Martin for expirings

est.1999

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Don't get me wrong, I'm all for trading him and whatever assets we have to get a quality big man. But it's unlikely IMO.

We trade him for expirings and although no Lebrons or Wades are coming over here or even Bosh. But this backcourt is not working. Wouldn't you rather not pay Martin 11 million a year if it's not gonna work.? Let's rid ourseles of his contract and see what we can get in free agency. I'd rather over pay for a second tier big man that can actually help us out than to over pay a second tier SG who isn't helping us. I'm pretty sure once some of the quality free agents realize they are not getting a gigantic contract from the team of their choice they may just sign with us if we have the money
 
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No, hell no, why, what are you thinking, absolutely not. K-Mart's contract is not bad at all. Teams are offering value for him, maybe not much but something. JUST EXPIRINGS= giving up our best movable asset for literally nothing. No, no, no.


What I WOULD be okay with is expirings AND picks a la the Artest trade. I think that might actually be the best way to go- find a team in a similar situation to Houston last year and get their next 2 first round picks for him. Utah could be a good option- NY pick this year, Utah pick next year. But for expirings alone? Absolutely not. I'd rather wait and see if this offseason or next year a better deal comes along.
 
Absolutely not, since his contract is fairly reasonable. I'm more than content to wait out the season, get a goodish draft pick and see how it comes together early next year, and -then- I'll be interested in making moves to shore up weaknesses, add contract, and so on.

We just hit the bottom at the end of last year, and routinely play 3 rookies, a second year guy, and a guy on a one year contract during crunch time. I'm ok with letting these guys sort it out for a while - they're still way better than last year's kings.
 
Absolutely not, since his contract is fairly reasonable. I'm more than content to wait out the season, get a goodish draft pick and see how it comes together early next year, and -then- I'll be interested in making moves to shore up weaknesses, add contract, and so on.

We just hit the bottom at the end of last year, and routinely play 3 rookies, a second year guy, and a guy on a one year contract during crunch time. I'm ok with letting these guys sort it out for a while - they're still way better than last year's kings.


Not when Kevin plays they aren't. Its 2-16 now on the year. 1-12 since he returned last month.

This isn't even a neutral thing -- Kevin playing making no difference. Its a huge negative that seems to have depressed and fractured the entire squad. Not only are guys directly losing minutes who need them, but that very feisty spirit which was the true indication of rebirth around here is gone and nobody has a role anymore. Its not making things easier on our rookie PG, but much much harder. Other teams haven't beaten our team. Our team has beaten itself. We are dying of self-inflicted gunshot wounds here. The fanbase which just finally FINALLY was starting to come back is trickling away again, just in time for season ticket renewals to come out. There is somehting, a LOT of something, to be said for a) winning, b) fighting, c) the feel good.

I think we can do better than jsut straight for enders salary dump, and I have no doubt if Geoff pulls the trigger we will. But remember that even a straight salary dump isn't trading Kevin for nothing. Its trading Kevin for whoever you can buy on the free agent market with that money, or whoever you can take back in trade even though the salaries don't match in trade. I don't think it would happen, but in a perfect world its even an alternative way to basically trade Kevin for Bosh or somebody.
 
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If I'm not mistaken Brick, you were a little more adamant that Martin was worth more than expirings while he was out with the injury. But now this team has fallen on their faces. And having guys like Casspi and Greene on the team I think the Martin experiment should be terminated. Look at Greene, the guy can give you 30 points and the next night he can lock up a player or slow down a great player. We can never say that with Martin. The kids need time and he's taking them away just so he can take a dump on the court.
 
No, hell no, why, what are you thinking, absolutely not. K-Mart's contract is not bad at all. Teams are offering value for him, maybe not much but something. JUST EXPIRINGS= giving up our best movable asset for literally nothing. No, no, no.


What I WOULD be okay with is expirings AND picks a la the Artest trade. I think that might actually be the best way to go- find a team in a similar situation to Houston last year and get their next 2 first round picks for him. Utah could be a good option- NY pick this year, Utah pick next year. But for expirings alone? Absolutely not. I'd rather wait and see if this offseason or next year a better deal comes along.


Technically nothing really means cap space.. It's a chance at a better player. I would like to get that plus maybe a draft pick or two. Who knows, but cap space means a lot right now.. I would rather just have cap space than trading for pieces with long contracts that don't help the team i.e. Nocioni. We got him for Salmons, and Miller, but who here would have just rather had the space than Noc? I am one of them.
 
If I'm not mistaken Brick, you were a little more adamant that Martin was worth more than expirings while he was out with the injury. But now this team has fallen on their faces. And having guys like Casspi and Greene on the team I think the Martin experiment should be terminated. Look at Greene, the guy can give you 30 points and the next night he can lock up a player or slow down a great player. We can never say that with Martin. The kids need time and he's taking them away just so he can take a dump on the court.


