McGrady = Truly Great (MERGED)
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Kobe's the only superstar who doesn't get credit for his rings because he won them alongside a superstar teammate (and out of dislike). Even Pippen gets more credit for his rings than Kobe. No one faults Magic for having Kareem and Worthy and more. No one faults Bird for having McHale and Parish and more.
Kobe and Shaq in the playoffs were a 50/50 proposition. If not, come out and declare with a straight face that Kobe didn't matter in the 3 Sac/LA series. If you think Shaq was primarily responsible for beating teams like Portland and San Antonio, think again. When those teams surrounded him, it was Kobe who provided the scoring punch to overcome their defense. Try Gm3 of the 2000 WCFs where Shaq had 0 pts and 0 rebs in the 1st quarter and the Lakers were down 2-15 to start. Kobe canned about 6 jumpers in a row on cue to prevent a complete wipeout, then fed Harper for the game-winner after the Blazers collapsed on him, and then blocked Sabonis' layup at the buzzer after he got by Shaq (Shaq's man).
All Shaq's work... Revisionist feces.
Kobe and Shaq in the playoffs were a 50/50 proposition. If not, come out and declare with a straight face that Kobe didn't matter in the 3 Sac/LA series. If you think Shaq was primarily responsible for beating teams like Portland and San Antonio, think again. When those teams surrounded him, it was Kobe who provided the scoring punch to overcome their defense. Try Gm3 of the 2000 WCFs where Shaq had 0 pts and 0 rebs in the 1st quarter and the Lakers were down 2-15 to start. Kobe canned about 6 jumpers in a row on cue to prevent a complete wipeout, then fed Harper for the game-winner after the Blazers collapsed on him, and then blocked Sabonis' layup at the buzzer after he got by Shaq (Shaq's man).
All Shaq's work... Revisionist feces.
O
Ok gargy, that's enough... I tried giving your little beloved kobe some props, but I guess that wasn't enough to please you... Where was kobe when the team needed him most against the kings in the 02 wcf? He missed a gimme 4 or 5 footer before horry saved your a**es from getting beat by us in maybe 5 games... Where was he in game six of that quarter when shaq did everything he could to hold off the shots by bibby and hedo(shaq even made like 12 out of 16 free throws or some s***) oh yeah I forgot he did get to the free throw line that game when bibbys nose fouled his elbow... Where was he in the WHOLE damn finals against detroit... Huh? I bet u can't answer that one? Aint no excuse for that pathetic performance... All of kobes big playoff shots have- with the exception of the detroit shot- come to put a team away, never to save his team when their trailing in a series... I've watched kobe basically all his career.... He's got the ball in his hands about 99% of crunch time and all he has to show for it(in the playoffs) are 2 big shots?...
One of the only reasons Kobe is considered so clutch is because he takes EVERY last second shot for the lakers... Kobe is also a cancer, TMac would have 3 rings if he played alongside snaq o'meal too, and he wouldn't have forced him out of LA either. TMac's houston team is basically garbage aside from yao ming, the rookie luther head, and mentally slowmile swift. They've also had a ton of injuries, and still when tmac is back they've won over 2/3 of their games. Kobe's been healthy all season and isn't much above .500. Yeah kobe is a good defender but usually only when he's fighting another big name player(ie wince carter, ray allen) and his pride is on the line. Kobe DOES take 30 shots a game, he took over 30 shots like 6 times this season... 11/31 a little while back ring a bell? I'm not saying kobe isn't a gifted player, I'm saying tmac is better... and I have all you jumping on my back because I said someone is- *shock* BETTER THAN KOBE!
T
How do you know Shaq/TMac would have won three rings? You dont. You really shouldn't bring woulda coulda shoulda and imaginary scenarios into a debate. T Mac's team garbage? Yao Ming, Head, Wesley, Swift, Mutumbo, Anderson, Alston, Barry, Howard is a better surrounding cast than the Lakers have.
