Christian Wood

[iowamcnabb]

I find myself back in the John Collins camp if we move on from HB. I think he would excel in our system. He can play above the rim which gives us another look we don’t have in front court. He rebounds. His shot started to come back around at the end of last season. His defense is above average or solid.

Fox Mitchell
Velvet Monk
Keegan Jones Kessler
Collins Sasha
Domas Lyles Queta

I like that group a lot.

 

[twslam07]

I find myself back in the John Collins camp if we move on from HB. I think he would excel in our system. He can play above the rim which gives us another look we don’t have in front court. He rebounds. His shot started to come back around at the end of last season. His defense is above average or solid.

Fox Mitchell
Velvet Monk
Keegan Jones Kessler
Collins Sasha
Domas Lyles Queta

I like that group a lot.

I wouldn’t be unhappy if we go this route IF we get our 2024 1st back in exchange for taking on Collins’ deal. If that’s the deal, then the trade was essentially…

Richaun Holmes
2023 SAC 1st (#24 / Prosper)
$10 mil cap space

for

John Collins
2024 SAC 1st
Ability to trade all future 1sts


That seems like a clear win for us from a value perspective…

• We trade a 29 year old Holmes who was out of our rotation for 25 year old Collins who will likely be our starting PF getting 28+ mpg. Collins > Holmes.
• We get our 2024 1st instead of the 2023 1st. Honestly, I’d be a little surprised if we finished the 3rd seed again so our 2024 1st could actually be a better pick at the end of the day. 2024 1st > 2023 1st
• And the ability to trade all future 1sts > not being able to trade all future 1sts.

Obviously losing Barnes and cap space has to be considered in that equation but still think it’s a win.

We’d have a lot of young(ish) assets to still make future moves to upgrade the roster further considering we’d have…

Fox (25)
Mitchell (25)
Huerter (25)
Monk (25)
Jones (21)
Murray (23)
Edwards (23)
Slawson (23)
Vezenkov (28)
Collins (26)
Sabonis (27)
2024 SAC 1st
2025 SAC 1st (Pick Swap)
2026 SAC 1st
2027 SAC 1st (Pick Swap)
2028 SAC 1st
2029 SAC 1st (Pick Swap)
2030 SAC 1st
2024 DAL 2nd
2025 SAC 2nd
2025 POR 2nd
2026 SAC 2nd
2027 SAC 2nd
2028 SAC 2nd
2028 DAL 2nd
2029 SAC 2nd
2030 SAC 2nd


This trade also leaves an extra $8.3 mil in cap space so the Kings could use that to give Sabonis a raise this year (brings him to $30.3 mil) and then extend him with a 140% raise ($42.42 mil salary the following year) which would be right around the max I believe.

So again, they have a lot of flexility with all of those trade assets I listed above while also having their two big cogs (Fox & Sabonis) and their hopeful 3rd big cog (Murray) under team control for awhile.

Considering the fact that this trade hasn’t been made official, I’m wondering if this is the route they are taking as the left over money seems to pair well with the Sabonis raise & extend angle.

 

[iowamcnabb]

I wouldn’t be unhappy if we go this route IF we get our 2024 1st back in exchange for taking on Collins’ deal. If that’s the deal, then the trade was essentially…

Richaun Holmes
2023 SAC 1st (#24 / Prosper)
$10 mil cap space

for

John Collins
2024 SAC 1st
Ability to trade all future 1sts


That seems like a clear win for us from a value perspective…

• We trade a 29 year old Holmes who was out of our rotation for 25 year old Collins who will likely be our starting PF getting 28+ mpg. Collins > Holmes.
• We get our 2024 1st instead of the 2023 1st. Honestly, I’d be a little surprised if we finished the 3rd seed again so our 2024 1st could actually be a better pick at the end of the day. 2024 1st > 2023 1st
• And the ability to trade all future 1sts > not being able to trade all future 1sts.

Obviously losing Barnes and cap space has to be considered in that equation but still think it’s a win.

We’d have a lot of young(ish) assets to still make future moves to upgrade the roster further considering we’d have…

Fox (25)
Mitchell (25)
Huerter (25)
Monk (25)
Jones (21)
Murray (23)
Edwards (23)
Slawson (23)
Vezenkov (28)
Collins (26)
Sabonis (27)
2024 SAC 1st
2025 SAC 1st (Pick Swap)
2026 SAC 1st
2027 SAC 1st (Pick Swap)
2028 SAC 1st
2029 SAC 1st (Pick Swap)
2030 SAC 1st
2024 DAL 2nd
2025 SAC 2nd
2025 POR 2nd
2026 SAC 2nd
2027 SAC 2nd
2028 SAC 2nd
2028 DAL 2nd
2029 SAC 2nd
2030 SAC 2nd


This trade also leaves an extra $8.3 mil in cap space so the Kings could use that to give Sabonis a raise this year (brings him to $30.3 mil) and then extend him with a 140% raise ($42.42 mil salary the following year) which would be right around the max I believe.

So again, they have a lot of flexility with all of those trade assets I listed above while also having their two big cogs (Fox & Sabonis) and their hopeful 3rd big cog (Murray) under team control for awhile.

Considering the fact that this trade hasn’t been made official, I’m wondering if this is the route they are taking as the left over money seems to pair well with the Sabonis raise & extend angle.

I like it but I don’t think we get our first back. I guess it depends what the Hawks want to do with Murray. If they plan to re-sign him they might be desperate enough to move off salary in exchange for a pick in what’s considered a weak draft. I’d be thrilled with that.

If Collins could average 16 and 9 and return to 37% or better from three while giving us size and above the rim play that would be great.

