Luka Doncic - performance discussion

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Nobody thinks MB3 is a bust, but they passed up a generational player and that won't sit well with a lot of fans. I have a feeling he's going to make Dallas a nemesis for the kings for years to come.
Some fans maybe. A lot of fans? Not so sure. The Kings are putting an entertaining product on the court and they're winning more than they're losing. Fans will come to see that and they will be 100% behind their Kings.
 
Zion will be labeled generational next year.
If he plays like Luka is then yes you're right. It's doubtful he will play as good as Luka though just based on history.

I don't know why so many people in this thread have such a hard time admitting that Luka is special and is going to be a great player. In many aspects (such as clutch ability to close games) he already is a great player. He's doing things consistently that 19 year old players just don't do. There is no cliff/wall coming. Players with his kind of basketball IQ, skill level, and "it factor" don't just suddenly become also-rans in their second year.

Yesterday with a bunch of scrubs (that should all be bench players) he led a comeback against the Trailblazers. He was big time once again in the 4th quarter down the stretch. Rookies almost never do that consistently and Luka has been doing it the entire season.

Assuming that Porzingis is healthy next year and Dallas picks up one more good free agent this summer then I expect Dallas to be on the rise within the same window as the Kings. That should make for a great rivalry just as the Kings had with Dallas in the early 2000's with two highly skilled offensive powerhouses.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

That's right, I said it!
Staff member
... I don't know why so many people in this thread have such a hard time admitting that Luka is special and is going to be a great player...
Conversely, I don't understand why so many people in this thread have such a hard time accepting that some people may never give Luka Doncic the exact level of praise that they think he's entitled to. Because people are saying that Doncic is special: is the praise not effusive enough? Not universal enough? Does the praise have to come without caveat, at all times, or else it doesn't count?

This is why I asked the open-ended question a few weeks ago: what are Luka Doncic fans demanding from Kings fans, in order to make this go away? Because there appears to be this repeated refrain that Doncic's performance in the NBA is being "downplayed" on KF.com. For the sake of argument, let's stipulate that that's true... so what? I mean sure, this is the #NBA subfolder, but this is still, ultimately, a Sacramento Kings message board, operated primarily for the benefit of Sacramento Kings fans: you should expect any and every player who's not actively playing for the Kings, past, present and future, to have their performance "downplayed," for any reason, or none whatsoever. Whether that performance is being "downplayed" in isolation of one game, or in perpetuity.

Are Doncic fans digging in on the platform of, "You guys need to give Luka the praise we say he deserves, or else!"? Like, what's the endgame, here? What is the correct amount of praise?
 
If he plays like Luka is then yes you're right. It's doubtful he will play as good as Luka though just based on history.

I don't know why so many people in this thread have such a hard time admitting that Luka is special and is going to be a great player. In many aspects (such as clutch ability to close games) he already is a great player. He's doing things consistently that 19 year old players just don't do. There is no cliff/wall coming. Players with his kind of basketball IQ, skill level, and "it factor" don't just suddenly become also-rans in their second year.

Yesterday with a bunch of scrubs (that should all be bench players) he led a comeback against the Trailblazers. He was big time once again in the 4th quarter down the stretch. Rookies almost never do that consistently and Luka has been doing it the entire season.

Assuming that Porzingis is healthy next year and Dallas picks up one more good free agent this summer then I expect Dallas to be on the rise within the same window as the Kings. That should make for a great rivalry just as the Kings had with Dallas in the early 2000's with two highly skilled offensive powerhouses.
His impact can’t be overstated Dallas would be pheonix/Cleveland bad without him that game last night was absurd to lead them with bench players vs Portland
 
I feel like the term generational is being thrown about in such a fashion its starting to become meaningless.
OK here's a meaning: no other 19 year old is doing what he's doing, especially in the clutch. He's got ice in his veins and he isn't even 20 yet. Think of the most clutch players in the game, and he's right there at the top and hasn't even established his final form.

That aspect to his game, alone, merits special consideration. Now when you combine that with his overall abilities and production, and yeah you have something special.
 
The question is how many generational players can you have at the same time?

