[Game] Kings @ Warriors, 12/20/2021 7pm Pacific, 10pm Eastern

[ShastaKingsFan]

Good effort on a short handed night on a back to back, but Monte, my goodness you have to join the 21st century and gets some legit wings my friend.

I'm picturing Haliburton, with a good shooting guard, a couple good wings, a stretch 4, and pick and roll beast like Holmes

 

[miltonap]

Honestly not a horrible effort. Tied it at one point, Warriors are a tough team to play against, their off-ball movement is so heavy.

It'd be good to get some guys back, it'd be good to see what Doug could do with some more guys back

 

[Tetsujin]

the classic "Lets trade all our good players, because they can't play with another good play" trope. Kings fan special

Boogie/Tyreke/IT? That would never work!

 

[SacTownKid]

I'm picturing Haliburton, with a good shooting guard, a couple good wings, a stretch 4, and pick and roll beast like Holmes

Tyrese is going to need someone else that can draw double teams for sure. Teams aren't really sending their defense his way yet. I'm waiting to see that when teams start scouting him. That will tell you where you're at if changes are incoming.

 

[The_Jamal]

Boogie/Tyreke/IT? That would never work!

Steph/Klay/KD/Dray?? How many balls do they get? 4???

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Tyrese is going to need someone else that can draw double teams for sure. Teams aren't really sending their defense his way yet. I'm waiting to see that when teams start scouting him. That will tell you where you're at if changes are incoming.

Teams are already scouting him. The Warriors certainly did and ended up trying a couple different players on him

 

[SacTownKid]

Teams are already scouting him. The Warriors certainly did and ended up trying a couple different players on him

But they weren't loading their defense to him really. They did with Buddy at times.

 

[The_Jamal]

Tyrese is going to need someone else that can draw double teams for sure. Teams aren't really sending their defense his way yet. I'm waiting to see that when teams start scouting him. That will tell you where you're at if changes are incoming.

I think it's just a role adjustment. You can work Fox as your #1 scoring option, but he no longer needs to be the primary shot creator either. Run the offense through Hali, let Fox take the pressure off him.

 

[SacTownKid]

I think it's just a role adjustment. You can work Fox as your #1 scoring option, but he no longer needs to be the primary shot creator either. Run the offense through Hali, let Fox take the pressure off him.

That's the problem though, Fox off of Haliburton vs. Buddy is huge. Watch the last 2 games, Buddy is taking a lot of pressure off of the pick and roll with his presence. Fox won't draw that kind of attention.

 

[kb02]

I think it's just a role adjustment. You can work Fox as your #1 scoring option, but he no longer needs to be the primary shot creator either. Run the offense through Hali, let Fox take the pressure off him.

Conceptually, great. In practice, I doubt it. If you want Fox long term, the model is the 76ers with AI or the Russ only Okc teams.

 

[Tetsujin]

I think it's just a role adjustment. You can work Fox as your #1 scoring option, but he no longer needs to be the primary shot creator either. Run the offense through Hali, let Fox take the pressure off him.

The issue there is that we tried that earlier in the year and Tyrese responded by absolutely refusing to shoot the ball and passing out of possessions at the first possible opportunity.

It really seems like more of a mental hurdle than any actual schematic issue but it has been a problem.

 

[The_Jamal]

That's the problem though, Fox off of Haliburton vs. Buddy is huge. Watch the last 2 games, Buddy is taking a lot of pressure off of the pick and roll with his presence. Fox won't draw that kind of attention.

eh. Kind of? Buddy has been on fire for like 2 of 8 quarters and a total dud the other 6. If anything, I think getting Fox more C&S opportunties will help his 3p% as it's generally an easier shot than creating off your own bounce. And I'll keep beating this drum, but there's no such thing as too many ball-handlers/playmakers on the floor. It makes everything easier.