 

[206Fan]

I agree with you in that I’m hesitant to fill our PF position with someone on the smaller side considering we don’t have a defensive anchor at C with good length. Here is the crop of players that have been discussed as our PF and their standing reach and wingspan…

• Christian Wood: 9’3.5” / 7’3.25”
• Naz Reid: 9’1” / 7’3.25”
• Jonathan Isaac: 9’0.5” / 7’1.25”
• Onyeka Okongwu: 9’0” / 7’2”
• Trey Lyles: 9’0” / 7’1.5”
• Pascal Siakam: 8’11.5” / 7’3.25”
• Kyle Anderson: 8’11.5” / 7’2.75”
• OG Anunoby: 8’11.5” / 7’2.25”
• Kyle Kuzma: 8’11.5” / 7’0.25”
• Jerami Grant: 8’11” / 7’2.75”
• PJ Washington: 8’10.5” / 7’2.25”
• John Collins: 8’10.5” / 6’11.25”
• Jarred Vanderbilt: 8’10” / 7’1”
• Keegan Murray: 8’10” / 6’11.75” (using Kris’ measurements)
• Jalen McDaniels: 8’9.5” / 7’0.25”
• Dorian Finney-Smith: 8’9.5” / 6’11.75”
• Draymond Green: 8’9” / 7’1.25”
• Grant Williams: 8’8.5” / 6’9.75”
• Tobias Harris: 8’7.5” / 6’11”
• Cam Johnson: 8’7” / 6’10”
• Harrison Barnes: 8’5.5” / 6’11.25”

Again, I find myself gravitating towards a PF who is bigger/longer than Murray because his size at PF is average but well above average at SF. If we can find a PF with great size/length that gives us two above average sized forwards to cover for Sabonis’ lack of size/length at C.

If that’s the initial filter to the list above, that leaves us with…

• Christian Wood
• Naz Reid
• Jonathan Isaac
• Onyeka Okongwu
• Trey Lyles
• Pascal Siakam
• Kyle Anderson
• OG Anunoby
• Kyle Kuzma
• Jerami Grant
• PJ Washington
• John Collins
• Jarred Vanderbilt

From there, we need someone who can…

1. Space the floor (to maintain our top offense)
2. Be a difference maker on the defensive end (to hopefully improve our 24th ranked defense to be in average territory)
3. Be young enough to grow with our core

Wood fits #1 and #3 but it’s his defense which gives most of us pause. As you and I know, defense is much more than blocking shots. He has issues with making the right reads, missing rotations, defensive awareness, etc. He’s a lower IQ defensive player that has an excellent combination of length & athleticism which allow him to put up good defensive box score stats but that doesn’t mean he’s a good defender nor the type of defender that is going to help boost our defense to average territory.

He also just doesn’t seem like the type of player McNair goes after considering his IQ. McNair seems to really like high IQ, unselfish guys and Wood has question marks in both of those areas. For example, there were only two players in the league that had a higher USG% but a lower AST:USG%. Those two players are Cam Thomas and Kelly Oubre. Both have similar criticisms regarding IQ and unselfish play.

Personally, these are my thoughts on the rest of the list…

• Naz Reid: has some ability to maintain spacing (not as much as I’d like) and is young but I have similar concerns if he can be the type of defender we need at PF to boost us to that average defense territory
• Jonathan Isaac: has some ability to maintain spacing (not as much as I’d like), is young, and is an elite defender that could certainly anchor our defense and boost us to the average territory. However, he’s a massive injury risk and if ORL is trading him, it’s probably a good indicator he’s done anyway.
• Onyeka Okongwu: can absolutely be the defensive anchor we need at PF while fitting the timeline from an age standpoint. However, our spacing would collapse and our offense could take a significant step back with 3 questionable shooters in the starting lineup.
• Trey Lyles: Is the floor spacer we’d need and his age is fine from a timeline standpoint. However, Lyles is not the defensive presence we’d hope next to Sabonis. Not that he’s an awful defender but we’re trying to figure out how we get our defense to average while maintaining our elite offense.
• Pascal Siakam: I think he could improve us defensively and his age is fringe acceptable for me. His shooting is a bit questionable to me, has a high usage, and is best operating in the same spots as Fox & Sabonis (midrange/paint). I don’t like the fit l considering how much he’ll be paid and how much it would take to trade for him. I’m not opposed to acquiring someone who is the same caliber as Siakam but you better be sure they are going to be a great fit next to Fox & Sabonis.
• Kyle Anderson: Not quite the shooter I want but his ability to attack close outs with his excellent handle and passing may still work even though he shoots a low volume of 3s. I think Anderson is a very underrated defender and think he would really help us in that department. He’s a great team defender who makes smart rotations and can help protect the rim a bit. Similar to Siakam, his age is in that fringe territory but might be able to overlook it.
• OG Anunoby: Spaces the floor at a level that we want, is an all defense level talented, and is young. Seems like a perfect fit with the only concerns being injury and how much it would take to trade for him.
• Kyle Kuzma: Not quite the shooter I want considering his 3P%. Age is fine but I question his ability to be the defender we need to boost this team. Seems like an average defender but not good enough for what we’re looking for.
• Jerami Grant: Has the shooting we’d need and his age is acceptable enough. His defense has noticeably decreased since his DEN days (since his offensive role expanded) but he at least has the ability to be an impact defender (and perhaps he’s more inclined to turn up that defensive intensity come playoff time when it’s most needed)
• PJ Washington: Has the shooting and age we’re looking for. His defense is okay/solid but is it good enough to lift this team? Probably not.
• John Collins: He did have the shooting we were looking for but struggled this past season. His age is good and his defense has improved but not to the level that we’d want out of our starting PF to help anchor the defense.
• Jarred Vanderbilt: Is the defender we’d be looking for and fits the timeline really well. However, his shooting has been pretty nonexistent which would jeopardize our elite offense.

It seems like I feel most confident about Anunoby & Grant (with Isaac & Anderson being honorable mentions) considering they have the ability to be the impact defender we need at PF to bring our defense into that 10th-20th range while at the same time helping maintain our elite offense.

Thank you for this extensive list, and I agree with all your points. I think it's clear that if we want to improve our defense, we'll have to give up some of our offense with most, if not all of these options. I think that's just the cost of having your two franchise players (Fox and Sabonis) being minus 3pt shooters. I think Anunoby and Grant are our best options. With Anunoby, I worry that we have to give up Keegan. Is there a path to a trade where we'd be able to keep him? I'm guessing that the Raptors weren't interested in any packages around #24 which is why we ended up pivoting and looking to clear cap space instead. It gave us one less asset to deal.

The more I think about Grant, the more I like the option. We actually get better on offense and he gives us a 3rd scorer that we really needed in the playoffs. I don't know how much this move improves our defense, but it does improve our overall team. In a more free-flowing offense, hopefully he'd be able to put more energy back on the defensive side.