Shaq was as much of the problem as Kobe was. Phil also played a part. Shaq had problems with Penny, Eddie Jones, Kobe, Rice, and he also got Van Gundy booted. Both have been jerks at times. It's really funny how people who used to hate Shaq with a passion and say he's nothing but an elbow throwing bully and only good because of his size are now using him as an ally in their hate against the Lakers. If you weren't on Shaq's side before you shouldn't referance him now in hindsight. It's called jumping on the bandwagon.
Kobe has played selfishly at times including a two week stint this year when I wanted to reach into the tv and choke the living day lights out of him but that does not supersede what he has done his whole career. The Lakers are back on track and Kobe is playing like an MVP candidate as of late. How long he keeps it up I don't know. You're entitled to your opinion to who you think is better but your arguments are weak, unintelligent, and without merit. I've seen you post nothing but Laker hate on the ISH Boards with no credible reasoning or substance. If you hate Kobe for one reason or another than just say I don't like Kobe or the Lakers but taking a one sided stance against anything Lakers or Kobe every chance you get just shows exactly what your mindset is.
Shaq was as much of the problem as Kobe was. Phil also played a part. Shaq had problems with Penny, Eddie Jones, Kobe, Rice, and he also got Van Gundy booted. Both have been jerks at times. It's really funny how people who used to hate Shaq with a passion and say he's nothing but an elbow throwing bully and only good because of his size are now using him as an ally in their hate against the Lakers. If you weren't on Shaq's side before you shouldn't referance him now in hindsight. It's called jumping on the bandwagon.
Kobe has played selfishly at times including a two week stint this year when I wanted to reach into the tv and choke the living day lights out of him but that does not supersede what he has done his whole career. The Lakers are back on track and Kobe is playing like an MVP candidate as of late. How long he keeps it up I don't know. You're entitled to your opinion to who you think is better but your arguments are weak, unintelligent, and without merit. I've seen you post nothing but Laker hate on the ISH Boards with no credible reasoning or substance. If you hate Kobe for one reason or another than just say I don't like Kobe or the Lakers but taking a one sided stance against anything Lakers or Kobe every chance you get just shows exactly what your mindset is.
Mutumbo=old, wesley=old, anderson=injury waiting to happen, barry=old, howard=overpaid, alston has a broken leg or something, I already said head is a gem and swift is pretty good. Yeah I exaggerated that they're garbage. I don't like Shaq but he's still a very good player that shouldn't have been forced out. Personally, Kobe annoys the **** out of me and I'm sick of hearing how he's the next jordan or whatever. TMac is just as good and is puting up nearly the same stats with a bad back. Kobe averages 6 more shot attempts per game(TMac 20.3, Kobe 26.6). TMac is averaging more APG(Kobe 4.4, TMac 4.9). TMac is also rebounding better. This season, an UNHEALTHY TMac has shown more than Kobe. TMac hit a clutch 3 a few days ago at golden state+got a very important block as time expired on JRich to send the game into OT, and then had 14 in last night's 4th quarter against seattle on a back to back. This argument that TMac isn't clutch by some people is insane. The fact is, when TMac is in the game for houston he makes his teammates better and they've won over 2/3 of those games.
You said he didn't hit any big playoff shots other than the Detroit shot. That's not true. So far, he's won 3 playoff games outright, not including the Detroit shot. Other times he's made critical late defensive plays or decoyed assists. He's had two separate playoff games at the Rose Garden where he had to pass off to a teammate because Pippen and co. made DAMN sure he wasn't single covered.
1) Playoff clutch shots are missed by everyone, including Jordan. He's missed some, he's made some. Because Kobe missed a couple doesn't negate the ones he's made. A clutch player hits about .500 of his game-winning attempts at best. Miller has missed a BUNCH of them, but he was still rightfully known as a killer because he always was a threat to hit them, and many times he did.
2) Playoff clutch shots aren't as common as they are in the reg season. If your team is winning big, you don't have the opportunity to attempt a clutch shot (2001 for example).
