Kings vs. Lakers pre season game 4

[Section 101]

How about Smart actually spend some time teaching Evans, get back on that track of teaching him to map the floor, and running some non-iso plays for Evans to create for others, or to actually get some points cutting on a fixed play instead of asking Evans to cut and hoping someone manages to get him the ball. This thing about Evans not taking the open jumpshot has always puzzled me, because I haven't seen these open shots that Evans is giving up both last year and so far this preseason. Well not regularly at least. What he does have is a little bit of space between his man and him, but then him pulling up in such a situation is still very much a 1 on 1 play. It's not like we're creating open shots for Evans but he's refusing to take them.

What makes you think he isnt still teaching him? Here's a possiblity. Maybe Evans just doesn't get it and never will.

 

[bajaden]

Look at what Pop did with Tony Parker. He broke him and stuck with till he became what he is today. Are you telling me he couldn't do the same with Evans? Yes, you're right teams do win BUT stars win championships in the NBA. It's unfortunate and its the Kings have suffered because of it (Lakers of the early 2000's). But when you have 2 potential elite players on your team, you do your darndest to make sure they are the focus. You see how you breathe on Durant or Westbrook and you get a whistle. You look at Kobe wrong and you get a whistle? Thats what should have been built here. A team full of role players don't win Championships. Look at San Antonio. The moment Tim Duncan stop being elite, they no longer were a true title contender. That's what Miami chased after, stars. That's why LA wins all the time. Stars. It's frustrating because they have 2 guys who can be those stars for the Kings.

I don't disagree with anything you just said, but that wasn't what I was responding to. It wasn't a question of whether or not Pop's could help mold Tyreke. My point is that Tyreke would have to change in order to be a part of the Spurs team, and it wouldn't be an easy transition. Smart is trying to change Tyreke now. Whether or not you agree with his approach or not is another question. But you can't imply that Tyreke can just move to another team and suddenly transform into a superstar.

Look, I'm a huge fan of Tyreke's. No one wants him to succeed more than I do. I was one of the few that wanted the Kings to draft him. I've always thought he can be a star in the league, and I still do. But until he improves certain parts of his game, he's going to remain what he is right now. And, what he is right now is a very good player, but he's a player that doesn't fit perfectly what the Kings are trying to do right now. Thats not his fault, but its the reality of the situation. He was asked to play one way for two years, and now he's being asked to change his game. You can lay some of the blame on Tyreke, but some of it is also on the orginization.

I agree with your two star analogy, and there are few exceptions to that rule. I'd say that the Rick Barry Warriors team that won the title would be one of those. But in general, you need at least one superstar, and another superstar or star player to make a run at a title. I think the Jordan Bulls with Pippen would be the perfect example of one superstar and one star player. Unless you consider Pippen a superstar, which I never did. But even then, you have to have a deep and good supporting cast. The Atlanta Hawks came close, but they lacked a deep team, and they never had that one superstar that could carry them when needed.

 

[bajaden]

.
Just so i can now waste my time. What if nobody offers Tyreke big money, which is possible since he hasnt looked to great after being misused for 3 years here? Tyreke wants big time money and if nobody offers that then he may not sign with them. And if he doesnt sign a long term deal with us then he will be playing next season under a 1 year tender in which case after next season he would be an UN-restricted free agent. I dont want Tyreke Evans for this year and then 1 more. I want Tyreke Evans for the next 10 years.

Your absolutely right, he could accept the qualifying offer, play another year, and then become an unrestricted freeagent. That would be his choice. But if he proves in that year that he's worthy of a max contract, then we can still offer more than anyone else, and if he doesn't, then maybe he proves he doesn't belong here. Now you may not like that result, but everything is results oriented. I'm not into popularity contests. I like Tyreke, but he has to prove he's worth the money, and if he does, then we should offer it to him. But you don't pay anyone on good faith, you pay them for proven results, which I admit can be somewhat subjective on this fourm.

 

[bajaden]

Ok, I didn't see the game, and I have to assume that a large majority of the those posting didn't see it either, since it wasn't televised. As a result, I didn't comment on the game. I'm not going to comment on hearsay. But I did read every single post in the game thread, and I can honestly say that around 90% of them were negative in some fashion. They were negative about a team that I love and care about dearly. The person I addressed was one of the most negative of the bunch. And so I simply asked him obvious questions, to which I really wanted and answer.

I have a hard time understanding how someone that thinks the team sucks (his words not mine), thinks the coaching staff and management suck, along with the ownership, can still root for the team? Just whats left to root for? If every single thing on the team, save a few of his favorite players is terrible, why put yourself through such pain. Sorry Rainmaker, but I'm a positive person, and I always look for the positive things. If your looking for negative things, you'll find them. You can find them in your team, your friends, and your spouse. I always go back to what I've said before. I won't say anything on this fourm about a player or a coach that I wouldn't say to their face. Just like I won't say bad things about my friends behind their back. Thats what cowards do.