 

[Ozymandias]

I wouldn't sign Woods for $18 mil per year. Maybe if we can get him on a team friendly prove it deal (i.e. $16 mil/2 years) then I think he may be worth a shot. Otherwise, I would try to land bigger fish with our cap space.

Wood is the bigger fish option for me... To me it's Keita Bates-Diop if we're looking for smaller, but the extra $$$ opened from the Holmes trade perhaps opens the door for a bigger fish like Wood..

16 mil for 2 years? Are you looking at his stats? Surely you meant 32 mil for 2 years..

Lets try and have a shred of objectivity please. There's something called Market Value.. I know people would prefer the "throw crap at a wall and see if it sticks" methodology but I say lets just TRY to pretend that Market-Value exists.

 

[Ozymandias]

I agree with you in that I’m hesitant to fill our PF position with someone on the smaller side considering we don’t have a defensive anchor at C with good length. Here is the crop of players that have been discussed as our PF and their standing reach and wingspan…

• Christian Wood: 9’3.5” / 7’3.25”
• Naz Reid: 9’1” / 7’3.25”
• Jonathan Isaac: 9’0.5” / 7’1.25”
• Onyeka Okongwu: 9’0” / 7’2”
• Trey Lyles: 9’0” / 7’1.5”
• Pascal Siakam: 8’11.5” / 7’3.25”
• Kyle Anderson: 8’11.5” / 7’2.75”
• OG Anunoby: 8’11.5” / 7’2.25”
• Kyle Kuzma: 8’11.5” / 7’0.25”
• Jerami Grant: 8’11” / 7’2.75”
• PJ Washington: 8’10.5” / 7’2.25”
• John Collins: 8’10.5” / 6’11.25”
• Jarred Vanderbilt: 8’10” / 7’1”
• Keegan Murray: 8’10” / 6’11.75” (using Kris’ measurements)
• Jalen McDaniels: 8’9.5” / 7’0.25”
• Dorian Finney-Smith: 8’9.5” / 6’11.75”
• Draymond Green: 8’9” / 7’1.25”
• Grant Williams: 8’8.5” / 6’9.75”
• Tobias Harris: 8’7.5” / 6’11”
• Cam Johnson: 8’7” / 6’10”
• Harrison Barnes: 8’5.5” / 6’11.25”

Again, I find myself gravitating towards a PF who is bigger/longer than Murray because his size at PF is average but well above average at SF. If we can find a PF with great size/length that gives us two above average sized forwards to cover for Sabonis’ lack of size/length at C.

If that’s the initial filter to the list above, that leaves us with…

• Christian Wood
• Naz Reid
• Jonathan Isaac
• Onyeka Okongwu
• Trey Lyles
• Pascal Siakam
• Kyle Anderson
• OG Anunoby
• Kyle Kuzma
• Jerami Grant
• PJ Washington
• John Collins
• Jarred Vanderbilt

From there, we need someone who can…

1. Space the floor (to maintain our top offense)
2. Be a difference maker on the defensive end (to hopefully improve our 24th ranked defense to be in average territory)
3. Be young enough to grow with our core

Wood fits #1 and #3 but it’s his defense which gives most of us pause. As you and I know, defense is much more than blocking shots. He has issues with making the right reads, missing rotations, defensive awareness, etc. He’s a lower IQ defensive player that has an excellent combination of length & athleticism which allow him to put up good defensive box score stats but that doesn’t mean he’s a good defender nor the type of defender that is going to help boost our defense to average territory.

He also just doesn’t seem like the type of player McNair goes after considering his IQ. McNair seems to really like high IQ, unselfish guys and Wood has question marks in both of those areas. For example, there were only two players in the league that had a higher USG% but a lower AST:USG%. Those two players are Cam Thomas and Kelly Oubre. Both have similar criticisms regarding IQ and unselfish play.

Personally, these are my thoughts on the rest of the list…

• Naz Reid: has some ability to maintain spacing (not as much as I’d like) and is young but I have similar concerns if he can be the type of defender we need at PF to boost us to that average defense territory
• Jonathan Isaac: has some ability to maintain spacing (not as much as I’d like), is young, and is an elite defender that could certainly anchor our defense and boost us to the average territory. However, he’s a massive injury risk and if ORL is trading him, it’s probably a good indicator he’s done anyway.
• Onyeka Okongwu: can absolutely be the defensive anchor we need at PF while fitting the timeline from an age standpoint. However, our spacing would collapse and our offense could take a significant step back with 3 questionable shooters in the starting lineup.
• Trey Lyles: Is the floor spacer we’d need and his age is fine from a timeline standpoint. However, Lyles is not the defensive presence we’d hope next to Sabonis. Not that he’s an awful defender but we’re trying to figure out how we get our defense to average while maintaining our elite offense.
• Pascal Siakam: I think he could improve us defensively and his age is fringe acceptable for me. His shooting is a bit questionable to me, has a high usage, and is best operating in the same spots as Fox & Sabonis (midrange/paint). I don’t like the fit l considering how much he’ll be paid and how much it would take to trade for him. I’m not opposed to acquiring someone who is the same caliber as Siakam but you better be sure they are going to be a great fit next to Fox & Sabonis.
• Kyle Anderson: Not quite the shooter I want but his ability to attack close outs with his excellent handle and passing may still work even though he shoots a low volume of 3s. I think Anderson is a very underrated defender and think he would really help us in that department. He’s a great team defender who makes smart rotations and can help protect the rim a bit. Similar to Siakam, his age is in that fringe territory but might be able to overlook it.
• OG Anunoby: Spaces the floor at a level that we want, is an all defense level talented, and is young. Seems like a perfect fit with the only concerns being injury and how much it would take to trade for him.
• Kyle Kuzma: Not quite the shooter I want considering his 3P%. Age is fine but I question his ability to be the defender we need to boost this team. Seems like an average defender but not good enough for what we’re looking for.
• Jerami Grant: Has the shooting we’d need and his age is acceptable enough. His defense has noticeably decreased since his DEN days (since his offensive role expanded) but he at least has the ability to be an impact defender (and perhaps he’s more inclined to turn up that defensive intensity come playoff time when it’s most needed)
• PJ Washington: Has the shooting and age we’re looking for. His defense is okay/solid but is it good enough to lift this team? Probably not.
• John Collins: He did have the shooting we were looking for but struggled this past season. His age is good and his defense has improved but not to the level that we’d want out of our starting PF to help anchor the defense.
• Jarred Vanderbilt: Is the defender we’d be looking for and fits the timeline really well. However, his shooting has been pretty nonexistent which would jeopardize our elite offense.