 

[SacTownKid]

The issue there is that we tried that earlier in the year and Tyrese responded by absolutely refusing to shoot the ball and passing out of possessions at the first possible opportunity.

It really seems like more of a mental hurdle than any actual schematic issue but it has been a problem.

Hence why building a team full of PG's is a bad idea, lol.

 

[Tetsujin]

Hence why building a team full of PG's is a bad idea, lol.

The thing is that we unfortunately only got to see the three point guard lineup for one game (which we won) before COVID sidelined 66% of our ball handlers.

 

[SacTownKid]

eh. Kind of? Buddy has been on fire for like 2 of 8 quarters and a total dud the other 6. If anything, I think getting Fox more C&S opportunties will help his 3p% as it's generally an easier shot than creating off your own bounce. And I'll keep beating this drum, but there's no such thing as too many ball-handlers/playmakers on the floor. It makes everything easier.

It's not just shooting, it's movement, it's position. Buddy is a SG, Fox is not. Trying to turn him into one hasn't worked yet, how many years do they want to try that one out? Then again, DC even with little coaching experience seems to have a knack already for making chicken salad with what he's got.

 

[The_Jamal]

The issue there is that we tried that earlier in the year and Tyrese responded by absolutely refusing to shoot the ball and passing out of possessions at the first possible opportunity.

It really seems like more of a mental hurdle than any actual schematic issue but it has been a problem.

Yeah, thankfully not my job to figure it out, but conceptually, every spot the offense has struggled the last 3 games is basically when players can't make shots off the Hali creation. I mean Metu has basically had to be the bail out guy for goodness sake. Getting Holmes back in the PnR will certainly help, but the team needs someone else who can break down the defense who btw can still get Hali C&S opportunities (which we certainly still want as a play design).

 

[SacTownKid]

The thing is that we unfortunately only got to see the three point guard lineup for one game (which we won) before COVID sidelined 66% of our ball handlers.

Yep, and Doug was the first out of the 3 coaches to have looked to buy in immediately.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

The issue there is that we tried that earlier in the year and Tyrese responded by absolutely refusing to shoot the ball and passing out of possessions at the first possible opportunity.

It really seems like more of a mental hurdle than any actual schematic issue but it has been a problem.

It's a fit issue. Haliburton needs a good outside shooter at the other guard position and he needs to have the ball in his hands to lead most of the offense

 

[The Effort Police]

the classic "Lets trade all our good players, because they can't play with another good play" trope. Kings fan special

I'm concerned about Fox's off-ball ability with that fit.

However, Fox being in hasn't really affected Hali's ability to make plays for others, just for himself.

He's doing it now as the only guard, but there's been far too many instances where he's deferred to Buddy or even TD. If Mitchell can look for his offense with a ball-dominant guard like Fox and gunners like Buddy and TD (and honestly, Mitchell could stand to dial it back too, if this is a problem with Fox it's going to be a problem with Mitchell) then so can Haliburton.

 

[The_Jamal]

It's not just shooting, it's movement, it's position. Buddy is a SG, Fox is not. Trying to turn him into one hasn't worked yet, how many years do they want to try that one out? Then again, DC even with little coaching experience seems to have a knack already for making chicken salad with what he's got.

The Buddy gravity hasn't been all that great when the offense breaks down and he's forced to create. He's honestly been incredibly poor these last 3 games where we've needed him to step up and be a feature offensive player.

 

[Tetsujin]

It's a fit issue. Haliburton needs a good outside shooter at the other guard position and he needs to have the ball in his hands to lead most of the offense

CP3's managed to lead the Suns with a USG of 20 to Book's 31. There are different ways of running an offense than just having the ball in your hand.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

CP3's managed to lead the Suns with a USG of 20 to Book's 31. There are different ways of running an offense than just having the ball in your hand.

That's high praise to compare him to Chris Paul. I think Haliburton has a lot of potential as well

 

[SacTownKid]

The Buddy gravity hasn't been all that great when the offense breaks down and he's forced to create. He's honestly been incredibly poor these last 3 games where we've needed him to step up and be a feature offensive player.

