[Game] Kings vs. Warriors - 19 FEB 2014, 22:00 EST/19:00 PST

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

You, specifically, have made a point of saying how it pained you to agree with me. The conclusion being I must be a total idiot who stumbled onto a good point.

The conclusion of people who don't understand sarcasm, maybe.

Telling everyone who ever speaks ill of moderators to take a hike may not be personal to you but it shows a total lack of respect for the persons's opinion. That is consistent, with you in particular.

Could I have sugar coated that? Aye. Could I have been more tactful about it? Aye. But it's not in my nature to do either of those things: I wasn't tactful as a kid, I wasn't tactful when I was on active duty, I wasn't tactful here before I became a mod, and I'm not tactful now. And, if I ever stop being a mod, I'm still not going to be tactful. People expecting me to change need to learn to manage their expectations. I don't call people names, and I don't take personal shots at people. I am not nice, and I am not polite, but I am generally professional*. From my perspective, that's as much as a reasonable person should hope for.

When I tell people who don't like how this forum is run to "take a hike" (your words, not mine, for the record), I mean simply this: this message board isn't run like 4chan, or reddit. This isn't the Wild, Wild West. If you dislike the way this forum is moderated, you're always going to dislike the way this forum is moderated, because the way this forum is moderated is not likely to appreciably change.

I don't know why someone would chose to spend any significant portion of their time on a message board that they can't stand: maybe they're masochists... The point, though, is that if you don't like how we do things, then coming here everyday and being mad about how the board is run is only going to succeed in raising your blood pressure. It would be like if you decided to pack up and move to Ecuador, and then spent all of your time bitching to your neighbors about how much you hate the heat. If you live in Siberia, and you don't like the cold, move; it's not going to stop being cold. So, when I said people should click on the "x" in the upper right, that's not even a comment specific to this message board: life is too short for people to spend time doing something that makes them unhappy, when they have the power to not do it.

Again, could I have found a better way to say that earlier? Probably. But, I wasn't going to, and I think you ought to know that by now.


EDIT - * I am generally professional when posting as a mod. When I am posting as myself, I'm me. And, the thing about me is, I'm kind of a dick.

 

[Chubbs]

And a moderator is allowed to post his/her opinion. If you were not directly warned about a particular post, or receive an infraction, most moderator posts are just that, posts. I was a poster here a long time before becoming a moderator. Becoming a moderator doesn't stop me from being a fan or having opinions. You seem to not grasp that concept.

There are/were certain posters here who I frankly think/thought are/were idiots. But if they just express an opinion and do it within the bounds of the site "rules", I am not going to come down on them as a "moderator" even if I post a disagreement with their opinion.

I grasp the concept. I promise, I do.

I can see I've put some mods on the defensive and that wasn't my intent. I never said they're not allowed to have opinions. Just that there are occasions of overstepping. And I'm not talking about basketball related opinions. Perhaps I was unclear.

This, right here, is what I mean by overstepping. You've all (cap'n, slim, now warhawk) based on one comment about overstepping, told me to go take a hike if I don't like it, some more directly than others (Slim, I do enjoy your directness). I say one thing about overstepping mods, and like our pgs fans the bat signal goes out and everyone jumps in to defend themselves. It's really not necessary. It's hypersensitive of you guys. Same thing we see with certain players. You're human, we are human.

Unless someone is posting repeatedly about moderators, let it go. It's just an opinion, like everything else posted here. It's not perfect here, it's not perfect anywhere. That's ok. I just wanted fanop to know he's not the only one with occasional moderator issues. It wasn't meant as a condemnation of the site in general.

We are at the point of the season where the ship is going down. Tensions on here will be high. No one likes losing.

 

[Chubbs]

The conclusion of people who don't understand sarcasm, maybe.

Could I have sugar coated that? Aye. Could I have been more tactful about it? Aye. But it's not in my nature to do either of those things: I wasn't tactful as a kid, I wasn't tactful when I was on active duty, I wasn't tactful here before I became a mod, and I'm not tactful now. And, if I ever stop being a mod, I'm still not going to be tactful. People expecting me to change need to learn to manage their expectations. I don't call people names, and I don't take personal shots at people. I am not nice, and I am not polite, but I am generally professional. From my perspective, that's as much as a reasonable person should hope for.

When I tell people who don't like how this forum is run to "take a hike" (your words, not mine, for the record), I mean simply this: this message board isn't run like 4chan, or reddit. This isn't the Wild, Wild West. If you dislike the way this forum is moderated, you're always going to dislike the way this forum is moderated, because the way this forum is moderated is not likely to appreciably change.