I'll put my 2 cents on that. A generational player is one that comes around once every 15 - 20 years or so and completely dominates or revolutionizes the game and there is no disputing his status while he is playing.

The current generational player is Lebron. His dominant run has been unquestioned. Put him on almost any team in the league and he will elevate them to the playoffs and possible title contenders. He changed how much control players have over their own careers and how players choose to combine with other players to form super teams rather than just hope the team that drafted them is competent enough to produce a title run.

There are always star players in the league who are amazing and put up big time stats and break records. But they aren't all generational. The jury is out on who the next guy will be.
 
^^^Yes, that is what I mean when "generational" is over used to the point of becoming meaningless. There can only be about 2 generational guys in the league at any time, perhaps 3 if one is a rookie and one is on the edge of retirement.

I really, really like Luka but I am not sure I can even grant him "unicorn" status because he doesn't have freak athleticism to go with his freak game.

And while I truly appreciate that he's the first 19 year old to do this or that, he's also the first 19 year old to come into the NBA with 4 years of pro experience. Which is one of the main reasons I was in-favor of drafting him.
 
The question is how many generational players can you have at the same time?

I'll put my 2 cents on that. A generational player is one that comes around once every 15 - 20 years or so and completely dominates or revolutionizes the game and there is no disputing his status while he is playing.

The current generational player is Lebron. His dominant run has been unquestioned. Put him on almost any team in the league and he will elevate them to the playoffs and possible title contenders. He changed how much control players have over their own careers and how players choose to combine with other players to form super teams rather than just hope the team that drafted them is competent enough to produce a title run.

There are always star players in the league who are amazing and put up big time stats and break records. But they aren't all generational. The jury is out on who the next guy will be.
I truly think Doncic fits in the mold of generational talent. Wings who can handle the ball, facilitate, playmake, shoot, create, and score are the true special ones in the NBA. Doncic is a legitimate 6'8 wing who can do all of the above. How many of these are in the NBA? I can only think of one name... LeBron James.

How often do you find a 6'8 player who can handle the ball like a PG? And be able to put up 20.8pts 7.1rebs 5.5asts 1.1stls on 43.3/34.8/72.2. It's nearly unheard of.
 
^^^Yes, that is what I mean when "generational" is over used to the point of becoming meaningless. There can only be about 2 generational guys in the league at any time, perhaps 3 if one is a rookie and one is on the edge of retirement.

I really, really like Luka but I am not sure I can even grant him "unicorn" status because he doesn't have freak athleticism to go with his freak game.

And while I truly appreciate that he's the first 19 year old to do this or that, he's also the first 19 year old to come into the NBA with 4 years of pro experience. Which is one of the main reasons I was in-favor of drafting him.
If he had freak athleticism, he'd unanimously be the greatest prospect ever in the history of the NBA. LeBron with a killer jumpshot.
 
I truly think Doncic fits in the mold of generational talent. Wings who can handle the ball, facilitate, playmake, shoot, create, and score are the true special ones in the NBA. Doncic is a legitimate 6'8 wing who can do all of the above. How many of these are in the NBA? I can only think of one name... LeBron James.

How often do you find a 6'8 player who can handle the ball like a PG? And be able to put up 20.8pts 7.1rebs 5.5asts 1.1stls on 43.3/34.8/72.2. It's nearly unheard of.
Paul George 6'9 - 28.7 pts, 8 rebs, 4.1 asts, 48.9/41.3/83.6

That's just the first guy that popped in my head. He's been doing it his whole career

I'm not knocking Luka. I acknowledge the talent, but not the generational thing. You also can't ignore the fact that he's been playing pro for 4 years. We would expect him to come in and hit the ground running and outpace most rookies. That's a big advantage in the short term.
 
Paul George 6'9 - 28.7 pts, 8 rebs, 4.1 asts, 48.9/41.3/83.6

That's just the first guy that popped in my head. He's been doing it his whole career

I'm not knocking Luka. I acknowledge the talent, but not the generational thing. You also can't ignore the fact that he's been playing pro for 4 years. We would expect him to come in and hit the ground running and outpace most rookies. That's a big advantage in the short term.
Paul George has never been a natural playmaker nor facilitator. In his rookie year he played 20.7mpg and averaged 1.1asts. In his 2nd year he played 29.7mins and averaged 2.4asts. In his 3rd year he played 37.7mpg and averaged 4.1asts...which would be his career high.

