Kings @ Wolves Game Thread
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I personally think that I have a very valid point to mitigate Pedja's perfomance to a certain point but I will not bother now. As you've pointed out, his petulence - especially in 4th quarter - is inexusable as it was obvious. Despite RA pulling him off for all of 20 seconds (if that) to send him a message he came back and carried on with it. UN-effin'-believable.
Been lurking for a month and finally decided to post. Just got validation only yesterday else I woulda started off under happier circumstances (i.e. before a loss). Of course this means I start unleashing criticism like the several dozen other know-it-alls on this board (or any board for that matter).
C-Webb: Obvious he was looking for a statement game. The guy wanted to be the man against a championship quality team. Unfortunately, his body won't let him be that man anymore. Nice effort Webb, but time to come back down to earth. Those jumpers woulda went in if you had those 3 extra inches back.
Now Peja... I don't understand how so many people can stick up for this guy? It makes me think if these fans are really Kings fans or just Peja fans? If Peja left tomorrow would these "fans" still be Kings fans or would they be <insert Peja's new team> fans? He demands a trade and has stuck to his demand through the months. I knew from the start of the season that he wasn't going to bring it all to the table. He was just going to bring enough to satisfy his contractual obligations and save his efforts and health for when he gets traded. He'll keep his shooting numbers up to not diminish his value but he's definitely not going to put in any extra hustle or rebounding. That kind of stuff can get you hurt. This game has just been a microcosm of his psychosis (for lack of a better word).
It's a shame too cause I really liked Peja before this season... But until the guy shows and/or says he really wants to be a King, he's half-dead to me already. I don't want anyone on my team to shoot for his stats rather than for the team's benefit. Maybe this is an unfair perception caused by the Peja homers, though.
So with this self-inflicted sluggishness, it's not surprising he's not getting as many shots. He doesn't make the extra effort to get more space. Plus, he can't create his own shot so his shot attempts won't be high in the first place. You can't just throw it to him like you do Mcgrady and have him go at it. He's a shooter. Maybe the best shooter in the league, but that's the extent of his game.
Webber played stupid last year coming off an injury. It took him a long time to figure out his limitations and he's definitely gotten smarter about it this year (cept for this game). But in the end I'm just bashing a guy who really wants to win and gives the Kings everything he's got on 1 leg. Meanwhile Peja already has 1 leg out the door.
C-Webb: Obvious he was looking for a statement game. The guy wanted to be the man against a championship quality team. Unfortunately, his body won't let him be that man anymore. Nice effort Webb, but time to come back down to earth. Those jumpers woulda went in if you had those 3 extra inches back.
Now Peja... I don't understand how so many people can stick up for this guy? It makes me think if these fans are really Kings fans or just Peja fans? If Peja left tomorrow would these "fans" still be Kings fans or would they be <insert Peja's new team> fans? He demands a trade and has stuck to his demand through the months. I knew from the start of the season that he wasn't going to bring it all to the table. He was just going to bring enough to satisfy his contractual obligations and save his efforts and health for when he gets traded. He'll keep his shooting numbers up to not diminish his value but he's definitely not going to put in any extra hustle or rebounding. That kind of stuff can get you hurt. This game has just been a microcosm of his psychosis (for lack of a better word).
It's a shame too cause I really liked Peja before this season... But until the guy shows and/or says he really wants to be a King, he's half-dead to me already. I don't want anyone on my team to shoot for his stats rather than for the team's benefit. Maybe this is an unfair perception caused by the Peja homers, though.
So with this self-inflicted sluggishness, it's not surprising he's not getting as many shots. He doesn't make the extra effort to get more space. Plus, he can't create his own shot so his shot attempts won't be high in the first place. You can't just throw it to him like you do Mcgrady and have him go at it. He's a shooter. Maybe the best shooter in the league, but that's the extent of his game.
Webber played stupid last year coming off an injury. It took him a long time to figure out his limitations and he's definitely gotten smarter about it this year (cept for this game). But in the end I'm just bashing a guy who really wants to win and gives the Kings everything he's got on 1 leg. Meanwhile Peja already has 1 leg out the door.
Ask Peja. I'm having trouble with "cause Vlade left". I'm still holding hope there's other reasons cause this would smash most of my respect for him as a professional athlete. Some people have said he's partly not bringing his full effort because if the Kings do real well this year without Vlade, it wouldn't have been seen as a bad decision (and therefore making Vlade look bad). I'm holding out hope Peja is not that petty. But I really don't believe him and Chris hate each other either.
