I'll hazard a guess and say he's referring to those of you who think it would not be a problem to have Reke coming off the bench.
[Game] Kings v. Rockets - 4-8-12
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I'll hazard a guess and say he's referring to those of you who think it would not be a problem to have Reke coming off the bench.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Tyreke is not going to do that, not for any length of time. He is gone ina year that way. Sooner really as his camp will request a trade. the only way you can make that work is to instantly start winning big. Becuase otherwise there are numerous teams that will cheerfully start him, and even put the ball in his hands. Settling for scraps behnd inferior players maybe works for us, not for him.
You are correct, he was coming back from an injury and the team had strung together a couple of wins. He still went and said it was ok to come off the bench. Just because you start there, doesn't mean you will finish there and I see that an important distinction for many players.
How are you so sure he would not do it? And it does indeed rely on the team starting to win big. If they team doesn't start winning big, I see him leaving anyways regardless of it he is starting.
People really need to take a few minutes and think about that statement, with which I totally agree by the way. We need Tyreke to be the best he can be - hungry and determined and in control. That will not happen if he comes off the bench. In fact, I think we would be killing the best part of him were that to happen. And then, much like the proverbial snowball, we would be creating the exact situation Bricklayer is warning about.
vikinginferno
Starter
Look, I've been one of the biggest Reke supporters throughout my time here, but some of you are getting a bit ridiculous. At what point do you at least put any blame on him for not producing or developing really anything in his game?
I know some of you are still holding onto the glimmer of hope that he can become a superstar in this league, but right now he isn't a superstar. He isn't even close. The fact that some of you put him ahead of the team (saying things like if we bring him off the bench, he will leave and we will beat ourselves up over that mistake or that coach should stop letting other people have the ball or stop letting other people shoot and instead let Tyreke have the ball more) is getting a bit ridiculous. Then, you go ahead and mock anyone who brings up anything that could be construed in the slightest sense as a criticism of Tyreke. This is not directed at anyone in particular or even this thread in particular(it's something I have seen often the last few months from a number of different people).
Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, Tyreke does not have the superstar potential that you cling onto and that maybe, just maybe, he shouldn't be treated like a superstar?
I know some of you are still holding onto the glimmer of hope that he can become a superstar in this league, but right now he isn't a superstar. He isn't even close. The fact that some of you put him ahead of the team (saying things like if we bring him off the bench, he will leave and we will beat ourselves up over that mistake or that coach should stop letting other people have the ball or stop letting other people shoot and instead let Tyreke have the ball more) is getting a bit ridiculous. Then, you go ahead and mock anyone who brings up anything that could be construed in the slightest sense as a criticism of Tyreke. This is not directed at anyone in particular or even this thread in particular(it's something I have seen often the last few months from a number of different people).
Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, Tyreke does not have the superstar potential that you cling onto and that maybe, just maybe, he shouldn't be treated like a superstar?
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It indeed isn't working that good. I like MT and Reke on the team but think one of them should be coming off the bench. With more practice time and a small forward who is solid I think the team can be pretty good.
Actually, if you want to pick nits, he didn't say he was okay with coming off the bench. He was okay with letting Salmons start because "Johnny had earned it." Giving props to a fellow player, especially one who has had problems in the past, is a sign of maturity and leadership. That did not ever mean that Evans wouldn't want his place back.
At this point, I'm going to agree that we really disagree because I simply do not think you even see the same picture let alone see it from the same point of view.
What is your point of view?
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
He certainly doesn't off the ball. But then again neither would DWade, Rose, Westbrook or any of them. Making a superstar look ordinary is really as simple as taking the ball out of his hands. This is of course why our Olympics teams are always so vulnerable. Now of course dong that INTENTIONALLY...well, that is slightly on the dumb side.
I don't know what Reke's potential is with the ball. The way its going neither will we until another team taps into it. And then you are going to have to hold on. Worst case scenario it becomes THE worst mistake ever made in the Sacramento era. You gave up on a potential major star a little over 2 years into his career, at age 21. Think about that. In any case, this current course is pointless. It alienates the player, does not develop him, kills his trade value, makes him look elsewhere.