It seems like I feel most confident about Anunoby & Grant (with Isaac & Anderson being honorable mentions) considering they have the ability to be the impact defender we need at PF to bring our defense into that 10th-20th range while at the same time helping maintain our elite offense.

There's no Keita Bates-Diop on this list though, who easily meets some of the criteria your useing to process of eliminate this down.. and I guess maybe he's too small thats why he wasnt considered a PF but he's 230lbs and his wingspan is way longer than most of the players you listed.... He also shot almost 40% from 3 last season n is actually tested to guard on the perimeter unlike some of these names... I honestly dont agree with Naz Reid or Okongwu being on a list of PF's either, those guys are centers..

 

[Ozymandias]

Low IQ player who has never been part of a winning team. I think he isn't the Monte's prototype.

I'd say he's more of a player whos been doubted and placed in sub optimal circumstances throughout his career and has managed to put up very consistent scoring %'s thru all the turbulence.

I mean I was a Christian Wood fan at UNLV, I was gobsmacked when he went undrafted.. People have doubted him hard every step of his carreer, now he's got a decent sized contract and It's strange to me he's still got a bunch of haters..He's been doing great for an undrafted guy no? or he's horrible? deplorable? untennable? beneath our standards of excellence? Not serviceable? People in this thread acting like we're talking about signing the second coming of Anthony Randolph, Joe Alexander or Anthony Bennett.. Like because he wasnt good enough to single handedly save the sinking ships known as the Rockets from 2 seasons ago and the Mavs last season, both of whom are probably tanking, that that means he's not good enough to play backup PF for the Kings. It's crazytalk.

This idea as I've presented it is a massive upgrade anyway you slice it, the fact that you prefer some other option doesnt make this not some massive upgrade.....
The bench unit of

Mitchell
Monk
Colby Jones
Wood
Lyles

would thrive and our 3pt shooting would be even more reliable.. thats spectacular floor spacing to surround a defensive oriented PG like Mitchell with, that unit is good, n you cant convince me that Wood and Monk are incompatible with the way Monk passed the ball last season.


The Low IQ comment is unwarranted too.. Bet this guy thinks tons of players who shoot 40% from the field and 30% from 3 are high IQ players, while Wood shoots 60% from 2pt range and 40% from 3 pt range in adverse circumstances on a new team every year with low IQ... How's he figured how to play so efficiently if he's low IQ?

We dont need Christian Wood to lift the sun moon and stars for us as they needed him to do in Houston and Dallas, we just need him to be Christian Wood, rebound block shots shoot 3's and score the ball, we have our top options already established he'd just be another hot hand, that happens to be able to flex around with all our frontcourt guys positionally.

 

[hrdboild]

For those who want John Collins... are you aware that Collins has, since his 5 year $125 million contract kicked in two years ago, shot 416 three point shots and made 32.2% of them? For a player who gets most of his value on offense by spacing the floor he's not doing a very good job of actually converting those looks. If we go out and get John Collins, this is our team for the next 3 years. I see John Collins as too much of a gamble given his salary and his performance trending in the wrong direction.

I like the idea of Christian Wood more than Jerami Grant or John Collins. His shooting has been more consistent and he has the size and mobility to compliment Domantas Sabonis and occasionally sub in for him as well. He doesn't hunt shots as much as Jerami Grant either. My biggest worry with him is that he's been a below average offensive rebounder and I really would like to see us get someone at that PF spot who is at least average in that area considering how often Domantas is playing out of the paint on offense. If we're going to continue firing up 40 threes a game like we did this past season we really should be working harder to extend some of those possessions.

 

[twslam07]

There's no Keita Bates-Diop on this list though, who easily meets some of the criteria your useing to process of eliminate this down..

I was a big fan of his coming out of Ohio State and was wanting the Kings to target him in the 2nd but no way am I investing in him/banking on him to be our starting PF. Low cost swing? Sure.

 

[Ozymandias]

I was a big fan of his coming out of Ohio State and was wanting the Kings to target him in the 2nd but no way am I investing in him/banking on him to be our starting PF. Low cost swing? Sure.

And yet players who arent really even suited to play PF are ones you'd bank on/invest in...

 

[twslam07]

For those who want John Collins... are you aware that Collins has, since his 5 year $125 million contract kicked in two years ago, shot 416 three point shots and made 32.2% of them? For a player who gets most of his value on offense by spacing the floor he's not doing a very good job of actually converting those looks. If we go out and get John Collins, this is our team for the next 3 years. I see John Collins as too much of a gamble given his salary and his performance trending in the wrong direction.

I like the idea of Christian Wood more than Jerami Grant or John Collins. His shooting has been more consistent and he has the size and mobility to compliment Domantas Sabonis and occasionally sub in for him as well. He doesn't hunt shots as much as Jerami Grant either. My biggest worry with him is that he's been a below average offensive rebounder and I really would like to see us get someone at that PF spot who is at least average in that area considering how often Domantas is playing out of the paint on offense. If we're going to continue firing up 40 threes a game like we did this past season we really should be working harder to extend some of those possessions.

I mean it’s really just this past season that is tanking that %. I think combining them is a bit disingenuous. He was 36.4% 2 seasons ago and 40% 3 and 4 seasons ago. And through this entire 4 season duration, he’s shot 79%-83% from the FT line. I’m not too worried about his 3PT shot but understand why others may be considering the season he just had.

I also disagree with the comment that this is the team for the next 3 years, you still have a lot of tradeable assets (as I posted above) to improve the team, find better fits, etc.

As a 2nd option on POR, Grant averaged less shot attempts and had a lower USG% than Wood. I wouldn’t consider either of them to be the epitome of unselfish basketball but I tend to lean more toward Wood than Grant in this case.