I don't know why someone would chose to spend any significant portion of their time on a message board that they can't stand: maybe they're masochists... The point, though, is that if you don't like how we do things, then coming here everyday and being mad about how the board is run is only going to succeed in raising your blood pressure. It would be like if you decided to pack up and move to Ecuador, and then spent all of your time bitching to your neighbors about how much you hate the heat. If you live in Siberia, and you don't like the cold, move; it's not going to stop being cold. So, when I said people should click on the "x" in the upper right, that's not even a comment specific to this message board: life is too short for people to spend time doing something that makes them unhappy, when they have the power to not do it.

Again, could I have found a better way to say that earlier? Probably. But, I wasn't going to, and I think you ought to know that by now.

You're putting words in my mouth. I didn't condemn the site. I didn't say I dislike it here. I didn't say I can't stand it. I didn't say this website makes me unhappy. I said none of those things. Nor do I consistently and repeatedly complain about the moderators.

It's a little hypersensitive to come to those conclusions based on what I said originally.

I believe I even said I enjoy arguing with the mods. And Slim, I know damn well you're not changing. Who would want that anyway?

Just cause one doesn't agree with everything moderators do, doesn't mean that person should or needs to go elsewhere. My feedback would be that that may not be the best reaction. Feel free to dismiss it. On the whole, I like it here just fine.

 

[Warhawk]

On the whole, I like it here just fine.

Then....quit bitching about the mods? Just a hint.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I wasn't speaking to you, specifically, Chubbs. I was using your post to address a lot of people; as you pointed out, you are not unique in your dissatisfaction with the moderation.

 

[Chubbs]

Then....quit bitching about the mods? Just a hint.

Got it boss. I see this is off limits and is more trouble than it's worth.

You guys round up the troops when attacked, only seemed fair fanop had at least one on his/her side.

 

[Warhawk]

Got it boss. I see this is off limits and is more trouble than it's worth.

You guys round up the troops when attacked, only seemed fair fanop had at least one on his/her side.

You have a complaint with the mods, go to PM's for an explanation. If someone was out of line, they will apologize.

Take it to the board owner (I guess technically our "boss" although nobody gets paid) if you don't like something and you think it is worth pursuing.

I think you keep trying to find insult and oppression where there is none, and we can't help you with that.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

Rudy is getting shots up but he's hasn't gotten the ball much where he operate best. Part is no Boogie, part is on him not getting better position, part is also the poor sets we're running and IT giving it to him in poor spots at times. IT sure hasn't created easy looks for Rudy tonight for the most part.

This isn't blaming IT for everything though. Part of course is on Rudy. He hasn't played well. I just asked how much is it the PG's responsibility to set up the #1 option more often where he operates best? Comparing his role to that of a Rubio or Kyrie doesn't make sense. Kyrie IS the #1 option. Rubio is not a top 2 option and instead repeatedly and consistently looks to set his top options up. If a PG as good as CP3 regularly looks to set up his teammates and create easy looks for them, then why is it too much to ask IT to do the same? I don't see that as blaming him for everything though. All I'm blaming him for in this back and forth is not getting Rudy better looks at times. Rudy deserves blame too.

In all fairness, Rudy looks best when he's paired with Cousins. Right now he's trying to figure out his role, something that's nearly impossible because - uh oh, I'm gonna get in trouble - the point guard on the court isn't playing like a point guard should. Case in point? IT running around dribbling until he almost loses the ball and then kicks it to Rudy, expecting Rudy to do something with only three seconds left on the shot clock. In that particular instance, Rudy did - I think - make the shot but that's not the kind of teamwork you want to see and it's certainly not something you can develop a rhythm with.

Meh. Rudy's not a big man. If he needs PG help to be effective, he's not the player that we thought he was.

If we are accepting that Rudy is a star, a legitimate second option to Cousins, then he shouldn't need to be in good favorable position to make plays. If he needs his PG to set him up in order to get going or to be an efficient scorer, there's no difference between him and Kevin Martin.

Fact of the matter is that regardless of what IT is or is not doing, 6/21 with four turnovers is an unacceptable line. If you're arguing that he's not being set up correctly, or that he's not in proper scoring position when he gets the ball, again, whats the difference between him and Kevin Martin? I happen to have a higher opinion of Rudy's talent than that. And for that reason he really has nobody to blame but himself for his woes. Yes, Cousins does open things up for Rudy. But he should be able to be effective without Cousins on the foor too. Otherwise we have an overpriced third banana trying to be a #2.

