market value has been established: $525M. That was the result of the signed and submitted HBN/Maloof agreement. So, in the event that the league seizes the Kings for (65% of) $525M and then turns around and sells it to the Ranadivé group, the Maloofs don't really have a case for antitrust. They submitted to the league an agreement to sell their franchise at a value that was determined on the open market. The NBA, for its own reasons (which have been hashed out again and again, no need to repeat), prefers to sell the franchise to a different set of owners. But the outcome is exactly what they asked for - a sale at $525M. So what standing do they have for anti-trust? Probably none.
So in the end, if the league has to go so far as to seize the Kings, they're going to pay fair market value for it. They're not going to simply take it away and leave the Maloofs with nothing. Clearly they have the ability to do this. It would appear that this was done in the Shinn situation, and in so far as the league has in the past threatened contraction, they would need to use such a power for that purpose as well. Nobody seemed to doubt at the time that the league threatened contraction that they had the ability to do it. Sure, everybody thought it was an empty threat, but not because the NBA couldn't pull it off. Rather because it wasn't really in the NBA's interest to do it.
Oh, and fair market value has been established: $525M. That was the result of the signed and submitted HBN/Maloof agreement. So, in the event that the league seizes the Kings for (65% of) $525M and then turns around and sells it to the Ranadivé group, the Maloofs don't really have a case for antitrust. They submitted to the league an agreement to sell their franchise at a value that was determined on the open market. The NBA, for its own reasons (which have been hashed out again and again, no need to repeat), prefers to sell the franchise to a different set of owners. But the outcome is exactly what they asked for - a sale at $525M. So what standing do they have for anti-trust? Probably none.
Any decision to vote against relocation and/or sale is going to be based on protocol and within the law.
What happens after any vote is still uncertain. Assuming it goes in Sacramento's favour, it is unknown how the Maloofs and HB will respond. Stern may have to act to encourage Maloof compliance. Any actions he takes will again be based on his own political abilities and have a strong legal rationale.
This argument 'give us a basketball team or we will sue' is clutching at straws.
What happens after any vote is still uncertain. Assuming it goes in Sacramento's favour, it is unknown how the Maloofs and HB will respond. Stern may have to act to encourage Maloof compliance. Any actions he takes will again be based on his own political abilities and have a strong legal rationale.
This argument 'give us a basketball team or we will sue' is clutching at straws.
I just read your other thread and you're making the same arguments over and over again.
Expansion in Seattle is NOT a win-win. At this point, it is little more than Stern and the NBA rolling over and playing dead in the face of the Great and Terrible Ballmer.
Why won't you acknowledge that this is nothing more than extortion at this point? Ballmer didn't reach out to the NBA and agree to negate the deal with the Maloofs. Ballmer and his cronies threw temper tantrums and threatened the NBA, trying hard to destroy Sacramento in the process. That's not acceptable where I come from. He hasn't earned any concessions from the NBA or any of the owners. He's been a bully and a spoiled brat, and from what I've gleaned from various articles, that's pretty much his regular way to do business.
I repeat. Expansion in Seattle at this point is not a win-win. And I'm guessing it's not even going to be on the table and it will be Seattle and Ballmer's fault.
Expansion in Seattle is NOT a win-win. At this point, it is little more than Stern and the NBA rolling over and playing dead in the face of the Great and Terrible Ballmer.
Why won't you acknowledge that this is nothing more than extortion at this point? Ballmer didn't reach out to the NBA and agree to negate the deal with the Maloofs. Ballmer and his cronies threw temper tantrums and threatened the NBA, trying hard to destroy Sacramento in the process. That's not acceptable where I come from. He hasn't earned any concessions from the NBA or any of the owners. He's been a bully and a spoiled brat, and from what I've gleaned from various articles, that's pretty much his regular way to do business.
I repeat. Expansion in Seattle at this point is not a win-win. And I'm guessing it's not even going to be on the table and it will be Seattle and Ballmer's fault.
That is where there is the chicken and the egg scenario is. The original bid PLUS the current raise on the original bid/agreement was based on the team MOVING. If the team isn't moving then how are the Maloofs losing money? Are they suing on the basis that the actual vote is wrongly denying them of money? Hell, Ellison could say he would buy the team for a billion but the Kings would have to move to San Jose. That won't hold up in any court or Ellison would probably own 5 NBA teams all in San Jose. This is all theoretical money people are throwing out there right now. Until we know whether or not HBN would pay the price at a $625mil valuation to KEEP the team in Sac the Maloofs really don't have a case.