In short, as a person that believes this team can be a good team and maybe someday soon, a team that can compete for a championship, I get sick and tired of hearing the same negative things over and over and over and over again. And, it appears to be contagious, because if you say anything positive, your in the minority. I mean for gods sake, people that didn't even see the game are commenting on Jimmers defense, or lack there of. How crazy is that?
Do they have the right to say it? Yes! But I certainly don't understand the logic behind it.

Now, I never implied that he shouldn't be a fan, or questioned his loyality. Quite the opposite, I simply couldn't understand how he could hate so much about the team, actually almost everything, and still remain a fan. I can be critical of players and coaches, and I have been. I was a huge critic of Westphals. I've never been a big fan of Salmons or Hayes for that matter. But I never paint with a broad brush, and I'm not saying that he, or you, or anyone else can't do that. But as your entitled to say what you want, I'm entitled to disagree with you or anyone else.

So here's the deal. I'm not going to fight with you over this nonsense. I'm going to post what I think, and if you or anyone else doesn't like it, then don't read it. Put me on your ignore list if what I say is that offensive to you. I'm willing to have a civil discussion with anyone. But I won't discuss, that the team just sucks! Because any moron can make fun of people and call them names. And all their proving is that they're intellectually vacant. And, just to clarify, that last comment was not directed at you!

 

[bajaden]

And fail every time it matters when they run into the team built properly. Team offense can win you a lot in the regular season. Remember when Webber came back they were still posting great numbers even with basically 7 good players on the team and they even pushed Wolves to 7 game series but in game 7 Garnett was a monster and Kings could do nothing about it. Thornton and Thomas will be shutdown if need be, Tyreke as a second fiddle to Cousins is much harder to deal with if put in the right situation.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the way the Spurs are built. Or were built! Their problem is that they've gotten old. A championship is more than likely out of the question in the immediate, but it looks like Pop's, who is the real GM of the Spurs, is trying to make as smooth a transtion to the future as possible by infusing new blood into the team. Jury's still out how successful he'll be, because its a tough task. But the longer he can keep Duncan and Parker etc. around, the easier the transition will be.

 

[bajaden]

Well ok then get Popovich to coach our team and you can send Tyreke packing. Star players become a lot less important when you've actually got a good coach who knows how to teach good team play. You get a good coach and your team can be the best in the West even without superstars that will go down as some of the best in history. At the same time, you can have a bad coach, no team play, and a guy named Lebron James and end up reaching the finals and having the best record in the East.

Now I'm not comparing Evans to LeBron, but I think that you need to make use of what you have while possible. I honestly don't believe that Smart will be as good a coach as Pop, few are. So using the Spurs as an example to advocate trading Evans for lesser pieces that fit better may not be quite correct. How about Smart actually spend some time teaching Evans, get back on that track of teaching him to map the floor, and running some non-iso plays for Evans to create for others, or to actually get some points cutting on a fixed play instead of asking Evans to cut and hoping someone manages to get him the ball. This thing about Evans not taking the open jumpshot has always puzzled me, because I haven't seen these open shots that Evans is giving up both last year and so far this preseason. Well not regularly at least. What he does have is a little bit of space between his man and him, but then him pulling up in such a situation is still very much a 1 on 1 play. It's not like we're creating open shots for Evans but he's refusing to take them.

I don't know, to me it just seems like Smart has focused a whole lot more on helping Cousins to develop than Evans. He goes out of his way to ensure that he has a good relationship with Cuz, but puts Evans at SF (and the whole bloody Kings world knows Evans doesn't want to be at SF). He lets Cuz take 3s, but doesn't draw up good plays for Evans to score or create for others. If Smart truly desires to see Evans develop and become a leader next to Cuz, he'd be doing more to teach him how to be a better team player by giving him the structure necessary to learn to do so.

I sort of agree with most of what you say. Especially in regards to Cousins vrs Evans. But I think first, if you have to choose between a good big man and a good little man (not implying that Tyreke is little), you always take the big man because they're harder to find. I also think that in general, Cousins, at least initially, needed more hands on care. From an emotional point of view, if not a futuristic point of view of where the team is headed. That said, there's no doubt that Tyreke's development was negelected for at least two years, and most of last year as well.

However, we can't ignore that Smart, and Petrie both paid close attention to Tyreke's offseason development this past offseason. Its reported that Petrie spent quite a bit of time in the Gym working with Tyreke on his jumpshot. So we know that more emphasis was put on Tyreke's development. Too little too late? Way too early to tell. I mean I haven't even seen a game yet, and even if I had, I wouldn't put too much faith in what I saw one way or another.

I mean if Jimmer comes out and scores 35 points in the game tonight, an I voting him onto the all star roster? Hell no! Am I happy about it? Sure, but I'm certainly not using it as a yardstick for whats to come, anymore than I would pass judgement on Tyreke's jumpshot based on a couple of preseason games. My gut tells me that Tyreke is going to be alright. Its going to take him a little while to feel comfortable in a different role, but I think he'll get there.

 

[rainmaker]

Ok, I didn't see the game, and I have to assume that a large majority of the those posting didn't see it either, since it wasn't televised.