Tyreke Evans is an incredible talent that has, unfortunately, been asked to do the impossible. He's not a SF and having him play as one is not helping him or the Kings. Evans has done every single thing that has been asked of him and I think the sky could be the limit with the right players around him, a defined rotation, and a total and permanent departure from small ball. Unfortunately, he's the target of relentless criticism because of the media darling IT.
Don't get me wrong. I love Isaiah and I think there is room on our team for both of them. Our problem is we still have a bunch of players who look like they found a box of uniforms and decided to play like a team. Thornton is good but he is not better than Tyreke. To suggest that we bring Reke off the bench and start Thornton is, to me, akin to starting Hayes and bringing Cousins in with the second unit.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
I wouldn't do that. I agree with anyone who thinks that jump starts his exit from the franchise. Harden is doing it on the team tied for 1st in the west and a legit title contender, behind arguably two of the top 10 players in the game. Also don't think MKG or any SF can cover the lack of defense from an IT/MT pairing.
PurpleHaze
All-Star
I wonder if Reke's toe was part of or big reason for his ineffectiveness tonight and limited playing time. Before the game Coach Smart mentioned that Reke was going to give it a go even though his toe was bothering him. Can't question #13's toughness and wanting to be out there. At least TWill picked it up in his place when no one else could get much going.
The question really boils down to whether Reke can be the 2nd best player on a contending team. I think he can be. I know not everyone agrees with that. I really think his poor season is all in his head. He is a better player than what he is showing on the court. We have seen it. He was dominant his first year in the league. I think his confidence is shot after last year. At some point he needs to get a little angry and do something about it. Or go to India for a month and do some soul searching. He needs to get his head together. Next season, DMC may be the 2nd best big man in the league. If Reke can get back where he was his rookie year and we get the right support guys in here we should be heading to the playoffs. But we need support pieces that play defense and can play off the ball if we ever want to win.
vikinginferno
Starter
Look, before he switched positions, he was playing worse than after he switched. At guard this season, he scored 16.8 points on 41% shooting, 5 assists, and 5 rebounds. At forward, he is averaging 16.6 points on 48% shooting, 4.5 assists and 5 rebounds (he is averaging 19 points on 61% shooting, 3 assists, and 4.5 rebounds off the bench by the way). The way you are painting the picture, Tyreke had been developing smoothly at guard with the ball in his hands and then he was suddenly jerked to SF. In reality, he was struggling heavily WHILE ON THE BALL and was switched to a position that, while he may not have the potential to become a D-Wade like-superstar like it seems that you think he can possibly become (correct me if you don't think that), he is producing more efficiently at. Maybe at some point, you need to realize Tyreke just isn't as good a player as you think he could be and that is okay. He is still a very good player to have!
Let me say that I do not at all like how our team is currently set up and I think Tyreke would best fit at the SG position with him developing a more capable jumpshot.
I agree 100% he is incredibly talented and has been asked to do the impossible. I don't think he is a SF and playing him there is dumb. I think he will be unstoppable if he ever gets a solid jump shot/floater. My criticism for him and why I see him being more productive off of the bench is that to be his best I see him being the main offensive weapon on the floor. If the coach/other players could find a way to run Reke and Cousins together it would be amazing, but so far it just doesn't seem to be happening. If he were to come off the bench and be the focus of the offense without worrying about competing with Cousins and Thornton for shots I think he would be better than he was his rookie year. Cousins and Thornton seem to work better together right now. If the coach/players find a way for all three to work together I think Tyreke should start but it just isn't there. Maybe they can work it out over the summer (I hope).
I really just see him as coming off the bench because of the way the team plays and the way I see Cousins as the main focus of the offense. And like you I think Tyreke is incredible and if he is the focus of the offense he will get more done... but I wouldn't put him ahead of Cousins and at the moment without a solid jumper they don't seem to work well together.
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Like I mention, I don't like IT because of size and a lack of defense but I don't really see a better option at the moment. And to jump starting his exit point, I see him leaving if the team doesn't improve dramatically anyways.
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vikinginferno
Starter
That comparison is absolutely ridiculous and you would get slapped in the face by Thornton if he heard that. If you are going to compare Reke to Cousins in terms of talent(which isn't right), then comparing Thornton to a guy who averages 3 points and 4.5 rebounds a game is completely laughable. I don't know if you have some personal beef with Thornton or something, but he is our leading scorer. Thornton is quite possibly better than Reke RIGHT NOW. He is a better all around scorer. I don't think he has a very high ceiling (Reke's is higher definitely), but Thornton is arguably producing better right now.