3) BMiller52's point that Kobe takes every clutch shot for the Lakers is factually incorrect (first off) and silly (secondly). That's the ultimate downplay of a guy's accomplishments. Did not Jordan take most of the Bulls' clutch shots? Did not West? Did not Kareem for many years? Did not Miller? Did not Bird? Does that mean that they were only clutch based on the law of averages too? The fact that such players are GIVEN these shots shows how clutch they are. The fact that Kobe is so aggressively defended in those situations also proves it.
1) Playoff clutch shots are missed by everyone, including Jordan. He's missed some, he's made some. Because Kobe missed a couple doesn't negate the ones he's made. A clutch player hits about .500 of his game-winning attempts at best. Miller has missed a BUNCH of them, but he was still rightfully known as a killer because he always was a threat to hit them, and many times he did.
2) Playoff clutch shots aren't as common as they are in the reg season. If your team is winning big, you don't have the opportunity to attempt a clutch shot (2001 for example).
3) BMiller52's point that Kobe takes every clutch shot for the Lakers is factually incorrect (first off) and silly (secondly). That's the ultimate downplay of a guy's accomplishments. Did not Jordan take most of the Bulls' clutch shots? Did not West? Did not Kareem for many years? Did not Miller? Did not Bird? Does that mean that they were only clutch based on the law of averages too? The fact that such players are GIVEN these shots shows how clutch they are. The fact that Kobe is so aggressively defended in those situations also proves it.
You're gypping him down to only 2 big shots now? I got you to raise your number up from 1 to 2. You're in denial, ZERO. A game winner is a game winner.
Those are strict interpretations of game-winners. He hit another to send a Finals game to OT and other shots at about the 30 sec mark to seal wins that I didn't even include. Not to mention clutch plays of other types.
Gm2 - 2000 WCSFs (game-winner)
Gm4 - 2000 Finals (game-winner)
Gm4 - 2002 WCSFs (game-winner)
And in 2004, he had a bad series against Detroit. There was only 1 clutch opportunity in that whole series, and he canned it. Series is different than clutch. If you want to talk about bad series, then yes, he had a bad series. I know you won't be as understanding as a Lakers fan about this excuse, but at the time, he had some issues in his personal life that were FAIRLY serious.
Those are strict interpretations of game-winners. He hit another to send a Finals game to OT and other shots at about the 30 sec mark to seal wins that I didn't even include. Not to mention clutch plays of other types.
Gm2 - 2000 WCSFs (game-winner)
Gm4 - 2000 Finals (game-winner)
Gm4 - 2002 WCSFs (game-winner)
And in 2004, he had a bad series against Detroit. There was only 1 clutch opportunity in that whole series, and he canned it. Series is different than clutch. If you want to talk about bad series, then yes, he had a bad series. I know you won't be as understanding as a Lakers fan about this excuse, but at the time, he had some issues in his personal life that were FAIRLY serious.
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NOTE: Keep your comments about the topic at hand AND NOT about the posters. Period. This isn't whatever board you're referring to. If you have problems with a particular poster on another forum, KEEP THEM THERE.
If you are willing to mind your manners, you're more than welcome here to talk hoops. As far as people taking one-sided stances against anything Lakers, please note the name of the board: KingsFans.com
Hating the Lakers is our job. It's what we do.
And BTW? I don't like Kobe or the Lakers either.
If you are willing to mind your manners, you're more than welcome here to talk hoops. As far as people taking one-sided stances against anything Lakers, please note the name of the board: KingsFans.com
Hating the Lakers is our job. It's what we do.
And BTW? I don't like Kobe or the Lakers either.
T
I apologize for going off topic and any personal attacks made about the poster. I did try to provoke intelligent discussion rather than the one line quips usually used for certain players. I did stray from that a bit but will refrain from doing so in the future.