However, he has a career average of 3.3apg which doesn't fit that mold at all.

The closest players would be Harden, Kobe, and Wade... but none of them are 6'8. This is why LeBron has been considered the GOAT... and it's what makes Luka special.
 
Like, what's the endgame, here?
I can tell you what the end game isn't........getting sucked into another one of your classic arguments that just spins in circles debating semantics that have nothing to do with the original subject. You'll use italics, underlines, red font, hashtags, write about yourself, and eventually it will end up in a debate over something like "what the meaning of the word 'is' is".

No thanks. Go ahead and notch this as a W for you and a forfeit L for me.
 
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Paul George has never been a natural playmaker nor facilitator. In his rookie year he played 20.7mpg and averaged 1.1asts. In his 2nd year he played 29.7mins and averaged 2.4asts. In his 3rd year he played 37.7mpg and averaged 4.1asts...which would be his career high.

However, he has a career average of 3.3apg which doesn't fit that mold at all.

The closest players would be Harden, Kobe, and Wade... but none of them are 6'8. This is why LeBron has been considered the GOAT... and it's what makes Luka special.
Being 6'8 is the special part? Luka is 6'7, so where does that leave us? I can't discount all that Harden, Kobe and Wade do because they're a couple of inches shorter. They actually player more comparable roles to Luka.

Luka is the primary ball handler for his team. George is not asked to do that, although he handles the ball very well and would be fine if a team told him to play point forward. George plays a true SF role who sometimes plays 4 in a small ball lineup. That does not lend itself to getting a bunch of assists as easily as being the actual point guard on a team. In addition, he is playing alongside Westbrook who is absolutely ball dominant and yet PG is still putting up similar assist numbers to Luka. As a matter of fact, George just posted a triple double yesterday. And he can defend his position. You asked me about 6'8 wings, so I gave it to you.
 
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Mr. S£im Citrus

That's right, I said it!
Staff member
I can tell you what the end game isn't........getting sucked into another one of your classic arguments that just spins in circles debating semantics that have nothing to do with the original subject. You'll use italics, underlines, red font, hashtags, write about yourself, and eventually it will end up in a debate over something like "what the meaning of the word 'is' is".

No thanks. Go ahead and notch this as a W for you and a forfeit L for me.
Sure, why not? 'Cause, why make a list of demands, when you can just complain about your guy not getting his due, instead?

That's the real con, isn't it? Never say what it is you actually want, so you can forever whine about how you didn't get it.
 
The question is how many generational players can you have at the same time?

I'll put my 2 cents on that. A generational player is one that comes around once every 15 - 20 years or so and completely dominates or revolutionizes the game and there is no disputing his status while he is playing.

The current generational player is Lebron. His dominant run has been unquestioned. Put him on almost any team in the league and he will elevate them to the playoffs and possible title contenders. He changed how much control players have over their own careers and how players choose to combine with other players to form super teams rather than just hope the team that drafted them is competent enough to produce a title run.

There are always star players in the league who are amazing and put up big time stats and break records. But they aren't all generational. The jury is out on who the next guy will be.
the next guy isn't in the NBA at this moment, in my opinion.
 
Being 6'8 is the special part? Luka is 6'7, so where does that leave us? I can't discount all that Harden, Kobe and Wade do because they're a couple of inches shorter. They actually player more comparable roles to Luka.

