jimbodan
Bench
Since when has that stopped Petrie before? He almost always picks players like Batum regardless of who we have and what we need.
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- Thread starter Jespher
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Since when has that stopped Petrie before? He almost always picks players like Batum regardless of who we have and what we need.
SacKings7
Starter
...No. As good as he's been in college, I just don't see him being a good player in the NBA. At best, I see him on the same level as Linas Kleiza
S
sactownfan
Guest
Linas Kleiza is a good player. kinda like a more physical Peja. He can do alot of things for being a 3. Hansborogh is more like a more gifted Mark Madson.
Gary
All-Star
Where we are picking might have something to do with it. If Batum dropped to about 19th or something and we were picking there (while having all the SG/SFs we have now) I would still take him.. But if there is any chance to fill a desperate need (AHEM PF) at #11-#12-#13 where we are picking then I say go for it. I wouldn't want to pick Batum, and have him rot on the bench.
If we had taken Al Thorton last draft I doubt he would have got any PT with us this season, and so far he has been the surprise of the draft.
SacKings7
Starter
Even so. You look for stars in the lottery. Linas Kleiza is no star
bajaden
Hall of Famer
He looked like one against us...
Dime Dropper
All-Star
100% agree.
Me too, but he's supposed to be gone at #9, they're saying now. Everybody I've expressed any interest in has drifted out of reach. :-/
Does anyone really think that Geoff would pick someone expected to go in the 20s at #12? So many are high on Arthur that I have to think about it, and Robin Lopez seems like another reasonable fit in terms of team need... but Petrie rarely picks anyone we need, and I'm not sure whether he'll think we're getting value for our pick if we go for one of those guys at 12. Unless we see a lot of change in the anticipated draft order, I'm thinking he may go with the "safe" Collison, and leave bigs for the second round (if at all).
Come on, Gary. Let's be realistic here.
Kevin Love for President 2024!
We've got a Constitution to follow, after all.
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sactownfan
Guest
Kevin Love is horrible. Out of shape, poor conditioning, slow, no hops, perfect for this team i guess..... just kidding Kevin Love will never make it in the pros
Gary
All-Star
Can I buy that crystal ball you have? I need to pick some numbers for tomorrows drawing
On a serious note.. Nobody knows who will and wont make it. Love has the passing ability of a PG, and the rebounding ability/strength to play PF. I am not going to guarantee he will succeed but I will say the odds on him succeeding over a "project/raw player" are at least 5 to 1. Sometimes you have to look past whether or not someone can jump high, and make a pretty dunk. Yo are also forgetting about his BBall IQ. That means a lot when it comes to chemistry, and making others around you better.
Just take a look at the Kings a few years back when Webber was injured. Miller, Peja, Vlade had to be the most un-athletic front lines ever, but they were doing fine in the wins column. I used to be like so many others who wanted someone that can jump through the roof, but realized that won't get you anywhere if they can't co-exist with the other members of the team or didn't know the fundamentals of the game. I would take that Miller/Vlade/Peja team (of a few years back) over 95% of the starting front courts out there today.
Gary
All-Star
But Arthur is teh champions!!!!!!
So is Cole Aldrich but I don't want him playing center for the Kings
OK.. ok.. ok.. maybe in a couple years I will though.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
Can I buy that crystal ball you have? I need to pick some numbers for tomorrows drawing
On a serious note.. Nobody knows who will and wont make it. Love has the passing ability of a PG, and the rebounding ability/strength to play PF. I am not going to guarantee he will succeed but I will say the odds on him succeeding over a "project/raw player" are at least 5 to 1. Sometimes you have to look past whether or not someone can jump high, and make a pretty dunk. Yo are also forgetting about his BBall IQ. That means a lot when it comes to chemistry, and making others around you better.
Just take a look at the Kings a few years back when Webber was injured. Miller, Peja, Vlade had to be the most un-athletic front lines ever, but they were doing fine in the wins column. I used to be like so many others who wanted someone that can jump through the roof, but realized that won't get you anywhere if they can't co-exist with the other members of the team or didn't know the fundamentals of the game. I would take that Miller/Vlade/Peja team (of a few years back) over 95% of the starting front courts out there today.
Succeeding in what way? He probably has a lower basement than the raw athletic guys, but I'd say his ceiling is nothing more than a role playing starter. The idea behind a high ceiling long/athletic guy is that he has a higher ceiling because skills can be learned and worked on, Love's lack of length can't be improve, and his atlheticism can only be improved slightly.