The guy has also said "anywhere but here" so he obviously doesn't care that much about winning a championship, which is consistent with his playoff performances.
I say management should bribe the guy... up your hustle and rebounding and we'll guarantee a trade in the offseason. The alternative is settle up his personal issues but that is easier said than done and not really the business of a professional organization in the first place.
The guy has also said "anywhere but here" so he obviously doesn't care that much about winning a championship, which is consistent with his playoff performances.
I say management should bribe the guy... up your hustle and rebounding and we'll guarantee a trade in the offseason. The alternative is settle up his personal issues but that is easier said than done and not really the business of a professional organization in the first place.
I guess your theories about why Pedja is not performing are as good as next person's. We just don't know and I certainly hope that Pedja does know. However, ever from my "distance" I simply don't believe that it is "because Vlade left". If there was some sinister plot to make sure that Vlade is not retained and Pedja was privvy to it then yes, I could imagine how he would be resentfull and distrustfull of the organization. But we know for a fact that there was nothing even approaching that (from Vlade's interviews with both Serbian and US media). I also don't buy that "anywhere but here" BS. Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Petrie and the Kings save his career (when Skiles helped convince Pedja to move to US and have his leg surgically repaired afer breaking it in Greece)?
I see no reason for him to be that pissed of with the organization. Players - maybe. Adelman - possibly. Kings - how and why? And that is what really bothers me about Pedja's whole 'tude: "Give me my ball, I am going home".
To answer your previous question about Pedja fans/boosters: Most, if not all of us are native Serbs or Serbian-Americans/Canadians. To us (right or wrong) Pedja is almost like a national treasure and more then a sports "idol". Whether that approach is at all healthy and how it came to be is best not discussed here. With that out of the way, I can say with complete honesty and in absolute confidence that if Pedja leaves the Kings I will still be a Kings fan and I will still be a Pedja fan. I started following Kings bball because of Vlade and I still like Vlade but Lakers??? Come on... I can't even watch League Pass games when Kings are not on...
I see no reason for him to be that pissed of with the organization. Players - maybe. Adelman - possibly. Kings - how and why? And that is what really bothers me about Pedja's whole 'tude: "Give me my ball, I am going home".
To answer your previous question about Pedja fans/boosters: Most, if not all of us are native Serbs or Serbian-Americans/Canadians. To us (right or wrong) Pedja is almost like a national treasure and more then a sports "idol". Whether that approach is at all healthy and how it came to be is best not discussed here. With that out of the way, I can say with complete honesty and in absolute confidence that if Pedja leaves the Kings I will still be a Kings fan and I will still be a Pedja fan. I started following Kings bball because of Vlade and I still like Vlade but Lakers??? Come on... I can't even watch League Pass games when Kings are not on...
I'll concede to your info on Vlade since I didn't look into that in-depth, and like I said, didn't want to believe in it in the first place. However, the "anywhere but here" thing is real. Not BS. I can probably dig up the exact quote and I expect other people know what I'm talking about as well. He pretty much said that straight out in an interview. He didn't care where he went. He wanted a "fresh start". Maybe he's changed his stance since then about particular teams, but he did say those words.
I kind of suspected the whole thing about Serbs and Pedja. It helps me understand some of the commentary. I hope those people also understand that a team like the Kings is a much better fit for him than most others in the league. I can't imagine Pedja doing well on teams that don't focus that much on the perimeter game or ones that go for those 80 point, grinding, defensive games. A lot of the observations about his individual accomplishments and how to improve them come at the expense of the Kings' game as a whole. The team's success has always been focused on several points of attack and group cohesion on the offense. The more you up Pedja's focus, the more it becomes like a 1-man team such as the Sixers or Magic of last year. The reason Pedja gets all those good looks and that high scoring stat is because teams have to respect the offensive capabilities of the other Kings as well. If Pedja becomes the focal point to the point where his teammates start to deteriorate, it will hurt his game and the King's game. He'll start getting doubleteamed cause no one will respect Bibby's or Webb's shots.