Section 101
All-Star
Anyone remember the clip with his brothers? The one where they said he got his fade from playing against older/taller players. They also mentioned he didn't take the game seriously enough. He treated it like a game a the Y. He has gotten by on his ability to drive to the basket. Teams have adjusted. He needs to adjust his game now. And once again repeat after me, March was his best month since Feb of his rookie year. He did make progress at the SF. It's just not the glamorous on the ball PG that everyone got caught up in.
Kings Faithful
Starter
And the team played its worst defense in years.
MassachusettsKingsFan
All-Star
Why isn't Evans getting better? I don't mean just this season or since he was moved to small forward or since the coaching change. Those are external factors. I think there is something internally wrong.
Other guys are getting better here. Thornton broke out here. Thomas created an NBA career here. Cousins made a gigantic leap this season. Jason Thompson has been much improved. Terrence Williams is playing the best basketball of his life.
And NO, I'm not saying Tyreke is the reason we aren't good. As a matter of fact, he's rarely even the reason we lose. He just has far to many games where he isn't giving us anything.. games where you can't even tell he's in uniform.
This isn't to say he isn't an NBA player. That would be absurd. If he never improves for the rest of his career he's in the league and starting for the next 10 years... but it is very valuable to know when a player has reached his potential. That way you can trade a player without being scared you just traded the next Dwayne Wade.
Other guys are getting better here. Thornton broke out here. Thomas created an NBA career here. Cousins made a gigantic leap this season. Jason Thompson has been much improved. Terrence Williams is playing the best basketball of his life.
And NO, I'm not saying Tyreke is the reason we aren't good. As a matter of fact, he's rarely even the reason we lose. He just has far to many games where he isn't giving us anything.. games where you can't even tell he's in uniform.
This isn't to say he isn't an NBA player. That would be absurd. If he never improves for the rest of his career he's in the league and starting for the next 10 years... but it is very valuable to know when a player has reached his potential. That way you can trade a player without being scared you just traded the next Dwayne Wade.
I don't really care where he plays on the floor. But this team will never succeed with IT, MT and Reke all on the floor together for an extended period of time. And Reke is the most physically gifted out of the 3 and therefore has the most potential so we should build the team around him. He would not be the first player in the league to develop a better work ethic or add skills as he got older. We will never win with MT and IT both in the starting lineup for an extended period of time. We need different players.
vikinginferno
Starter
Completely agree. I'm not sure why some others are hell bent on not giving Tyreke any blame or acknowledging the fact he hasn't really gotten better at anything. I don't see any way he becomes a superstar in this league. An all-star? Definitely possible, but not a superstar. I think we all need to temper our expectations on Tyreke and accept the fact that he isn't what we hoped he would become after his rookie season. It does NOT mean he is not a very good player in this league though.
If you look at it like this its obvious:
Reke is put in a position to succeed when he has the ball. On the break or breaking the defense in the 1/2 court he has to start with the ball in his hands with his current skill set. We learned under WP that Reke can't just wing it like a pure point guard like Nash when he has the ball in his hands because he tends to over dribble get into the offense slow and go into hero mode. So if Tyreke has the ball in his hands then he needs a structured offense and until it becomes habit he needs to be told from the sideline which play to run when and those plays need to tell him when to move the ball and where.
On a team wide view if you designed an offense taking his and the other guys skill set into account you would find that he and MT can actually play beside each other and IT can come off the bench for one or the other and then after a bit of rest the one who didn't go out first would then exit..... This is of course a 3 guard rotation dunno if smart has heard of it or not. We don't need scoring for our SF position we need defense there and defense in at least the 1 or 2 because our wing defense is horrible. We need to get WS 15-20 minutes a night and we need to stop trying to get as small as possible.
Small ball is hard for me to watch it hurts because its a cop-out you don't want to implement the plays to make it work so you just add more "natural playmakers" to the floor to cover it up.