Gary
All-Star
Again, you have no idea what his ceiling is until he has played in the NBA.
One thing that's true though is that he is a fundamentally sound, and can pass the ball like a PG. He has post moves, and can step out and hit a jump shot. He was part of the 4th ranked D in the NCAA D1 (which means that he is not a total liability as long as there is team defense going on, but yes I know 1 on 1 he isn't very good).
Do you think Defense can be worked on, or do you need to be long and athletic to succeed?
The fact of the matter is that D1 studs succeed more then the D1 projects... If you are trying to build on a .450-.500 club you go for the guy that will fit in, and get you over that hump, not the guy that has a lesser chance to succeed or that might be good 4 years down the road. At least in my world you don't
You are a project man, and I am a fundamental man. I think I fell in love with it watching Vlade/Peja/Webber playing. If we have a chance of getting a front court in Hawes/Love that can pass like Vlade/Webber I will be happy. I love the offense going though a big in the high post while the SG cuts, and the PG shoots off of a screen.
Dime Dropper
All-Star
First of all, no team would trade a top 5 pick for Artest and 12. Not one. Secondly, Rose isn't going to be there unless you have the 1st or 2nd pick. He could easily go number one depending on who gets to pick there.
=LarryLegend=
Starter
Kings will draft Nicholas Batum! I have been saying this since my thread about the 2008 draft. this guy has petrie writing all over it! if he is there at 12 its a no brainer for geoff. even with artest, garcia, salmons and douby.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
Again, you have no idea what his ceiling is until he has played in the NBA.
One thing that's true though is that he is a fundamentally sound, and can pass the ball like a PG. He has post moves, and can step out and hit a jump shot. He was part of the 4th ranked D in the NCAA D1 (which means that he is not a total liability as long as there is team defense going on, but yes I know 1 on 1 he isn't very good).
Do you think Defense can be worked on, or do you need to be long and athletic to succeed?
The fact of the matter is that D1 studs succeed more then the D1 projects... If you are trying to build on a .450-.500 club you go for the guy that will fit in, and get you over that hump, not the guy that has a lesser chance to succeed or that might be good 4 years down the road. At least in my world you don't
You are a project man, and I am a fundamental man. I think I fell in love with it watching Vlade/Peja/Webber playing. If we have a chance of getting a front court in Hawes/Love that can pass like Vlade/Webber I will be happy. I love the offense going though a big in the high post while the SG cuts, and the PG shoots off of a screen.
That's a ridiculous claim, if that were true then there would be no point in scouting players, they'd all pick the players with the best college numbers and we all know that would be an enormous disaster. Of course someone can have an idea of a player's ceiling by taking into account all the positives and negatives of their game and comparing it against tools of other successful players in the league.
Well the team D is going to change a lot once he's in the NBA too, it's not just going to be 1 on 1 play that changes. You can't seem to grasp the concept that the NBA is a much different game than college. In the NBA the majority of the top players are long and/or athletic along with very skilled.
Um, proof? How much is JJ Redick doing for the magic?
I don't fall in line with any one category, I consider all positives and negatives. However in today's game, the skilled unathletic guys don't have much of a dominant place. You can say he's as skilled as Brad Miller, but then again he's also shorter than Brad Miller and will have to play against much more athletic players at the 4 than Miller does at the 5.
Sure the style is fun, but post-knee injury Webber was not a championship team, it simply wasn't. And Love doesn't have the length and reach of Webber. I really don't care what style they play with as long as it wins, that's what I care about.
=LarryLegend=
Starter
Another guy is Shane Battier. Excellent college player and a great team guy but never more than a role player in the NBA
Gary
All-Star
Ok.. You just woke me up lol... Now you've done it
Since we are talking 2006 I will list all the "raw/projects"
Tyrus Thomas? Still has not found his place on a crappy Bulls team althogh he's starting now!
Patrick O'Bryant? hah! what the hell were the Warriors thinking.
Saer Sene? I will give ya three fiddy for him.
Cedric Simmons? Will be out of the league in one more year.
Hilton Armstrong? Another one of those bleh type players.. Didn't I guarantee him a bust in 2006? HAH!
Josh Boone? Doing OK, but nothing special.
Those were all the first round project bigs. So far Josh Boone has come the closest to succeeding, with Tyrus Thomas a close second. Still though, Tyrus Thomas has had 5 starts in a row and is only averaging just over 10ppg 6rpg less than a block, and just over an assist. Hardly spectacular.