He's somewhat dialed out but he's been coming around at some point during games which I think is a testament to both he and the guy on the sidelines right now. Will it come back around and stick for good? Probably not. Rarely do players get this dangled for this long and not bail for good at some point. Teams still respect him if what the Warriors/Spurs did says anything.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

eh. Kind of? Buddy has been on fire for like 2 of 8 quarters and a total dud the other 6. If anything, I think getting Fox more C&S opportunties will help his 3p% as it's generally an easier shot than creating off your own bounce. And I'll keep beating this drum, but there's no such thing as too many ball-handlers/playmakers on the floor. It makes everything easier.

The big problem is when you don't have enough shooters. Which we don't

 

[The_Jamal]

I'm concerned about Fox's off-ball ability with that fit.

However, Fox being in hasn't really affected Hali's ability to make plays for others, just for himself.

He's doing it now as the only guard, but there's been far too many instances where he's deferred to Buddy or even TD. If Mitchell can look for his offense with a ball-dominant guard like Fox and gunners like Buddy and TD (and honestly, Mitchell could stand to dial it back too, if this is a problem with Fox it's going to be a problem with Mitchell) then so can Haliburton.

yeah the key will be if you can ever get Fox to stabilize to even somewhat normal as a spacer. The 5 game previous, he looked like he really found the mid-range game that boosted his efficiency back up and scoring at elite levels. So maybe he takes the DeRozan approach and abandons the 3-ball entirely and becomes a mid/paint beast.

 

[kb02]

yeah the key will be if you can ever get Fox to stabilize to even somewhat normal as a spacer. The 5 game previous, he looked like he really found the mid-range game that boosted his efficiency back up and scoring at elite levels. So maybe he takes the DeRozan approach and abandons the 3-ball entirely and becomes a mid/paint beast.

Fox driving into the paint while Hali and the rolling big are in there is a guaranteed disaster.

 

[The Effort Police]

yeah the key will be if you can ever get Fox to stabilize to even somewhat normal as a spacer. The 5 game previous, he looked like he really found the mid-range game that boosted his efficiency back up and scoring at elite levels. So maybe he takes the DeRozan approach and abandons the 3-ball entirely and becomes a mid/paint beast.

I am a big fan of multiple ballhandlers and creators, but let's look at the backcourt rotation.

Buddy- Gunner

TD- Gunner

Mitchell- Gunner

So you're looking at your ball-dominate franchise player, two gunners, and a 3 point specialist who thinks he's a creator. Someone was always going to get shafted. It's honestly too much and too unbalanced. Buddy in theory should work with this backcourt offensively but everyone knows why it doesn't. If we keep the Fox and Hali tandem, then we probably need 3/D guys to round out the backcourt, which Mitchell can be in like the Beverley mold if he curbs the gunner habits.

 

[Tetsujin]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1473173381209989121

 

[KainLear]

yeah the key will be if you can ever get Fox to stabilize to even somewhat normal as a spacer. The 5 game previous, he looked like he really found the mid-range game that boosted his efficiency back up and scoring at elite levels. So maybe he takes the DeRozan approach and abandons the 3-ball entirely and becomes a mid/paint beast.

If Fox can steadily get to his spot, this could be a realistic approach.

DeMar has been unreal. It also highlights the fact that a 52% midrange jumper is equal to the best play in any half-court offense.

KD is shooting 52% from midrange this season. Fox was hitting 53.9% midrange last season. And the midrange King DeRozen is currently hitting 56.6%.

This is why I never paid much attention to those fans who wanted to trade Fox.

 

[sactowndog]

Yup. He's a pass first point guard. Which is great, if you don't have another point guard on the floor with him


But didn't cause McNair to pass on Haliburton. Thankfully

True but he should have traded Fox as soon as he drafted Mitchell.