If Hansen and Ballmer are really intent on having the Kings let them pay at the $625 mil valuation and sign a lease in Sacramento for 35 years and agree to our arena deal. Do you still think they would pay that amount for a team they cannot move to Seattle? If Stern came out and said "sure, take the team for that price, but it stays in Sacramento" do you think HBN would take it? If so then Bravo. Kings BBall for 35 more years and owners (while I don't like them) have deep pockets.
If Hansen and Ballmer are really intent on having the Kings let them pay at the $625 mil valuation and sign a lease in Sacramento for 35 years and agree to our arena deal. Do you still think they would pay that amount for a team they cannot move to Seattle? If Stern came out and said "sure, take the team for that price, but it stays in Sacramento" do you think HBN would take it? If so then Bravo. Kings BBall for 35 more years and owners (while I don't like them) have deep pockets.
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Nothing But Attorneys.
if the league's course of action is to expedite the sale of the kings to the sacramento group at all costs, then they will have conceived of every possible legal threat presented by the chain reaction that follows. i'm not concerned in the least, with respect to sacramento's place in all of this. as for seattle, i could give a **** what happens to hansen/ballmer. i do hope the nba returns to seattle at some point, but, as in '08, they're making it harder for the league to root for them...
if the league's course of action is to expedite the sale of the kings to the sacramento group at all costs, then they will have conceived of every possible legal threat presented by the chain reaction that follows. i'm not concerned in the least, with respect to sacramento's place in all of this. as for seattle, i could give a **** what happens to hansen/ballmer. i do hope the nba returns to seattle at some point, but, as in '08, they're making it harder for the league to root for them...
This Seattle poster seems like a good dude. Odds favor it doesn’t get there. But Sonics fans are warming to the position that Ballmer can just structure his deal and take other steps that force the owners to fold based upon the possibility of an anti-trust suit.
That’s not going to happen.
I’m willing to bet the owners won’t roll over and die. If Larry Ellison thought that was viable, he’d have a team in San Jose right now.
The Maloofs stewardship is so bad that it gives the league a viable defense. Probably a good defense because it’s very easy for a jury to understand.
They aren’t getting the Kings. If they make it seem like they are really going to hold the team and try to sue, the league really might just reclaim the team with the Maloofs getting the Sacramento money of course. There is a reason it will be in escrow this week.
That’s not going to happen.
I’m willing to bet the owners won’t roll over and die. If Larry Ellison thought that was viable, he’d have a team in San Jose right now.
The Maloofs stewardship is so bad that it gives the league a viable defense. Probably a good defense because it’s very easy for a jury to understand.
They aren’t getting the Kings. If they make it seem like they are really going to hold the team and try to sue, the league really might just reclaim the team with the Maloofs getting the Sacramento money of course. There is a reason it will be in escrow this week.
I would point out that it has been repeated by several in the League (Stern, Arison, etc.) that expansion WILL NOT be considered until after the next TV contract is worked out. That should have been a hint to those up in Seattle that they might have a chance at an expansion team at that time (in other words, be patient). This seems to have been completely lost on the H/B group, who have decided they want is now, now, now. They are reminding me of a little kid at Wal-Mart screaming at his parents that he wants a toy and won't stop no matter how many times they tell him "NO!" I don't see Stern or the BOG being the parent that finally gives in just to shut the kid up.
This!!
After all that has transpired I don't understand how some posters on this forum can hope we keep our team but still think Seattle deserves to get an expansion team. Seattle is trying to steal your wife/girlfriend! I'm going to do everything I can to keep you from stealing my girlfriend but, oh sucks, I hope you get your own girlfriend then we'll both be happy. Right. How about, I want to kill you and I hope you fall of the face of the earth you scum sucking piece of s***. If the people representing Seattle think that this is the righteous way to procure an NBA team, then in my opinion, they deserve nothing, ever.
After all that has transpired I don't understand how some posters on this forum can hope we keep our team but still think Seattle deserves to get an expansion team. Seattle is trying to steal your wife/girlfriend! I'm going to do everything I can to keep you from stealing my girlfriend but, oh sucks, I hope you get your own girlfriend then we'll both be happy. Right. How about, I want to kill you and I hope you fall of the face of the earth you scum sucking piece of s***. If the people representing Seattle think that this is the righteous way to procure an NBA team, then in my opinion, they deserve nothing, ever.