I kind of suspected the whole thing about Serbs and Pedja. It helps me understand some of the commentary. I hope those people also understand that a team like the Kings is a much better fit for him than most others in the league. I can't imagine Pedja doing well on teams that don't focus that much on the perimeter game or ones that go for those 80 point, grinding, defensive games. A lot of the observations about his individual accomplishments and how to improve them come at the expense of the Kings' game as a whole. The team's success has always been focused on several points of attack and group cohesion on the offense. The more you up Pedja's focus, the more it becomes like a 1-man team such as the Sixers or Magic of last year. The reason Pedja gets all those good looks and that high scoring stat is because teams have to respect the offensive capabilities of the other Kings as well. If Pedja becomes the focal point to the point where his teammates start to deteriorate, it will hurt his game and the King's game. He'll start getting doubleteamed cause no one will respect Bibby's or Webb's shots.
Just to clarify: I called BS on Pedja not on you/your posting. Pedja's petulent BS that I do not believe for a moment. He said and he was BS-ing. He also strongly denied any interest in the Bulls which was attributed to him after making positive comments about Chicago and Skiles (his old coach from Greece). I don't believe for the moment that he would be a happy Bull.
Agreed. Pedja is best suited to Princeton offence or similar and he developed fast track (compared to for example Drazen Petrovic who languished in Portland or Radmanovic in Seattle until this year). In fact, I don't really care for NBA style basketball other then Kings and a few other teams who can move the ball to find an open man. That is maybe why so many of us "Pedja fans" are so antagonistic. We know this is it, this is as good as it gets, but...
Agreed. Pedja is best suited to Princeton offence or similar and he developed fast track (compared to for example Drazen Petrovic who languished in Portland or Radmanovic in Seattle until this year). In fact, I don't really care for NBA style basketball other then Kings and a few other teams who can move the ball to find an open man. That is maybe why so many of us "Pedja fans" are so antagonistic. We know this is it, this is as good as it gets, but...
Hogwash...pure and total bull****...you've pretty much bashed both of the Kings best players without providing any backup for your take. Too bad you didn't know yesterday that you'd been approved YESTERDAY or you could have started off on a better footing.
Please withdraw your pointing stick and try again. Honest, I'll give your posts another tryout before I hit the "ignore" button.
Your take on Webber is absurd, your assumption that anyone who is a fan of Peja must be Serbian is racist...your posts are extremely offensive and I sincerely hope that I don't run up against another one of them.
KK!
Please withdraw your pointing stick and try again. Honest, I'll give your posts another tryout before I hit the "ignore" button.
Your take on Webber is absurd, your assumption that anyone who is a fan of Peja must be Serbian is racist...your posts are extremely offensive and I sincerely hope that I don't run up against another one of them.
KK!
whata finish.....
* throws self down the stairs*
( oh wait i don't have stairs anymore )
man oh man, i had the "pleasure" of listening to that 4th QT on the radio, i should have stuck to the spongebob squarepants jokes the kids i were babysitting were telling me...
these kinds of losses REALLY tick me off, and REALLY ruin my mood. to be so good for so long in the game, and to just give it up.... yucko!
and what also ticks me off is the pacers are on a huge losing streak, and are due to win sometime. IT BETTER NOT BE TOMMORROW!!!!!
* throws self down the stairs*
( oh wait i don't have stairs anymore
) man oh man, i had the "pleasure" of listening to that 4th QT on the radio, i should have stuck to the spongebob squarepants jokes the kids i were babysitting were telling me...
these kinds of losses REALLY tick me off, and REALLY ruin my mood. to be so good for so long in the game, and to just give it up.... yucko!
and what also ticks me off is the pacers are on a huge losing streak, and are due to win sometime. IT BETTER NOT BE TOMMORROW!!!!!
bozzwell said:
In fact, I don't really care for NBA style basketball other then Kings and a few other teams who can move the ball to find an open man. That is maybe why so many of us "Pedja fans" are so antagonistic. We know this is it, this is as good as it gets, but...
Not sure about the Webber part, but I do not feel one bit offended about Serbian Pedja fans part. There's a lot of truth to it; although I can careless now whether Pedja is Serbian, American, Croatian, Kazak, or Afghan, the reason why I started following him was because Sacramento Kings was the only team with 2 Serbs in it.
Don't you worry about the feelings of the Serbs, we've been to a lot of really nasty things in the last 15 years and calling this little post racist is ridicilous.
Don't you worry about the feelings of the Serbs, we've been to a lot of really nasty things in the last 15 years and calling this little post racist is ridicilous.