The rebounding is definitely a concern with Grant. You’d have to rely on Murray improving or having a Josh Hart, Bruce Brown, Royce O’Neale, etc. type of player at SG to makeup for it.

 

[twslam07]

And yet players who arent really even suited to play PF are ones you'd bank on/invest in...

Anunoby, Grant, Isaac, and Anderson?

 

[midtowner]

I realize Collins shooting numbers have fallen. And that’s why he’s available.

I think in a more equal opportunity offense, he’ll shoot better (but I could be wrong). His ability to put pressure on the rim is where I think he could really help this team.

 

[Ozymandias]

Anunoby, Grant, Isaac, and Anderson?

Isaac literally has a career threatening injury every season, he's like totally insane too, he actually makes me nervous... Anunoby will cost SOOOOOO MUCH, every indication is the Raptors are trying to ask way too much for him.... Grant is way too short, your gonna rely on him to guard KD and Michael Porter Jr and Jabari Smith?

Kyle Anderson is way too anchored to the ground we need someone light on their feet whos got long arms... Sabonis is our Kyle Anderson just at the C position..

 

[twslam07]

Isaac literally has a career threatening injury every season, he's like totally insane too, he actually makes me nervous... Anunoby will cost SOOOOOO MUCH, every indication is the Raptors are trying to ask way too much for him.... Grant is way too short, your gonna rely on him to guard KD and Michael Porter Jr and Jabari Smith?

Kyle Anderson is way too anchored to the ground we need someone light on their feet whos got long arms... Sabonis is our Kyle Anderson just at the C position..

Goal posts are moving…

You said…

And yet players who arent really even suited to play PF are ones you'd bank on/invest in...

…which means you think the players I’m recommending aren’t suitable to play PF (e.g., they should play C, SF, etc.).

I then go on to clarify who I was suggesting would be good fits at PF (Anunoby, Grant, Isaac, and Anderson).

You then reply by not stating any arguments for why Anunoby, Grant, Isaac, and Anderson are not suitable to play PF except for Grant (“way too short”).

So I’ll say this…Grant has a 8’11” standing reach and a 7’2.75” wingspan so yes I think he has plenty of size and length to man the PF spot and matchup with guys like Durant, Porter, Smith, etc.

Now that we have clarified Grant’s great size/length, do you care to comment on why you think Anunoby, Isaac, and Anderson aren’t suitable to play PF or would you prefer to retract the previous statement?

 

[hrdboild]

I mean it’s really just this past season that is tanking that %. I think combining them is a bit disingenuous. He was 36.4% 2 seasons ago and 40% 3 and 4 seasons ago. And through this entire 4 season duration, he’s shot 79%-83% from the FT line. I’m not too worried about his 3PT shot but understand why others may be considering the season he just had.

I also disagree with the comment that this is the team for the next 3 years, you still have a lot of tradeable assets (as I posted above) to improve the team, find better fits, etc.

As a 2nd option on POR, Grant averaged less shot attempts and had a lower USG% than Wood. I wouldn’t consider either of them to be the epitome of unselfish basketball but I tend to lean more toward Wood than Grant in this case.

The rebounding is definitely a concern with Grant. You’d have to rely on Murray improving or having a Josh Hart, Bruce Brown, Royce O’Neale, etc. type of player at SG to makeup for it.

We can take sub-sets of data however we like to prove our point I suppose but I just picked the last two years because it's a large enough sample size to warrant concern. League average from three was up to 36.1% this season. Granted that number is buoyed by elite guys like Steph shooting a huge volume but any way you slice it 32% is poor for a guy who has a reputation as a shooter.

Collins has shot around 40% from three in 2 out of 6 seasons (from 2019 to 2021). Both were slightly truncated seasons (64 games and 72 games, respectively). His playoff average is 35.4%. The data suggests his career average of 35.6% is close to what we could expect in the aggregate over the course of his contract but are we going to get a 29% shooter next season or a 40% shooter? That's too much variance for me to comfortably rely on. And I think we should weigh the recent results at least a little bit more than what he did 3 years ago.

EDIT: To clarify... What concerns me the most is really the contract. It's just large enough that a small dip in performance makes Collins just as untradeable as Richaun Holmes became. He may already be -- we'll see if Atlanta finds any takers. Context plays a role in my reaction here. Three days after we moved our first round pick for cap space, the prospect of immediately pouring it into John Collins makes me queasy.

 

[twslam07]

We can take sub-sets of data however we like to prove our point I suppose but I just picked the last two years because it's a large enough sample size to warrant concern. League average from three was up to 36.1% this season. Granted that number is buoyed by elite guys like Steph shooting a huge volume but any way you slice it 32% is poor for a guy who has a reputation as a shooter.

Collins has shot around 40% from three in 2 out of 6 seasons (from 2019 to 2021). Both were slightly truncated seasons (64 games and 72 games, respectively). His playoff average is 35.4%. The data suggests his career average of 35.6% is close to what we could expect in the aggregate over the course of his contract but are we going to get a 29% shooter next season or a 40% shooter? That's too much variance for me to comfortably rely on. And I think we should weigh the recent results at least a little bit more than what he did 3 years ago.

EDIT: To clarify... What concerns me the most is really the contract. It's just large enough that a small dip in performance makes Collins just as untradeable as Richaun Holmes became. He may already be -- we'll see if Atlanta finds any takers. Context plays a role in my reaction here. Three days after we moved our first round pick for cap space, the prospect of immediately pouring it into John Collins makes me queasy.

Yeah I’d feel less comfortable if he hasn’t already done it for multiple seasons and if he was only like a 70-75% FT shooter, I’d feel even less comfortable.

Couple that with his age, how he’s been iced out a bit in ATL, constantly being talked about in trade rumors, etc. and he seems like he could be a good buy low candidate.

I also don’t see him as just a floor spacer. I could see a lot of high/low action with Sabonis at the elbow. Collins is a great lob threat and I could see Sabonis taking advantage of that to get him some good looks (while Sabonis sucks out the opposing team’s C).

Then when Sabonis is off the court, you can easily put him in the PnR with Fox or Monk as he can be a solid PnP threat or as a roll man with his verticality.

 

[Ozymandias]

Goal posts are moving…

You said…

…which means you think the players I’m recommending aren’t suitable to play PF (e.g., they should play C, SF, etc.).