It finally appears at least one person in Seattle gets it:
"...Sacramento is being sold out by vindictive owners rather than politicians. That is the main difference here. Most NBA owners refuse to sale to someone who will move the team because they usually care about their bond with that city. Even Howard Schultz fits in this category because he truly did all he could really do by refusing to sale to the guy guaranteed to move and having a clause that the guy he sold to put in a good faith effort to build an arena in Seattle. The Maloofs make Howard Schultz look like a hero. They are doing the opposite of what owners usually do. They are refusing to sale to anyone who WILL keep the team in Sacramento. That is *** backwards man. Our situation was NOT worse than that..."
"...Sacramento is being sold out by vindictive owners rather than politicians. That is the main difference here. Most NBA owners refuse to sale to someone who will move the team because they usually care about their bond with that city. Even Howard Schultz fits in this category because he truly did all he could really do by refusing to sale to the guy guaranteed to move and having a clause that the guy he sold to put in a good faith effort to build an arena in Seattle. The Maloofs make Howard Schultz look like a hero. They are doing the opposite of what owners usually do. They are refusing to sale to anyone who WILL keep the team in Sacramento. That is *** backwards man. Our situation was NOT worse than that..."
From Twitter:
Carmichael Dave @CarmichaelDave 18m
Is anyone else as pumped and excited as I am for this week? Before the committee vote, I was nervous. Now? Ready for Sac to bring it home.
Carmichael Dave @CarmichaelDave 16m
Whether tomorrow, Tues or Wed, all the hard work and patience by Vivek and co will pay off. All the pain will become pure joy. Get ready!!
Carmichael Dave @CarmichaelDave 12m
Two weeks ago, it was "PLEASEPLEASEHOPEHOPE". Now it's like knowing without all the silly worrying. Knowing that good stuff is coming.
Carmichael Dave @CarmichaelDave 12m
Seriously. Don't worry about Maloofs, 700 scrillion dollar bids,etc. Just WAIT and watch this thing unfold. Watch the play happen.So cool.
Carmichael Dave @CarmichaelDave 10m
Yet another way to put it- It's like having a HUGE exam in college, but you know EVERY INCH of the material. You KNOW you're getting an A+.
Carmichael Dave @CarmichaelDave 18m
Is anyone else as pumped and excited as I am for this week? Before the committee vote, I was nervous. Now? Ready for Sac to bring it home.
Carmichael Dave @CarmichaelDave 16m
Whether tomorrow, Tues or Wed, all the hard work and patience by Vivek and co will pay off. All the pain will become pure joy. Get ready!!
Carmichael Dave @CarmichaelDave 12m
Two weeks ago, it was "PLEASEPLEASEHOPEHOPE". Now it's like knowing without all the silly worrying. Knowing that good stuff is coming.
Carmichael Dave @CarmichaelDave 12m
Seriously. Don't worry about Maloofs, 700 scrillion dollar bids,etc. Just WAIT and watch this thing unfold. Watch the play happen.So cool.
Carmichael Dave @CarmichaelDave 10m
Yet another way to put it- It's like having a HUGE exam in college, but you know EVERY INCH of the material. You KNOW you're getting an A+.
If I didn't hate the Maloofs enough, the more I think of this back up deal where HBN would own a slice and the Maloofs would maintain control... isn't it predicated on the team staying in Sacramento and relo being denied? Meaning these idiots actively wish to see a Clay Bennett situation play out in Sacramento for a few tens of millions more than selling to Vivek (where they would lead it).. evil
I kinda want to see this go to end game. Watching Georgie in a court room screaming "You can't handle truth", while the other brothers are passing out samples of their dessert favored vodka, wondering why others won't invest into such a great idea and led by such a business savy group such as their own.
Still nervous, because nothing is truly official. I know it'll all work out in our favor (I truly believe that) but of course waaaaaay down in there somewhere, is a bit of uncertainty/worry, just because we've seen it all as Kings fans. We've been through nothing but mess for years now. Anyway... Carmichael Dave is tweeting right now, and I can't stop smiling. I'll probably sleep like a baby now. Just needed to see that to ease my mind a bit, and SNAP me back into reality. 