I was indeed. And I am STILL not eager to dump him for nothing more than expirings unless its absolutely the last resort (and by the way I highly doubt it is -- its a question of how much extra candy we can extract, not "if" -- Kevin is better than all that).

But this has been considerably worse than even I anticipated, and I have been watching a good thing we had going here kick and scream and die from an intense dose of self-administered poison. That has been painful, and it just makes everything just that much harder going forward. The fanbase, already filled with doubt about our emergence this year, now just has one more reason next year to say yeah yeah, they won for a while last year too and it didn't lead anywhere. Meanwhile Donte's contract ends after next season, so does Westphal's, Sergio and Brockman are up after this season, Cisco is about to return, Noc's and Beno's lack of minutes and production could rapidly make their big deals unmoveable, season ticket renewals are coming up, there is an arena being talked about that willneed some level of public enthusiasm to fill if not build, and the owneres are now talking about financial armageddon and a long potentially disastrous lockout after next year. Being young means that you should have a long window, but it doesn't mean that time isn't running against you. I could tell you exactly what the team we had here a month ago needed in order to take the next step into being a playoff team/team to be contended with. I can't make the same claim wiht this current crew because we have lost key attributes that we had filled. We aren't scoring anymore, our chemistry is fractured, nobody knows or likes their roles, its a mess. Hell, I've even had to break otu the themese again as the fanbase filters abck away bored wiht nightly beatings. That's before we get to the effects on the morale of these kids who were so willing to fight anyone and everyone just a month or two ago, or the impression such a depressing place leaves on possible free agents. The longer this goes on, the longer it sets us back.

And making it worse is that Kevin himself is eroding his value in the process. I saw a lot (but as I have mentioned in other threads, not all) of this coming, and so I wanted us to be proactive and make a move before the rest of the league got a look at this ugliness. Instead not only has his return appeared to torpedo our chemistry, but he himself is going down with the ship. People say yeah his value will rebound. Are you sure? And by how much? And at what cost to guys who are going to be around in the future? Even if we start playing a little better, if we finish up with 25 wins after the start we got off to, do you really think people are not going to conenct the dots and question why this happened? What happens if he gets hurt again -- this a guy who has suffered significant injuries each of the last 3 years? I don't want any other team interested in Kevin to be reading this, and I am all for Geoff playing the cool cucumber to try to convince teams that they have to up their bids for Kevin. But I am open to everything at this point, including things I would not have been a month ago. I'll be quite disappointed if we have to settle for just an ender. But more disappointed if we sell out a good young group who promised goood things for our future just for the sake of sentiment and inertia. Sometimes things just do not work, and you have to have courage, bite the bullet, and make a change. Our guys were doing qute well on their own, given everything. They'll be ok. Better even. And frankly Kevin will be better off too, especially if he ends up going someplace like Boston where he might even have an outside shot at a title, or at least a deep playoff run.
 
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Meanwhile Donte's contract ends after next season

Donté is a second-year so we have a team option on 2011-2012 (if the season happens! :eek:) and then he's a restricted free agent the summer of 2012.

And making it worse is that Kevin himself is eroding his value in the process.
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People say yeah his value will rebound. Are you sure? And by how much?

Nobody can be sure that he will rebound, but he has a history of being one of the most efficient players in the league on a per-shot basis - top 11 (yeah, one year he was #11) in the league in TS% for each of the past four years. Now suddenly this year he has gone waaaay south. Why? I don't know. Maybe he's still feeling the effects of his injury, off hand and all. Maybe it's just a slump. But he just turned 27, so it's not age, and I remain completely unconvinced by the "can't play with Tyreke Evans" argument.

So form my point of view, I would say that I would be quite surprised if Kevin doesn't put up at least three more seasons of .600+ TS% in his career to add to the four he's already done - in other words, I expect he'll get back to where he was efficiency-wise, and his value should rebound similarly. The question as far as I'm concerned is whether we sell low and he rebounds for another team, or we hold on to him and he rebounds for us.
 
And I am STILL not eager to dump him for nothing more than expirings unless its absolutely the last resort (and by the way I highly doubt it is -- its a question of how much extra candy we can extract, not "if" -- Kevin is better than all that).

Agreed, We can do much much better for martin. We might struggle with him now but were hardly contending. With time we will get better on court and as for now you dont do a deal unless we get some real good quality back that helps us in the long term picture.

Its the difference between a deal like martin for ray allan or martin for jefferson and flynn or a pick. The latter is really one you go after and GP will not take any less of a trade than something on those lines IMO.
 
Agreed, We can do much much better for martin. We might struggle with him now but were hardly contending. With time we will get better on court and as for now you dont do a deal unless we get some real good quality back that helps us in the long term picture.