Now for the first round "stud" BIG college/international players who had good all around games..
LaMarcus Adridge? Starting PF for the improved Trailblazers 17ppg 7rpg 1bpg in his first year starting.
Shelden Williams? BUUUUUUUUST so far.
Andrea Bargnani? I still don't like the guy, but Toronto seems to. He has done well for himself starting C for the improved Raptors.
So right now my BIG "studs" are 66.6% success rate so far, and the project/raw players are a 0% success rate. MAYBE 20% if you say Boone is a success.
gary re: Hilton Armstrong said:
Ok, so I left out a Saer Sene quote saying that if we take a project it might as well be him lol.. So anyhow, How's Hilton doing?
The guy I said that to doesn't post here anymore. 
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Vlade4GM
All-Star
Ok.. You just woke me up lol... Now you've done it
Since we are talking 2006 I will list all the "raw/projects"
Tyrus Thomas? Still has not found his place on a crappy Bulls team althogh he's starting now!
Patrick O'Bryant? hah! what the hell were the Warriors thinking.
Saer Sene? I will give ya three fiddy for him.
Cedric Simmons? Will be out of the league in one more year.
Hilton Armstrong? Another one of those bleh type players.. Didn't I guarantee him a bust in 2006? HAH!
Josh Boone? Doing OK, but nothing special.
Those were all the first round project bigs. So far Josh Boone has come the closest to succeeding, with Tyrus Thomas a close second. Still though, Tyrus Thomas has had 5 starts in a row and is only averaging just over 10ppg 6rpg less than a block, and just over an assist. Hardly spectacular.
Now for the first round "stud" BIG college/international players who had good all around games..
LaMarcus Adridge? Starting PF for the improved Trailblazers 17ppg 7rpg 1bpg in his first year starting.
Shelden Williams? BUUUUUUUUST so far.
Andrea Bargnani? I still don't like the guy, but Toronto seems to. He has done well for himself starting C for the improved Raptors.
So right now my BIG "studs" are 66.6% success rate so far, and the project/raw players are a 0% success rate. MAYBE 20% if you say Boone is a success.
Wow, you call that an ojbective analysis? Where's Rudy Gay, Ronnie Brewer, Rajon Rondo for crying out loud? It's pointless anyways, because we have no objective berometer for the different classifications, so don't even try. And only looking at one draft is dumb. You've been essentially saying that you can scout based on college success and not on the package of an individuals' tools. Sure it can be part of the equation but if the player doesn't have the physical abilities to handle the NBA then he doesn't have it, he can't significantly improve on that. However a player can significantly improve their skills.
No, we're not talking the 2006 draft. My problem is you keep proclaiming that it's a fact that college success translates, I'm saying it's not always the case and that players who base their games solely on skills and BB IQ generally do well in college and flame out or become much less prominent in the NBA. Most successful NBA players have elite/above average physical traits whether it's length, reach, or athleticism (speed, lat. quickness, jumping, explosivness). The only physical trait that Love is really above average in at his position is his body strength.
Ok.. You just woke me up lol... Now you've done it
Since we are talking 2006 I will list all the "raw/projects"
Tyrus Thomas? Still has not found his place on a crappy Bulls team althogh he's starting now!
Patrick O'Bryant? hah! what the hell were the Warriors thinking.
Saer Sene? I will give ya three fiddy for him.
Cedric Simmons? Will be out of the league in one more year.
Hilton Armstrong? Another one of those bleh type players.. Didn't I guarantee him a bust in 2006? HAH!
Josh Boone? Doing OK, but nothing special.
Those were all the first round project bigs. So far Josh Boone has come the closest to succeeding, with Tyrus Thomas a close second. Still though, Tyrus Thomas has had 5 starts in a row and is only averaging just over 10ppg 6rpg less than a block, and just over an assist. Hardly spectacular.
Now for the first round "stud" BIG college/international players who had good all around games..
LaMarcus Adridge? Starting PF for the improved Trailblazers 17ppg 7rpg 1bpg in his first year starting.
Shelden Williams? BUUUUUUUUST so far.
Andrea Bargnani? I still don't like the guy, but Toronto seems to. He has done well for himself starting C for the improved Raptors.
So right now my BIG "studs" are 66.6% success rate so far, and the project/raw players are a 0% success rate. MAYBE 20% if you say Boone is a success.