I then go on to clarify who I was suggesting would be good fits at PF (Anunoby, Grant, Isaac, and Anderson).

You then reply by not stating any arguments for why Anunoby, Grant, Isaac, and Anderson are not suitable to play PF except for Grant (“way too short”).

So I’ll say this…Grant has a 8’11” standing reach and a 7’2.75” wingspan so yes I think he has plenty of size and length to man the PF spot and matchup with guys like Durant, Porter, Smith, etc.

Now that we have clarified Grant’s great size/length, do you care to comment on why you think Anunoby, Isaac, and Anderson aren’t suitable to play PF or would you prefer to retract the previous statement?

What? Some of the players on your list arent realistic at all.. Jarred Vanderbilt for example, a player I was screaming from the hilltops 'we should trade for Vanderbilt' at the deadline, he's signed with the Lakers until next offseason whys he there and Keita Bates Diop isnt suitable? its madness

Some of those options are put all your eggs in one basket options(Anunoby, Grant), whos to say we cant get HB or a guy like Wood at a reasonable price and then we get Keita Bates Diop as a backup?He's got a 7'2 wingspan he's improved every season, hes 230lbs and shoots 40% from 3, would seem to stack up rather well vs many options on that long list, he can damn sure defend on the perimeter better than most of em.. filling in platoons instead of swing for 1 big money player leaves us more ready to deal with injuries. I'd figure options like that are now far more realistic with Holmes off the books, its why I bumped this thread.

The idea in your post that I didnt rebuke for example why Kyle Anderson isnt a good match, is false. I'll restate - Kyle Anderson is far too anchored to the ground, meaning he's not a great match next to Sabonis. teams at times will run layup drills vs us, its not a match defensively we need players who are light on their feet and long with recovery speed, Anderson is a solid and shrewd but slow footed player.


JERAMI GRANT WANTS 150 MILLION OVER 5 YEARS... I need to explain to you why on court that might not be ideal? thats very very risky.. HArrison Barnes was very patient for us this season, to just plug in these players who are high volume from other teams, seems like a potential chemistry disaster brewing. Christian Wood to me represents a much less risky option for the Kings. Anunoby is more risky to me too because of what we'd have to pay to get him and then pay to pay him, and then multiply that risk factor by 100 for Jonathan "Mr Glass" Isaac because of his injury history.

Jerami Grant is a most excellent player I was firm he was a 1st rd talent, always been a fan of his game, he's also almost always been underpaid in the NBA given his production, do we really want to be the first team to pay him what he's worth, big big dollars? I'm unsure, I felt much better for example giving that type of money to Bradley Beal.

 

[SacTownKid]

For those who want John Collins... are you aware that Collins has, since his 5 year $125 million contract kicked in two years ago, shot 416 three point shots and made 32.2% of them? For a player who gets most of his value on offense by spacing the floor he's not doing a very good job of actually converting those looks. If we go out and get John Collins, this is our team for the next 3 years. I see John Collins as too much of a gamble given his salary and his performance trending in the wrong direction.

I like the idea of Christian Wood more than Jerami Grant or John Collins. His shooting has been more consistent and he has the size and mobility to compliment Domantas Sabonis and occasionally sub in for him as well. He doesn't hunt shots as much as Jerami Grant either. My biggest worry with him is that he's been a below average offensive rebounder and I really would like to see us get someone at that PF spot who is at least average in that area considering how often Domantas is playing out of the paint on offense. If we're going to continue firing up 40 threes a game like we did this past season we really should be working harder to extend some of those possessions.

Collins is still pretty good one on one and his above the rim play would help. Also he should be gettable for almost nothing from the sound of it. Those combined with his deal already having a few seasons knocked off makes him a decent gamble.

As for Wood, value wise I wouldn't mind it. The combo of he and Murray and Sasha could be the slowest SF/PF combination in the league though. I still think it could be a worth a shot with the scoring potential though.

 

[See_Hanks]

I don’t think he’s a good fit. I don’t seem him buying into our brand of unselfish basketball on the offensive end and he’s not close to the defender we’d want at SF/PF to pair with Sabonis long term. Blocking a shot or two a game doesn’t equate to him being a net positive on the defensive end.

Whatever upgrade/change we make to the starting lineup, it needs to be someone who is at least considerably better defensively than Huerter or Barnes (I’m assuming Murray is locked in as a long time starter going forward) while at the same time not sacrificing the spacing we have around Fox and Sabonis.

That’s why I posted this trade: https://community.kingsfans.com/threads/bkn-team-x-sac-2023-off-season.89145/

Both Royce O’Neale and Grant Williams would be defensive upgrades over Huerter and Barnes in the starting lineup and maintain our great spacing considering this is how each of them are shooting this season:

• Williams: .414 3P% on 4.8 3PA (per 36 min)
• O’Neale: .402 3P% on 6.0 3PA (per 36 min)
  Huerter: .392 3P% on 8.0 3PA (per 36 min)
• Barnes: .374 3P% on 4.9 3PA (per 36 min)

Then you consider the fact that a bench of Monk, Huerter, Barnes, and FA C (Noel, Plumlee, etc.) would likely be the best bench in the league and you got the makings of an extremely solid and complementary team.

PG - Fox / Monk
SG - O’Neale / Huerter
SF - Williams / Barnes
PF - Murray
C - Sabonis / Noel

I don't think Willaims, and O'Neale are upgrades. IMO they are downgrades, and just eating minutes of better places who wouldn't get much PT behind them, including Monk who would lose out the most.

 

[twslam07]

What? The players on your list arent realistic at all.. Jarred Vanderbilt for example is signed with the Lakers until next offseason whys he there and Keita Bates Diop isnt suitable? its madness

Some of those options are put all your eggs in one basket options, whos to say we cant get HB or a guy like Wood at a reasonable price and then we get Keita Bates Diop as a backup?He's got a 7'2 wingspan he's improved every season, hes 230lbs and shoots 40% from 3, would seem to stack up rather well vs many options on that long list.. That type thing where we fill in platoons instead of swing for 1 big money player where we have depth is vastly superior to spending way more for Anunoby or Grant, I'd figure options like that are now far more realistic with Holmes off the books, its why I bumped this thread.