The problem is not the Princeton offence, nor the "we need to motivate Peja" thing...offence works but you have to use it to make it work, you just don't run this team by overplaying pick'n'roll...
First of all, the 4th period speaks volumes, and I too will say it was mainly offense or to be more exact the lack of its production that decided the game, despite the obvious defensive lapses on Cassell and Hassell and the +35 points delivered...
That Adelman blunder with Webb at c and Peja at pf was just too awful. You never ever do those kinds of experiments on a team such as Wolves, they (as proven last night) are smart enough to take advantage of those and take the momentum away. I realize the foul trouble but it Adelman had Songaila, it was a logical thing to do...
Peja had what, 10 1st qt points on 4-5? Nowitzki had 12 of those in Houston I believe...and though I'm not suggesting Peja would pull off a stunt similar to Dirk's, it is clear to me he was taken out of game by Bibby alone. I mean you're a playmaker, get your guys involved, spread the ball, enough with that pick'n'roll drag...
I don't see Adelman as the guilty party here, I'll try to simplify. The offence works, off course it works, and the big part of it goes to the freedom the guts executing it have, or have been granted by the coach. And you just have to live with it, some like it some don't but it is proven the guys need the "freedom" on the floor to make good things out of it...but you need to make sure your main guys are involved. And I don't mean you pulling their pants every now and then but just don't monopolize the flow of the offence,...again, as a playmaker, your priority is getting your main guys involved, make sure they get their touches, defensive lapses aside...
First of all, the 4th period speaks volumes, and I too will say it was mainly offense or to be more exact the lack of its production that decided the game, despite the obvious defensive lapses on Cassell and Hassell and the +35 points delivered...
That Adelman blunder with Webb at c and Peja at pf was just too awful. You never ever do those kinds of experiments on a team such as Wolves, they (as proven last night) are smart enough to take advantage of those and take the momentum away. I realize the foul trouble but it Adelman had Songaila, it was a logical thing to do...
Peja had what, 10 1st qt points on 4-5? Nowitzki had 12 of those in Houston I believe...and though I'm not suggesting Peja would pull off a stunt similar to Dirk's, it is clear to me he was taken out of game by Bibby alone. I mean you're a playmaker, get your guys involved, spread the ball, enough with that pick'n'roll drag...
I don't see Adelman as the guilty party here, I'll try to simplify. The offence works, off course it works, and the big part of it goes to the freedom the guts executing it have, or have been granted by the coach. And you just have to live with it, some like it some don't but it is proven the guys need the "freedom" on the floor to make good things out of it...but you need to make sure your main guys are involved. And I don't mean you pulling their pants every now and then but just don't monopolize the flow of the offence,...again, as a playmaker, your priority is getting your main guys involved, make sure they get their touches, defensive lapses aside...
Here's the difference betwen Peja an Dirk. Also the reason Peja is NOT a first-rate offensive weapon despite his prolificness.
I want to get Dirk a shot -- give him a scoring opportunity. I give Dirk the ball. Voila! Instant scoring opportunity. He doesn't have to be perfectly set up. Doesn't have to get the ball in one of his "spots". The whole court is his spot. And if he's not where he wants to be, he can move WITH the ball to get there.
Peja's game is different, and puts much more stress on his teammates. Oh Peja can throw up junk if you just throw him the ball just anyplace, but the percentages are NOT high. In order to use a Peja effectively, he almost has to be open BEFORE he gets the ball, or you have to run over and try to help him get open once he catches because he can't do it himself. Now the key that has made Peja more than just another Fred Hoiberg or Erik Piatkowski is that he works very hard to get open without the ball. He is essentially playing his offensive game off in space while the ball is elsewhere. By the time the ball gets to him, the shot is practically already made or not. He's just converting on his earlier effort.
But now you have certain teams who have Peja's number. They've got it figured out. And they have started playing Peja very physically without the ball. He plays his offense without the ball, and they have responded by playing defense on him without the ball. And it frustrates him, and it takes him out of rhythm. So now you have a quandry -- assuming that Peja keeps working, which he does NOT always do, do you as a team work even harder to get him shots? Or do you go to other people who aren't being as smothered? And when Peja quits working without the ball, it gets even worse -- its as if you threw the ball to Kobe (who does his offensive work WITH the ball) and he just stood there. What now?