I'm sure hating the Lakers is your job and you love your job but not to the point where it clouds your judgement that you can't acknowledge an opposing players abilities. That's like me calling C Webb the C word and it ain't his name Chris that I'm talking about, if you know what I meeean'. I understand Chris was instrumental in the resurgance of your franchise and has put up 20/10 thoughout his career. He was also at one time one of the top players/pf in the league before he got injured but he does have his weaknesses just like any other player. I'm trying to get away from the garbage talk. I'm a Laker fan but also a fan of the game so I can appreciate opposing teams players without being too biased,(something I could not do before.)
Forgot to add I hate you guys too, everything Sac! I do enjoy however different perspectives and takes from around the NBA to keep my own perspective in perspective.
I'm sure hating the Lakers is your job and you love your job but not to the point where it clouds your judgement that you can't acknowledge an opposing players abilities. That's like me calling C Webb the C word and it ain't his name Chris that I'm talking about, if you know what I meeean'. I understand Chris was instrumental in the resurgance of your franchise and has put up 20/10 thoughout his career. He was also at one time one of the top players/pf in the league before he got injured but he does have his weaknesses just like any other player. I'm trying to get away from the garbage talk. I'm a Laker fan but also a fan of the game so I can appreciate opposing teams players without being too biased,(something I could not do before.)
Forgot to add I hate you guys too, everything Sac! I do enjoy however different perspectives and takes from around the NBA to keep my own perspective in perspective.
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I am just saying TMac is as good as, if not better than, kobe bryant. I don't see what's so outrageous about this. TMac is on the same level as kobe. TMac is a top swingmen in the game. Kobe is a top swingmen in the game. TMac is clutch. Kobe is clutch. The fact is kobe's coach(except the year he had a horrible record) has been better than Mcgrady's coach. Tracy's teams in orlando weren't all that good, but he still got to the playoffs with them(except the last year in ORL where they did crappy). I went and looked up box scores for kobe's and tracy's games versus eachother, and usually they both did pretty well. Occasionally one or the other got punked, but they usually were pretty even(even though LAL usually won because of Snaq O'meal). Yes I saw Kobe punk Arenas tonight, he is a very good player. That doesn't mean I have to think he's the best perimeter player in the game when IMO there are 2 that are better now(Mcgrady, Iverson), and 2 that I'd rather have for the future(LeBron James and Dwyane Wade). Also The Enemy, I'd like to know your screenname over at inside hoops since you know mine.
I'm not about to get into the who's better argument.
One thing I will say is this. Their stats head to head are very similiar. However, in my opinion two points isn't always two points as some say. In their match ups Kobe seems to always have a few momentum changing plays while Tracy is often content shooting jumpers.
One thing I will say is this. Their stats head to head are very similiar. However, in my opinion two points isn't always two points as some say. In their match ups Kobe seems to always have a few momentum changing plays while Tracy is often content shooting jumpers.
Rockets beat LA with half their roster injured. Tmac hits game winning layup!
TMac didn't have too good of a game at first, but he IS CLUTCH. Rockets actually had to play MOOCHIE NORRIS AND LONNY BAXTER. Dikembe Mutumbo, Derek anderson, bob sura, yao ming, rafer alston, and jon barry all were injured. Mutumbo ended up hurting his finger, and the other guys didn't even play. So much for Kobe being better than TMac huh guys??? TMac took a roster with luther head, juwan howard, david wesley, and stromile swift+NBDL talent and beat a healthy lakers squad.
TMac didn't have too good of a game at first, but he IS CLUTCH. Rockets actually had to play MOOCHIE NORRIS AND LONNY BAXTER. Dikembe Mutumbo, Derek anderson, bob sura, yao ming, rafer alston, and jon barry all were injured. Mutumbo ended up hurting his finger, and the other guys didn't even play. So much for Kobe being better than TMac huh guys??? TMac took a roster with luther head, juwan howard, david wesley, and stromile swift+NBDL talent and beat a healthy lakers squad.
![T[MaC]](/data/avatars/m/1/1105.jpg?1377970461){kind=avatar}