 

[Chubbs]

You have a complaint with the mods, go to PM's for an explanation. If someone was out of line, they will apologize.

Take it to the board owner (I guess technically our "boss" although nobody gets paid) if you don't like something and you think it is worth pursuing.

I think you keep trying to find insult and oppression where there is none, and we can't help you with that.

I'm sorry I'm too dense to understand. I don't appreciate the veiled threat. Seems a lot like insult and oppression to say "then quit bitching, just a hint". There's a definite implied or else there man.

This conversation has run it's course.

 

[Toasty]

Wow...26-13 assists.

 

[Glenn]

The moderators consistently overstep. It's frustrating and obnoxious but some people just need to control everything.

The over stepping has kept the more mature posters a place to discuss basketball.and not simply throw darts at people. At times I think it is over controlled but for the most part, I think it is far better than to let freedom reign. It turns into chaos with snarly teenagers swearing at each other. The standards of moderation have been consistent for 13 years and work well. I think several years ago we tried to figure out the average age of the posters and it is very high. All but one of the present moderators set the original standards.

It works well as it results in high level basketball discussion. For those who want a more angry discussion, it's probably not as much fun as they would like. I think that the frequent time that two or three mods pile on gets to be a bit much. If one mod cannot handle a subject, maybe they should be changed. Better yet, if mods think that their fellow mods cannot handle things alone, they should rethink things a bit.

It seems like a common solution is "if you don't like it, leave" and sometimes it isn't put so politely. I think that's absurd. If the mods don't have time to work with new people, something is wrong and I think they see their role far differently than I do.


Edit: Slim really is a dick!! Being a dick isn't always a bad thing.

 

[Glenn]

Then....quit bitching about the mods? Just a hint.

What??????? Do we resort to threats??? If so, there REALLY is something wrong.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

It works well as it results in high level basketball discussion. For those who want a more angry discussion, it's probably not as much fun as they would like. I think that the frequent time that two or three mods pile on gets to be a bit much. If one mod cannot handle a subject, maybe they should be changed. Better yet, if mods think that their fellow mods cannot handle things alone, they should rethink things a bit.

This is a Catch-22, though: like I said, there are some people who can't compartmentalize between "X the poster" and "X the moderator," and this creates an arguably false perception in their minds, which ends up meaning that we can't agree with each other without it seeming like us "dog piling," or "circling the wagons."

 

[Warhawk]

I'm sorry I'm too dense to understand. I don't appreciate the veiled threat. Seems a lot like insult and oppression to say "then quit bitching, just a hint". There's a definite implied or else there man.

This conversation has run it's course.

That wasn't a threat. It was a hint that bitching about the mods just degenerates into this same tired discussion over and over that doesn't lead anywhere. If you like it here "just fine" why are you bitching? If you don't like it here, why stay? Again, I think you keep trying to find insult and oppression where there is none, and we can't help you with that.

 

[Glenn]

This is a Catch-22, though: like I said, there are some people who can't compartmentalize between "X the poster" and "X the moderator," and this creates an arguably false perception in their minds, which ends up meaning that we can't agree with each other without it seeming like us "dog piling," or "circling the wagons."

There are specific situtations where two mods in their mod roles have jumped on other posters.

As to mod and personal roles, you folks chose your roles. Don't expect us to be as clever as you are and understand that you speak in two different roles. If you want to moderate, moderate. If you want to have opinions, have opinions. Just don't expect us to understand you can be both and exactly when those times happen. I personally can figure it out 'cause I know you all but Warhawk. I still don't understand his/her role. As to VF21, brick, Jeremy, and you, I know you well. For those who don't know, I was here before anyone but Jeremy.

 

[Glenn]

That wasn't a threat. It was a hint that bitching about the mods just degenerates into this same tired discussion over and over that doesn't lead anywhere. If you like it here "just fine" why are you bitching? If you don't like it here, why stay? Again, I think you keep trying to find insult and oppression where there is none, and we can't help you with that.

It wasn't a threat? Are you kidding me? I saw it as a threat. A clear threat. And then the typical "why don't you leave?" Disgusting way of leadership. But that's just my opinion as a mere poster, sir.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

There are specific situtations where two mods in their mod roles have jumped on other posters.