Ok, so I left out a Saer Sene quote saying that if we take a project it might as well be him lol.. So anyhow, How's Hilton doing?
You forget to take into account of playing times. These guys are project therefore they need the minutes in order to get better and it usually takes more time for big guy to learn their role.
Hilton Armstrong: He's playing behind David West and Tyson Chandler up front. They're chasing for a championship so he's not going to help
Patrick Obryant: Warriors are chasing for the playoff and they're small balling. They're starting Stephen Jackson as a PF so of course they're no use. Even with a guy like Brandan Wright with skills and athleticism isnt getting any minutes. But watch out, in a few years tthat front court of O'bryant and Wright might be legit.
Josh Boone: This is a guy that was in the same boat as Hiltron Armstrong. Sucks without minutes, but with consistent minute he's actually doing quite well.
Tyrus Thomas: Didnt really get consistent minutes until Skiles got canned. He's improving
The only real bust in your list is Saer Sene. He's on a team without a dominant front court and he still sucks, but for all the other projects, I'd say they just need the minutes
btw, barganani still sucks. His number this year is even worse than his rookie season. He's averaging 10 pts and 3.8 boards as a a center shooting 40%. Not exactly great considering he's the number 1 pick and all. Your Big stud's with skills succeeding is more around 33%
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What about other big athletic "projects" like Dwight Howard, Amare Stoudemire, Andrew Bynum, Tyson Chandler, KG. Admitedly, the odds of getting a bust when drafting an athlete is higher than in drafting a polished "safe" pick. But honestly unless you're picking in the top three you can't get an athletic polished big. I can't think of any big whose come out recently who was labeled as being a limited athlete who became a star. I don't think the Aldridge comparison works because he was always a pretty elite athlete.
For me, I just think taking a safe but average guy at the 12th pick when there are possible stars out there seems like a nice way to keep yourself mired in mediocrity. Teams need to have stars to progress. We have a borderline star in Kevin, if we surround him with solid but not spectacular guys do we really think that wil vault us into contention in the West given how strong it is?
Now there's no way anyone here is going to convince you that they know what kind of pro Klove will be. You already have your own perceptions. That being said, the easiest part of the debate is simply saying that a Kevin Love/Spencer Hawes starting frontcourt would simply aweful defensively in the NBA. They both offer limited shot blocking ability in the NBA, and have limited lateral quickness. Every team in the west has a star frontcourt player except the Kings and the Grizz.
You beleive Kevin Love will be a tremendous NBA rebounder. He could be, Sir Charles proved it can be done being undersized with poor jumping ability. It's going to be a challenge for him to be a solid rebounder night to night because he will be working from behind since he won't be out leaping anyone and he is shorter and slower than most of the guys he will be fighting for rebounds with. Additionally Spencer and Love have limited lateral quickness meaning off ball defense is going to be slow as well.
For me, I just think taking a safe but average guy at the 12th pick when there are possible stars out there seems like a nice way to keep yourself mired in mediocrity. Teams need to have stars to progress. We have a borderline star in Kevin, if we surround him with solid but not spectacular guys do we really think that wil vault us into contention in the West given how strong it is?
Now there's no way anyone here is going to convince you that they know what kind of pro Klove will be. You already have your own perceptions. That being said, the easiest part of the debate is simply saying that a Kevin Love/Spencer Hawes starting frontcourt would simply aweful defensively in the NBA. They both offer limited shot blocking ability in the NBA, and have limited lateral quickness. Every team in the west has a star frontcourt player except the Kings and the Grizz.
You beleive Kevin Love will be a tremendous NBA rebounder. He could be, Sir Charles proved it can be done being undersized with poor jumping ability. It's going to be a challenge for him to be a solid rebounder night to night because he will be working from behind since he won't be out leaping anyone and he is shorter and slower than most of the guys he will be fighting for rebounds with. Additionally Spencer and Love have limited lateral quickness meaning off ball defense is going to be slow as well.
Gary
All-Star
I was talking about big men. that's it. Just because I have a feeling that's what we are gong to be drafting this year.
Gary
All-Star
A few of those weren't "projects" though. KG, Stoudemire, and Howard weren't. Bynum, and Chandler were.
Look, just pointing out that projects have the higher ceiling, but fail to succeed more so than a player that has multiple skills. Petrie tends to draft the skilled players. In fact the only time I seen him draft a project for the Kings was Wallace, and that was when we had one of the best records in the league, and could take the chance.
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