Luka is the primary ball handler for his team. George is not asked to do that, although he handles the ball very well and would be fine if a team told him to play point forward. George plays a true SF role who sometimes plays 4 in a small ball lineup. That does not lend itself to getting a bunch of assists as easily as being the actual point guard on a team. In addition, he is playing alongside Westbrook who is absolutely ball dominant and yet PG is still putting up similar assist numbers to Luka. As a matter of fact, George just posted a triple double yesterday. And he can defend his position. You asked me about 6'8 wings, so I gave it to you.
Well just have to disagree on this one. Doncic is 6’7 just like how Buddy was only 25yearsold. He’s 6’8 or 6’9. He’s taller than Barnes lol
 
Them: GIVE LUKA CREDIT!
Me: Okay, what counts as 'credit'?
Them: OH NO, I'M NOT GOING TO FALL FOR YOUR WORD GAMES!
Me: ???
I can't answer your question Slim, because I'm on the other side, but it sure feels like the answer is they want everyone who has moved on and accepted the Bagley choice to agree with their conclusion that the Kings made a franchise-altering error in not picking Doncic.

I just can't get there. Not yet.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
I can't answer your question Slim, because I'm on the other side, but it sure feels like the answer is they want everyone who has moved on and accepted the Bagley choice to agree with their conclusion that the Kings made a franchise-altering error in not picking Doncic.

I just can't get there. Not yet.
I mean, the fact that we're having this particular argument a matter of hours after Bagley puts up one of the better rookie performances in Kings franchise history is puzzling at best.
 
I can't answer your question Slim, because I'm on the other side, but it sure feels like the answer is they want everyone who has moved on and accepted the Bagley choice to agree with their conclusion that the Kings made a franchise-altering error in not picking Doncic.

I just can't get there. Not yet.
I haven't read through the last couple pages but I agree with that. I like Bagley and am rooting for him as hard as I am for any King but I can't help but think about how difficult it's been for Anthony Davis to get to the playoffs when he is essentially Bagley at his ceiling with even better defense. If AD can't get anything going, then how important are offensive minded big men these days to winning basketball games?

It seems as if big men led teams kind of top out around .500 depending on who their help is. Embiid without Simmons was somewhere around .500 and with Simmons he's a perennial playoff contender. KAT can't get anything going without Butler. Cousins had the least amount of talent around him but he still had Gay, IT and Rondo at some points. The Lemarcus Aldridge led Spurs are just "meh".

These days if you don't shoot a ton of 3s, you don't compete. The NBA really needs to push the 3 point line back by a couple feet to restore order in the league because it's tilted way too far in the favor of perimeter players. All teams need to do to win is load up on perimeter players that can shoot and then counteract your all star big man with a solid defending big man who just rebounds, blocks shots and catches lobs. At that point it doesn't matter if your all star big man scores 35 because he can't out efficiency all these perimeter players jacking up 3s. Your big has to shoot 50% from 2 to be able to compete with a G League no name who shoots 33% from 3. These days everyone is shooting well above 33% so your big has to be extremely efficient and has to get to the line a ton to be able to compete with average NBA players shooting average NBA 3 pointers. I wish the league would do something about it honestly but until then, the big man is not nearly as important as the wing....especially one who does it all like Doncic.
 
I can't answer your question Slim, because I'm on the other side, but it sure feels like the answer is they want everyone who has moved on and accepted the Bagley choice to agree with their conclusion that the Kings made a franchise-altering error in not picking Doncic.

I just can't get there. Not yet.
I think this is right. I was pretty vocal in not wanting Luka, I wanted jjj. Luka has definitely been better than I thought but all my arguments against him still hold true... We want the ball in Fox's hands, his ceiling is capped by athleticism, he's somewhat redundant with bogi, etc. If the draft was reheld again today knowing what we now know I'd still go Bagley. He's fit like a glove and his upside seems almost limitless. Luka has been amazing for a rookie but he was also amazing in Europe as an 18 yr old. He's a very good player at a young age. The question is who will be the better player in their prime? I'll take Bagley with his upside and perfect fit at the moment.
 
I haven't read through the last couple pages but I agree with that. I like Bagley and am rooting for him as hard as I am for any King but I can't help but think about how difficult it's been for Anthony Davis to get to the playoffs when he is essentially Bagley at his ceiling with even better defense. If AD can't get anything going, then how important are offensive minded big men these days to winning basketball games?

It seems as if big men led teams kind of top out around .500 depending on who their help is. Embiid without Simmons was somewhere around .500 and with Simmons he's a perennial playoff contender. KAT can't get anything going without Butler. Cousins had the least amount of talent around him but he still had Gay, IT and Rondo at some points. The Lemarcus Aldridge led Spurs are just "meh".