As to mod and personal roles, you folks chose your roles. Don't expect us to be as clever as you are and understand that you speak in two different roles. If you want to moderate, moderate. If you want to have opinions, have opinions. Just don't expect us to understand you can be both and exactly when those times happen...

Yeah, but how do you, as a not-me, determine when I'm doing which, unless I say so? It's not like we have a toggle switch, that we can enable or disable, or some kind of flashing icon that only comes up under our avatars when we're acting as mods.

From my point of view, I'm acting as Mr. Slim Citrus the poster, at all times, unless I specifically say otherwise (I actually used to disable my signature for any post that I was making as Mr. Slim Citrus the moderator [since my signature is kind of silly, so I figured no sig = SERIOUS BUSINESS~!], but the new software doesn't allow me to do that, any more). What you seem to suggest is that, from the perspective of others, they think I'm acting as Mr. Slim Citrus the moderator, unless I specifically say otherwise, but I don't grok why that would be an easier way to look at things.

Every moderator here was a poster before they became a mod, even VF and Bricklayer. Why would being a mod change our core personalities, or how we post?

 

[Glenn]

Yeah, but how do you, as a not-me, determine when I'm doing which, unless I say so? It's not like we have a toggle switch, that we can enable or disable, or some kind of flashing icon that only comes up under our avatars when we're acting as mods.

From my point of view, I'm acting as Mr. Slim Citrus the poster, at all times, unless I specifically say otherwise (I actually used to disable my signature for any post that I was making as Mr. Slim Citrus the moderator [since my signature is kind of silly, so I figured no sig = SERIOUS BUSINESS~!], but the new software doesn't allow me to do that, any more). What you seem to suggest is that, from the perspective of others, they think I'm acting as Mr. Slim Citrus the moderator, unless I specifically say otherwise, but I don't grok why that would be an easier way to look at things.

Every moderator here was a poster before they became a mod, even VF and Bricklayer. Why would being a mod change our core personalities, or how we post?

I'm saying there is confusion. The mods expect us to figure it out. I expect the mods to figure it out as you folks picked your role. I didn't volunteer. You give up something with power and that is consorting with the common man can leave the common man confused.

 

[Warhawk]

It wasn't a threat? Are you kidding me? I saw it as a threat. A clear threat. And then the typical "why don't you leave?" Disgusting way of leadership. But that's just my opinion as a mere poster, sir.

No it was not, and I can't help what you are "seeing". You guys are seriously reading WAY too much into things.

And nobody said "leave and don't come back" did they? It was a question. If you say you are happy, why *****? And if you just want to *****, why stay? Seems......obvious.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I'm saying there is confusion. The mods expect us to figure it out. I expect the mods to figure it out as you folks picked your role...

Yeah, but here's the thing: we have it figured out. The problem is that there is no mechanism in place for us to communicate that to anybody else.

How's this for a solution: I will only type in teal when I'm posting as me; and, when I'm posting as mod-me, maybe I'll do this, instead. Would that be satisfactory?

 

[treach1976]

No it was not, and I can't help what you are "seeing". You guys are seriously reading WAY too much into things.

And nobody said "leave and don't come back" did they? It was a question. If you say you are happy, why *****? And if you just want to *****, why stay? Seems......obvious.

Agree with Glenn. That post was one of those "bad ref calls" to extend the analogy from my previous post (where I defended the mod philosophy). "Just a hint" implies subtext that the poster now needs to figure out how to interpret. If you are speaking as a mod ("teal font" turned off), then be clear and precise in your communication or take it to a PM.

 

[Glenn]

Yeah, but here's the thing: we have it figured out. The problem is that there is no mechanism in place for us to communicate that to anybody else.

How's this for a solution: I will only type in teal when I'm posting as me; and, when I'm posting as mod-me, maybe I'll do this, instead. Would that be satisfactory?

The clear cut mechanism would be to have mods who played one role: moderators. They would do nothing else. How's that? How would the military handle it? Can an enlisted man tell an officer what to do?

I prefer blood red and maybe a change of color would help. Seriously, maybe that's a good idea.

 

[Chubbs]

That wasn't a threat. It was a hint that bitching about the mods just degenerates into this same tired discussion over and over that doesn't lead anywhere. If you like it here "just fine" why are you bitching? If you don't like it here, why stay? Again, I think you keep trying to find insult and oppression where there is none, and we can't help you with that.