The idea in your post that I didnt rebuke for example why Kyle Anderson isnt a good match, is false. I'll restate it, Kyle Anderson is far too anchored to the ground, meaning he's not a great match next to Sabonis. teams at times will run layup drills vs us, its not a match defensively we need players who are light on their feet and long with recovery speed, Anderson is a solid and shrewd but slow footed player.


JERAMI GRANT WANTS 150 MILLION OVER 5 YEARS... I need to explain to you why on court that might not be ideal? thats very very risky.. HArrison Barnes was very patient for us this season, to just plug in these players who are high volume from other teams, seems like a potential disaster brewing. Christian Wood to me represents a much less risky option for the Kings. Anunoby is more risky to me too because of what we'd have to pay to get him and then pay to pay him, and then multiply that risk factor by 100 for Jonathan "Mr Glass" Isaac because of his injury history.

Again, you moved the goal posts. You essentially made the claim that Anunoby, Grant, Isaac, and Anderson are not suitable to play PF. Can you explain to me why they are more suitable to play C, SF, SG, or PG vs. PF? I think you realize that you can’t make that argument which is why you’re now trying to move the goal posts and steer the conversation in a different direction but prove me wrong…








Now if you want to have a discussion around why Anunoby, Grant, Isaac, and Anderson are not good fits next to Sabonis or that they are unrealistic targets, that’s fine. We can have that conversation. However, that’s a separate discussion than the one you initiated with me.

But let’s go ahead and have that conversation…first of all, you mentioned “your list.” If you interpreted what I wrote correctly, you’d understand it’s not “my list.” It’s a list of players that have been discussed by many posters here. There are many on that list that I wouldn’t touch with a 10 ft pole but I included them all in the overall analysis to be thorough and comprehensive. It seems you have mistakenly interpreted that I’d be happy with any one of those players on the Kings which is obviously not the case.

Secondly, I’m not sure why you’re dumbfounded by the fact that Vanderbilt is on the list. You do realize that the Kings are able to make a trade for Vanderbilt, right? Similar to Anunoby, Siakam, Isaac, Okongwu, Collins, Finney-Smith, Harris, etc. Posters here have not only been discussing players who are FAs this year. They’ve also been discussing potential trade targets.

You talk about spending the majority of our cap space on one big FA as a bad thing since it’d be more prudent to divvy that cap up across 3 FAs in your scenario (Wood, Barnes, & Bates-Diop) and that would leave us with a rotation of…

PG - Fox / Mitchell
SG - Huerter / Monk / Jones
SF - Murray / Edwards
PF - Barnes / Bates-Diop / Slawson
C - Sabonis / Wood

…but we have two ways of adding solid depth without having to spend our cap space. Lyles proved to be a valuable rotation piece and his cap hold is only $3.4 mil. Then you have the room exception that is worth $7.7 mil. We could easily offer a big contract to someone like Grant, use our cap hold with Lyles to go above the cap, and then throw our room excretion on someone like Sasha. That’s gives you…

PG - Fox / Mitchell
SG - Huerter / Monk / Jones
SF - Murray / Edwards
PF - Grant / Sasha / Slawson
C - Sabonis / Lyles

Seems like the depth is comparable while also getting the better fit at PF that we’re looking for. Now if Grant wants some outrageous amount then of course I’m not on board (just like if Toronto wants some sort of outrageous return for Anunoby in a trade).

We have little insight into what these teams are asking for in regard to trades and what these players are asking for in regard to FA, but we can at least talk about who would be good hypothetical fits with the current core and Anunoby/Grant fit the type of player we’re looking for at PF much better than someone like Wood.

 

[Ozymandias]

Again, you moved the goal posts. You essentially made the claim that Anunoby, Grant, Isaac, and Anderson are not suitable to play PF. Can you explain to me why they are more suitable to play C, SF, SG, or PG vs. PF? I think you realize that you can’t make that argument which is why you’re now trying to move the goal posts and steer the conversation in a different direction but prove me wrong…








Now if you want to have a discussion around why Anunoby, Grant, Isaac, and Anderson are not good fits next to Sabonis or that they are unrealistic targets, that’s fine. We can have that conversation. However, that’s a separate discussion than the one you initiated with me.

But let’s go ahead and have that conversation…first of all, you mentioned “your list.” If you interpreted what I wrote correctly, you’d understand it’s not “my list.” It’s a list of players that have been discussed by many posters here. There are many on that list that I wouldn’t touch with a 10 ft pole but I included them all in the overall analysis to be thorough and comprehensive. It seems you have mistakenly interpreted that I’d be happy with any one of those players on the Kings which is obviously not the case.

Secondly, I’m not sure why you’re dumbfounded by the fact that Vanderbilt is on the list. You do realize that the Kings are able to make a trade for Vanderbilt, right? Similar to Anunoby, Siakam, Isaac, Okongwu, Collins, Finney-Smith, Harris, etc. Posters here have not only been discussing players who are FAs this year. They’ve also been discussing potential trade targets.

You talk about spending the majority of our cap space on one big FA as a bad thing since it’d be more prudent to divvy that cap up across 3 FAs in your scenario (Wood, Barnes, & Bates-Diop) and that would leave us with a rotation of…

PG - Fox / Mitchell
SG - Huerter / Monk / Jones
SF - Murray / Edwards
PF - Barnes / Bates-Diop / Slawson
C - Sabonis / Wood

…but we have two ways of adding solid depth without having to spend our cap space. Lyles proved to be a valuable rotation piece and his cap hold is only $3.4 mil. Then you have the room exception that is worth $7.7 mil. We could easily offer a big contract to someone like Grant, use our cap hold with Lyles to go above the cap, and then throw our room excretion on someone like Sasha. That’s gives you…

PG - Fox / Mitchell
SG - Huerter / Monk / Jones
SF - Murray / Edwards
PF - Grant / Sasha / Slawson
C - Sabonis / Lyles

Seems like the depth is comparable while also getting the better fit at PF that we’re looking for. Now if Grant wants some outrageous amount then of course I’m not on board (just like if Toronto wants some sort of outrageous return for Anunoby in a trade).