The open Princeton-style offenses we run work very well for Peja, but NOT because they ever focus on feeding him. They work well because they focus on swinging the ball and feeding everyone, Peja included. Its a matter of feel, decision-making, who's open etc. But everybody's involved. An offense that actually was built around force-feeding Peja would be very hard to make work without grinding the whole thing to a halt. It would require far more effort to design a Peja-feeder offense than a Dirk-feeder offense, and even more still than a Kobe-feeder offense. A Kobe feeder offense looks like "throw Kobe the ball and let him bring it up court". Instant feed. A Dirk-feeder offense looks like "bring the ball up court, then throw to Dirk". Let him do the rest. A Peja-feeder offense looks like "bring the ball up court, run a play for Peja, set a staggered screen, throw ball to hopefully open Peja". MUCH more work for the team, and obviously takes away from what the other guys are doing. It only makes sense if you have a bunch of untalented saps out there who's primary skills are setting picks and playing defense. If you've got 5 talented starters, than by the time you're got all 5 of them invested in trying to set up Peja, its just not worth it. They can take care of the scoring themselves more efficiently than all of the work it takes to forcefeed Peja.
And so in the end you have a great offensive weapon in Peja who can be taken away because of his lack of ball skills and post game. We can't just throw it to Peja and say "go get 'em" without going through a tremendous amount of work to get him in the right spot and situation. And at some point, if the other team is really concentrating on making it SO hard to get it to him, you're better off looking elsewhere for an easier score.
I want to get Dirk a shot -- give him a scoring opportunity. I give Dirk the ball. Voila! Instant scoring opportunity. He doesn't have to be perfectly set up. Doesn't have to get the ball in one of his "spots". The whole court is his spot. And if he's not where he wants to be, he can move WITH the ball to get there.
Peja's game is different, and puts much more stress on his teammates. Oh Peja can throw up junk if you just throw him the ball just anyplace, but the percentages are NOT high. In order to use a Peja effectively, he almost has to be open BEFORE he gets the ball, or you have to run over and try to help him get open once he catches because he can't do it himself. Now the key that has made Peja more than just another Fred Hoiberg or Erik Piatkowski is that he works very hard to get open without the ball. He is essentially playing his offensive game off in space while the ball is elsewhere. By the time the ball gets to him, the shot is practically already made or not. He's just converting on his earlier effort.
But now you have certain teams who have Peja's number. They've got it figured out. And they have started playing Peja very physically without the ball. He plays his offense without the ball, and they have responded by playing defense on him without the ball. And it frustrates him, and it takes him out of rhythm. So now you have a quandry -- assuming that Peja keeps working, which he does NOT always do, do you as a team work even harder to get him shots? Or do you go to other people who aren't being as smothered? And when Peja quits working without the ball, it gets even worse -- its as if you threw the ball to Kobe (who does his offensive work WITH the ball) and he just stood there. What now?
The open Princeton-style offenses we run work very well for Peja, but NOT because they ever focus on feeding him. They work well because they focus on swinging the ball and feeding everyone, Peja included. Its a matter of feel, decision-making, who's open etc. But everybody's involved. An offense that actually was built around force-feeding Peja would be very hard to make work without grinding the whole thing to a halt. It would require far more effort to design a Peja-feeder offense than a Dirk-feeder offense, and even more still than a Kobe-feeder offense. A Kobe feeder offense looks like "throw Kobe the ball and let him bring it up court". Instant feed. A Dirk-feeder offense looks like "bring the ball up court, then throw to Dirk". Let him do the rest. A Peja-feeder offense looks like "bring the ball up court, run a play for Peja, set a staggered screen, throw ball to hopefully open Peja". MUCH more work for the team, and obviously takes away from what the other guys are doing. It only makes sense if you have a bunch of untalented saps out there who's primary skills are setting picks and playing defense. If you've got 5 talented starters, than by the time you're got all 5 of them invested in trying to set up Peja, its just not worth it. They can take care of the scoring themselves more efficiently than all of the work it takes to forcefeed Peja.
And so in the end you have a great offensive weapon in Peja who can be taken away because of his lack of ball skills and post game. We can't just throw it to Peja and say "go get 'em" without going through a tremendous amount of work to get him in the right spot and situation. And at some point, if the other team is really concentrating on making it SO hard to get it to him, you're better off looking elsewhere for an easier score.
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