You've proved my point with your continued threats. In a conversation that slim handled more than adequately you piled on for no reason other than to put me in my place. And you say we, but you speak for yourself. No other mod is giving "or else" threats.

This is the reaction to any mod criticism time and time again.

This is a FAN site. Try to keep that in mind. The mod reaction needn't be "conform or else." If a large group of fans (posters on this site) feel there's an issue, then there's probably an issue. Most are too scared say anything. You can continue to handle things this way, but I don't think Glenn had this in mind when he began this website where bullying the posters is the reaction to criticism.

Edit: this is meant for warhawk specifically.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

The clear cut mechanism would be to have mods who played one role: moderators. They would do nothing else. How's that?

That's probably not a reasonable expectation. There'd be no incentive for anyone to take the job; as you're well aware, it's not like we get paid. "Congratulations, you're a mod. Now, go sit in this corner and be silent, until I point at you with my stick." Who's signing up for that?

How would the military handle it?

I don't know: ombudsmen, probably.

 

[Glenn]

That's probably not a reasonable expectation. There'd be no incentive for anyone to take the job; as you're well aware, it's not like we get paid. "Congratulations, you're a mod. Now, go sit in this corner and be silent, until I point at you with my stick." Who's signing up for that?

I don't know: ombudsmen, probably.

Ha! Ha! Really? What would I know?

OK, my problem is that some mods shift back and forth rather rapidly and it's difficult to know what's up. The change of color would be a good idea. No? Go to your special mod place and discuss it. Please?

I also would appreciate very much if when there is a squabble between a mod and a forum member that it remained one on one. When another mod jumps in, it gets close to intimidating. I'd presume the same idea be honored by forum members although it's more difficult to communicate that idea to forum members than to a limited number of mods.

I understand my first suggestion was bean squat but wanted to point out the problem for us all with what, in other circumstances, might not be the worst idea. Maybe we should hire mods. I'll chip in and pay them what you get.

 

[whozit]

I was thinking firing squad.

 

[Toasty]

Being a mod isn't hard

 

[whozit]

Being a mod isn't hard

What? Have you ever been one? I haven't been one but I have been a volunteer where the only time your noticed (and that shouldn't be the motivation) is when something goes wrong or someone has a complaint.

I would have to think there is difficult balance between fan and moderator. I wouldn't want to be in their shoes.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Being a mod isn't hard

I don't think anyone said it was; thankless, sure. Not worth the bull**** we have to put up with? Sometimes. Hard? Not really.

whozit makes a great point, though: it's a lot easier to be an "impartial" mod on a general forum than it is on a fan site, like this one.

 

[Warhawk]

You've proved my point with your continued threats. In a conversation that slim handled more than adequately you piled on for no reason other than to put me in my place. And you say we, but you speak for yourself. No other mod is giving "or else" threats.

This is the reaction to any mod criticism time and time again.

This is a FAN site. Try to keep that in mind. The mod reaction needn't be "conform or else." If a large group of fans (posters on this site) feel there's an issue, then there's probably an issue. Most are too scared say anything. You can continue to handle things this way, but I don't think Glenn had this in mind when he began this website where bullying the posters is the reaction to criticism.

Edit: this is meant for warhawk specifically.

Um, I haven't given one threat, much less "continued" anything. I can't help delusion in others.

I "piled on to put you in your place"? Really? Here is the entirety of my first post:

And a moderator is allowed to post his/her opinion. If you were not directly warned about a particular post, or receive an infraction, most moderator posts are just that, posts. I was a poster here a long time before becoming a moderator. Becoming a moderator doesn't stop me from being a fan or having opinions. You seem to not grasp that concept.

There are/were certain posters here who I frankly think/thought are/were idiots. But if they just express an opinion and do it within the bounds of the site "rules", I am not going to come down on them as a "moderator" even if I post a disagreement with their opinion.

Please explain where I am "piling on".

No where in this thread did I post an "or else".

You have not been threatened, given an infraction, or told to do anything like leave. We have asked why you stay here and complain if it is so miserable for you, to which you say you like it just fine. Not sure how we are supposed to help you with that, and not sure that we are here to help you at all if you can't make up your own mind.

Frankly, mod complaints are VERY minimal - I think you are SEVERELY overstating that. But again, I can't help visions of persecution in others where there is none. Go back over the thread carefully and really think about what was typed and then how it was interpreted. Overreaction to a typed comment is common by those thinking they are being singled out or "bullied" - reading "threats" where there are none. Your posts in this thread over the past day or so are a prime example.