We have little insight into what these teams are asking for in regard to trades and what these players are asking for in regard to FA, but we can at least talk about who would be good hypothetical fits with the current core and Anunoby/Grant fit the type of player we’re looking for at PF much better than someone like Wood.

In the event they resign Lyles, Len and Barnes, and add Wood and Bates-Diop.

Fox - Mitchell - Monk - Jones
Huerter - Monk - Jones - Murray/Mitchell
Murray - KBD - Barnes - Huerter/Jones/Edwards
Barnes - Wood - KBD/Murray/Lyles - Slawson
Sabonis - Lyles - Wood - Len

In this scenario look at our 5 man bench unit

Mitchell - Monk - KBD - Wood - Lyles thats a MASSIVE upgrade from last seasons bench... Thats 4 excellent 3pt shooters around Davion Mitchell, and we add a ton of length.... These other scenarios you guys are talking spending big money for more lateral type of moves I swear.. Where we pay a good bit more for possibly a marginal upgrade at the starting PF spot and have the same firepower off the bench basically. Our Rookie Jones is the 11th man in this scenario, this is crazy unrealistically deep I think, he'll end up much higher next season, but again this is a scenario where Barnes and Wood are gotten for cheap.

Wood and KBD dont want super long term contracts in these scenarios they are looking to come here win get the job done and vie for even bigger deals within a few summers, were a spot that could benefit from them doing such things.. So these players will cost money but its not gonna be the long term contracts which got us in trouble with Holmes.

This scenario allows for us to not have to use Fox and Sabonis so much too.. In games we get leads our bench might be able to put teams away all by themselves.. IDK this is a cupboard is loaded scenario to me.. This is like late in the season when teams are injured and tanking our bench will be better than the worst teams starters..

 

[iowamcnabb]

Ozy, the tone you use in some of your posts could be interpreted as a personal attack. It’s possible you don’t mean it as such but I think you can get your point of view across without essentially calling people an idiot.

 

[twslam07]

In the event they resign Lyles, Len and Barnes, and add Wood and Bates-Diop.

Fox - Mitchell - Monk - Jones
Huerter - Monk - Jones - Murray/Mitchell
Murray - KBD - Barnes - Huerter/Jones/Edwards
Barnes - Wood - KBD/Murray/Lyles - Slawson
Sabonis - Lyles - Wood - Len

In this scenario look at our 5 man bench unit

Mitchell - Monk - KBD - Wood - Lyles thats a MASSIVE upgrade from last seasons bench... Thats 4 excellent 3pt shooters around Davion Mitchell, and we add a ton of length.... These other scenarios you guys are talking spending big money for more lateral type of moves I swear.. Where we pay a good bit more for possibly a marginal upgrade at the starting PF spot and have the same firepower off the bench basically. Our Rookie Jones is the 11th man in this scenario, this is crazy unrealistically deep I think, he'll end up much higher next season, but again this is a scenario where Barnes and Wood are gotten for cheap.

Wood and KBD dont want super long term contracts in these scenarios they are looking to come here win get the job done and vie for even bigger deals within a few summers, were a spot that could benefit from them doing such things.. So these players will cost money but its not gonna be the long term contracts which got us in trouble with Holmes.

This scenario allows for us to not have to use Fox and Sabonis so much too.. In games we get leads our bench might be able to put teams away all by themselves.. IDK this is a cupboard is loaded scenario to me.. This is like late in the season when teams are injured and tanking our bench will be better than the worst teams starters..

You keep avoiding the question so I’ll ask for a 3rd time…can you explain to me why Anunoby, Grant, Isaac, & Anderson are more suitable to play C, SF, SG, or PG vs. PF?





As for the team you have assembled (assuming in your hypothetical that everyone would be willing to sign for cheap and that the Kings wouldn’t sign Sasha who’ve they reportedly already made an offer to), can you breakdown what the minute distribution would be for such a team? Below is the mpg for each of those players last season:

1. Sabonis = 34.6 min
2. Fox = 33.4 min
3. Barnes = 32.5 min
4. Murray = 29.8 min
5. Huerter = 29.4 min
6. Wood = 25.9 min
7. Monk = 22.3 min
8. Bates-Diop = 21.7 min
9. Mitchell = 18.1 min
10. Lyles = 16.9 min

That’s a total of 264.6 min. You only have 240 min in a given game (assuming no OT). How do you plan to cut 24.6 min? Who’s minutes are getting reduced in your hypothetical situation?

This is one of the major reasons why I’d prefer adding 1 great player vs. two solid players. We already have solid depth and the ability to add more by bringing Sasha aboard via the room exception. If we continue to prioritize depth, you’re going to be left with some of that money going to players who get very few mins or are out of the rotation completely. We don’t want another Holmes situation where we are wasting $12 mil on a player who gets very few minutes.

If you add a guy like Grant, you could have a clean minute distribution like…

PG - Fox (34) / Mitchell (14)
SG - Huerter (18) / Monk (26) / Mitchell (4)
SF - Murray (30) / Huerter (10) / Sasha (8)
PF - Grant (32) / Sasha (10) / Lyles (6)
C - Sabonis (34) / Lyles (14)

Fox = 34 min
Sabonis = 34 min
Grant = 32 min
Murray = 30 min
Huerter = 28 min
Monk = 26 min
Lyles = 20 min
Mitchell = 18 min
Sasha = 18 min

Then you’d have Jones in your 10th man role getting spot minutes, playing when injuries occur, etc. and you’d add a big, defensive C to play in certain matchups behind Sabonis when it’s called for.


Look, I don’t think anyone is saying we’d be a worse team if we replaced all of our “junk” minutes with a guy like Wood. The question is how much better would we actually be?

We were already the 1st ranked offense in the league last year and the 24th ranked defense. I think it’s pretty clear how we can make significant strides as a team (e.g., improve the defense without sacrificing spacing/offense). Wood is not the impact defender we need to bring our defense into that 11th-20th ranking considering the defensive talent we have at the other positions.

I have a hard time seeing how doubling down on firepower is the way to push this team over the top and become a contender. I’d much rather target players who can really help our defense while at the same time maintaining our elite offense, and yes those types of players cost a lot of money but there is a reason they cost that much.

 

[dude12]

Give Lyles the same minutes that a hypothetical Wood would get here and we are a better team. Lyles isn’t brain dead