Its the difference between a deal like martin for ray allan or martin for jefferson and flynn or a pick. The latter is really one you go after and GP will not take any less of a trade than something on those lines IMO.

Yeah-no.
 
I really like Kevin and he was the only reason to even weatch the Kings for a while, which speaks to how bad it was.

But I've been disappointed that he really hasn't show much, if any improvement since he returned. I'll admit things were sliding before he even got back, but I do think his return has made the slide even worse. All the energy and drive seems to have been sucked right out of this team. Even Westphal seems testy and is clearly tired of answering questions about the poor play of this team.

Could Kevin "blow-up" and be great somewhere else. Certainly. But I suspect if he does it will have more to do the team he joins, than with Kevin himself. He could be a perfect fit on some teams that just need the right priece to help them contend and/or make a deeper push into the playoffs.

Honestly, at this point, I'm not sure we wouldn't be doing Martin a favor by trading him to a currently better team. A team that can best make use of his talents.

And I've been concerned about his injury-proneness for awhile. It's not his fault. Some players bodies are just prone to injury, because of the way they are built. Not just size in tems of bulk or muscle, but the lightness or heaviness of bone and the way bones, muscle, tendon and ligaments align properly, or not quite, in the individual.

I think it would be right to move him for something we really need. Expiring contracts is just so boring. ;)
 
I was indeed. And I am STILL not eager to dump him for nothing more than expirings unless its absolutely the last resort (and by the way I highly doubt it is -- its a question of how much extra candy we can extract, not "if" -- Kevin is better than all that).

But this has been considerably worse than even I anticipated, and I have been watching a good thing we had going here kick and scream and die from an intense dose of self-administered poison. That has been painful, and it just makes everything just that much harder going forward. The fanbase, already filled with doubt about our emergence this year, now just has one more reason next year to say yeah yeah, they won for a while last year too and it didn't lead anywhere. Meanwhile Donte's contract ends after next season, so does Westphal's, Sergio and Brockman are up after this season, Cisco is about to return, Noc's and Beno's lack of minutes and production could rapidly make their big deals unmoveable, season ticket renewals are coming up, there is an arena being talked about that willneed some level of public enthusiasm to fill if not build, and the owneres are now talking about financial armageddon and a long potentially disastrous lockout after next year. Being young means that you should have a long window, but it doesn't mean that time isn't running against you. I could tell you exactly what the team we had here a month ago needed in order to take the next step into being a playoff team/team to be contended with. I can't make the same claim wiht this current crew because we have lost key attributes that we had filled. We aren't scoring anymore, our chemistry is fractured, nobody knows or likes their roles, its a mess. Hell, I've even had to break otu the themese again as the fanbase filters abck away bored wiht nightly beatings. That's before we get to the effects on the morale of these kids who were so willing to fight anyone and everyone just a month or two ago, or the impression such a depressing place leaves on possible free agents. The longer this goes on, the longer it sets us back.

And making it worse is that Kevin himself is eroding his value in the process. I saw a lot (but as I have mentioned in other threads, not all) of this coming, and so I wanted us to be proactive and make a move before the rest of the league got a look at this ugliness. Instead not only has his return appeared to torpedo our chemistry, but he himself is going down with the ship. People say yeah his value will rebound. Are you sure? And by how much? And at what cost to guys who are going to be around in the future? Even if we start playing a little better, if we finish up with 25 wins after the start we got off to, do you really think people are not going to conenct the dots and question why this happened? What happens if he gets hurt again -- this a guy who has suffered significant injuries each of the last 3 years? I don't want any other team interested in Kevin to be reading this, and I am all for Geoff playing the cool cucumber to try to convince teams that they have to up their bids for Kevin. But I am open to everything at this point, including things I would not have been a month ago. I'll be quite disappointed if we have to settle for just an ender. But more disappointed if we sell out a good young group who promised goood things for our future just for the sake of sentiment and inertia. Sometimes things just do not work, and you have to have courage, bite the bullet, and make a change. Our guys were doing qute well on their own, given everything. They'll be ok. Better even. And frankly Kevin will be better off too, especially if he ends up going someplace like Boston where he might even have an outside shot at a title, or at least a deep playoff run.

I think we're headed toward a scenario where it comes down to an expiring and a draft pick near draft time. Similar to the deal the Warriors got for J-Rich a couple years ago. I think a pick in the 10-25 range is much more likely than top 10. Though perhaps something could happen with the Jazz and the NYK pick.

I think that's about as good as we could have done two months ago so waiting probably didn't hurt us. We endlessly hashed out trade ideas but I don't think we had a realistic scenario starring a young big that would be better than a pick and cap space for 2011. Its nice, because this is a deep draft for defensive bigs, and 2011 is a deep free agent class for centers.

The doomsday possibility that you are alluding to is if Martin gets hurt again this year his value could creep into the area where you can't even give him away. Its not likely, but its frightening.
 
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