Just want to point out everyone in that thread was watching. Most of us have watched 3 of the 4 games so far through online streams. Not saying we all ahve to agree, which we never will, but just did want to point out much of the criticism is coming from watching the games live, not just from Smart's quotes in the Bee or postgame writeups.

 

[rainmaker]

I have a hard time understanding how someone that thinks the team sucks (his words not mine), thinks the coaching staff and management suck, along with the ownership, can still root for the team? Just whats left to root for? If every single thing on the team, save a few of his favorite players is terrible, why put yourself through such pain. Sorry Rainmaker, but I'm a positive person, and I always look for the positive things. If your looking for negative things, you'll find them. You can find them in your team, your friends, and your spouse. I always go back to what I've said before. I won't say anything on this fourm about a player or a coach that I wouldn't say to their face. Just like I won't say bad things about my friends behind their back. Thats what cowards do.

Fair enough. I didn't try to imply you can't disagree with anyone, I was just wondering more about the go root for another team comment. As far as positives vs negatives, I think a lot of us do see positives, in our over all talent and some of the young players we have. I'm very positive about Cuz. I'm positive about the talent IT/Reke/MT/TRob have as youngsters. I'm excited about what JJ has shown and think that was a great pickup. Said that as soon as we traded for him.

But, I think many, inlcuding myself are negative about how our talent fits, our overall roster fits and most of all, how the talent is being managed. But this is more my overall sense from the forum, not the poster you disagreed with. Some will never agree on the way Smart is managing out talent, and some are more patient than others. A few fans are more than patient because it's pre season. Others see warning flags. There's no right or wrong, at least to me.

Actually, I honestly think some frustration comes because we all do see positives in our talent base, yet are worried about what is our most talented team in 5+ years and how it appears to be mismanaged, at least to some of us. for example, when I say a 10-12 man rotation is a horrible idea, it's not because I'm negative about our talent, but rather that I see it taking away from out talent, the most we've had in years, and if they're successful teams in the league who've succeeded with 10-12 man rotations and switching roles, I might feel positive about it, but I haven't seen that throughout history. If we didn't have talent in the first place I don't think many would care about the rotations as much as it wouldn't matter.

 

[bajaden]

Fair enough. I didn't try to imply you can't disagree with anyone, I was just wondering more about the go root for another team comment. As far as positives vs negatives, I think a lot of us do see positives, in our over all talent and some of the young players we have. I'm very positive about Cuz. I'm positive about the talent IT/Reke/MT/TRob have as youngsters. I'm excited about what JJ has shown and think that was a great pickup. Said that as soon as we traded for him.

But, I think many, inlcuding myself are negative about how our talent fits, our overall roster fits and most of all, how the talent is being managed. But this is more my overall sense from the forum, not the poster you disagreed with. Some will never agree on the way Smart is managing out talent, and some are more patient than others. A few fans are more than patient because it's pre season. Others see warning flags. There's no right or wrong, at least to me.

Actually, I honestly think some frustration comes because we all do see positives in our talent base, yet are worried about what is our most talented team in 5+ years and how it appears to be mismanaged, at least to some of us. for example, when I say a 10-12 man rotation is a horrible idea, it's not because I'm negative about our talent, but rather that I see it taking away from out talent, the most we've had in years, and if they're successful teams in the league who've succeeded with 10-12 man rotations and switching roles, I might feel positive about it, but I haven't seen that throughout history. If we didn't have talent in the first place I don't think many would care about the rotations as much as it wouldn't matter.

I don't disagree with your premise at all. I've said for the last few years that we have a lot of pieces that don't fit together very well, regardless of how talented they might be. Doesn't mean it can't work to some degree, but its a lot more difficult. For instance, if your going to play any type of motion offense, I can't think of a worse offense for Tyreke to play in. At least as he is today as a player. Tyreke is a ballhandler surpreme, and his best attribute is slashing to the basket. A motion offense basicly requires much less ballhandling and more passing, along with moving without the ball. Doesn't mean he can't do it, or learn to do it, but it takes away from his known strengths. That makes Tyreke an ill fitting piece. At least at the moment.

Cousins on the other hand is a perfect player for a motion offense. I won't bore you with a breakdown of the whole team, but I think we're mostly in agreement, and personally I don't have any answers to the problem other than changing some of the parts. Of course no one wants their favorite player to be traded. However, winning seems to cure most ills, and players are easily forgotten when the victories start rolling in.

For about five years now, the Kings have been building a team with no master plan that I can see. Basicly, its the coach that lays out the battle plan for the future, and when you keep changing coaches, then there is no legitimate plan that stays in place. Petrie may have a plan, but if the coach he hires doesn't see the team the same way he does, then what difference does any plan Petrie has make? I won't get into whether its the Maloofs or Petrie or divine intervention. It doesn't matter! The result is the same. At the moment I believe there's enough talent on the team to have a winning season. But I doubt this team will ever compete for a championship without some major changes. Neither IT or Brooks is the next coming of Tiny Archibald, or even Spud Webb for that matter. JT is a nice solid rotational player, but I doubt he'll be the starting PF on a championship team. So the question then is, can Robinson fill that bill? Big question mark. Anyway, I think you get my point.