These days if you don't shoot a ton of 3s, you don't compete. The NBA really needs to push the 3 point line back by a couple feet to restore order in the league because it's tilted way too far in the favor of perimeter players. All teams need to do to win is load up on perimeter players that can shoot and then counteract your all star big man with a solid defending big man who just rebounds, blocks shots and catches lobs. At that point it doesn't matter if your all star big man scores 35 because he can't out efficiency all these perimeter players jacking up 3s. Your big has to shoot 50% from 2 to be able to compete with a G League no name who shoots 33% from 3. These days everyone is shooting well above 33% so your big has to be extremely efficient and has to get to the line a ton to be able to compete with average NBA players shooting average NBA 3 pointers. I wish the league would do something about it honestly but until then, the big man is not nearly as important as the wing....especially one who does it all like Doncic.
But that's the thing, is the Kings have a ton of shooters and added a big guy who in a year or two is going to be unstoppable. Having a major inside presence opens up more space for the shooters, and when your shots aren't falling from deep, you bang it inside for easier (but less valuable) buckets.

Even if we concede that Doncic will have the better career (which I think is far from a foregone conclusion); the Kings needed an elite inside guy more than they needed Doncic who represents an incremental upgrade on players they already have.

The problem with Davis was that they've been married to one of the worst coaches in the league and despite that Davis has always been good enough to keep them from drafting serious talent to build around. Incidentally - I fear this for Doncic now as well. Even after they trade everyone for a giant question mark; the guy is still willing them to win games and is probably going to insure they lose their first rounder this year, forcing them to bank everything on winning big in free agency. Yet I don't hear any players saying "DALLAS!" in their trade demands.
 
I haven't read through the last couple pages but I agree with that. I like Bagley and am rooting for him as hard as I am for any King but I can't help but think about how difficult it's been for Anthony Davis to get to the playoffs when he is essentially Bagley at his ceiling with even better defense. If AD can't get anything going, then how important are offensive minded big men these days to winning basketball games?

It seems as if big men led teams kind of top out around .500 depending on who their help is. Embiid without Simmons was somewhere around .500 and with Simmons he's a perennial playoff contender. KAT can't get anything going without Butler. Cousins had the least amount of talent around him but he still had Gay, IT and Rondo at some points. The Lemarcus Aldridge led Spurs are just "meh".

These days if you don't shoot a ton of 3s, you don't compete. The NBA really needs to push the 3 point line back by a couple feet to restore order in the league because it's tilted way too far in the favor of perimeter players. All teams need to do to win is load up on perimeter players that can shoot and then counteract your all star big man with a solid defending big man who just rebounds, blocks shots and catches lobs. At that point it doesn't matter if your all star big man scores 35 because he can't out efficiency all these perimeter players jacking up 3s. Your big has to shoot 50% from 2 to be able to compete with a G League no name who shoots 33% from 3. These days everyone is shooting well above 33% so your big has to be extremely efficient and has to get to the line a ton to be able to compete with average NBA players shooting average NBA 3 pointers. I wish the league would do something about it honestly but until then, the big man is not nearly as important as the wing....especially one who does it all like Doncic.
The good news for us is we already have fox and hield.
 
I think this is right. I was pretty vocal in not wanting Luka, I wanted jjj. Luka has definitely been better than I thought but all my arguments against him still hold true... We want the ball in Fox's hands, his ceiling is capped by athleticism, he's somewhat redundant with bogi, etc. If the draft was reheld again today knowing what we now know I'd still go Bagley. He's fit like a glove and his upside seems almost limitless. Luka has been amazing for a rookie but he was also amazing in Europe as an 18 yr old. He's a very good player at a young age. The question is who will be the better player in their prime? I'll take Bagley with his upside and perfect fit at the moment.
And that's another thing, the debate with Kings fans may better be JJJ vs Bags.

It didn't seem Jackson wanted to be here and Bags did, and if everything else turns out equal, we'll see in 7 years if we've re-signed both Fox and Bags to 3rd deals if culture and chemistry have truly paid off.