For the people who will chime in and say we tried him at PG for 2 years I would say that we didn't take the second step of creating plays and have him run them and thats why it failed. Not because he can't pass or can't see the floor but because he isn't sure what is right and what is the wrong thing to do and our "coaches" have failed to train him. I like IT and I was one of the first to say he would surprise us after watching some stuff about him after Dime started his diary but he is a change of pace guard and I think it hurt us when he pushed Reke to SF. Again if I were Reke I would go to Smart ask to come off the bench in a 3 guard rotation and then plan on leaving in a year.
Reke is put in a position to succeed when he has the ball. On the break or breaking the defense in the 1/2 court he has to start with the ball in his hands with his current skill set. We learned under WP that Reke can't just wing it like a pure point guard like Nash when he has the ball in his hands because he tends to over dribble get into the offense slow and go into hero mode. So if Tyreke has the ball in his hands then he needs a structured offense and until it becomes habit he needs to be told from the sideline which play to run when and those plays need to tell him when to move the ball and where.
On a team wide view if you designed an offense taking his and the other guys skill set into account you would find that he and MT can actually play beside each other and IT can come off the bench for one or the other and then after a bit of rest the one who didn't go out first would then exit..... This is of course a 3 guard rotation dunno if smart has heard of it or not. We don't need scoring for our SF position we need defense there and defense in at least the 1 or 2 because our wing defense is horrible. We need to get WS 15-20 minutes a night and we need to stop trying to get as small as possible.
Small ball is hard for me to watch it hurts because its a cop-out you don't want to implement the plays to make it work so you just add more "natural playmakers" to the floor to cover it up.
For the people who will chime in and say we tried him at PG for 2 years I would say that we didn't take the second step of creating plays and have him run them and thats why it failed. Not because he can't pass or can't see the floor but because he isn't sure what is right and what is the wrong thing to do and our "coaches" have failed to train him. I like IT and I was one of the first to say he would surprise us after watching some stuff about him after Dime started his diary but he is a change of pace guard and I think it hurt us when he pushed Reke to SF. Again if I were Reke I would go to Smart ask to come off the bench in a 3 guard rotation and then plan on leaving in a year.
Ohhh. Thornton would slap me in the face? Big freaking whoop.
Read my comments again. I didn't compare Reke to Cousins. I compared the situation of bringing Reke off the bench in favor of Thornton to the situation of bringing Cousins off the bench in favor of Hayes because, IMHO, both situations are equally ridiculous. Thornton can and has successfully come off the bench and played admirably.
You guys can't have it both ways. In one post you talk about the future and in the next you're talking about right now.
Our problem is that we have a bunch of potentially good players but they do not fit together into anything remotely resembling a cohesive team. We can talk ourselves blue in the face but nothing is going to get better until we get players that do come together as a team.
Reke had to be told and taught to take account of where his teammates were and to map the court this year. Even with a more structured offense, the gameplan would break down as soon as the first option was taken away.
But it's not just his inability to run a half-court offense. Even his kickouts, which was supposed to be his bread and butter pass, were often off target and way late.
PG is not a solution.
The reason he is not getting better is the same reason MT "developed" when he got here. MT is the same player now as he was when he entered the league. He was absolutely atrocious in NO at the beginning of the season last year because he was not being used correctly, much like Tyreke right now. You put Reke on the right team with a competent coach and the right teammates and he will be great. I bet you could switch him with Westbrook and OKC would still be contending right now. The cost to reward of giving up on Reke right now is just not very good. Like you said, he is a starter in this league and has been since he started playing in the NBA. The best you could do is trade him for a high pick that is a can't miss and I don't think any team does that trade because Evans will never be the number one guy on a contender. Just doesn't have the attitude for it in my opinion. That said, it is difficult to get players of Reke's caliber, especially for small market teams. There have been maybe 5 players in the last 3 drafts that are at the same level as Reke so far. For every Reke, there is an Evan Turner, Derrick Favors, or in the worst case a Hasheem Thabeet.
JT has only slowly but steadily improved since his rookie year. Most players do. I would not say he has broken out. TWill was always talented but needed a change of scenery and a wake up call. I think it has more to do with that than being part of this team. DMC was always going to be great. You could tell from his first summer league game. Great centers can be great without having the right players around them. That is much more difficult for guards since so much of their games revolve around other players. Reke needs the right teammates around him in order to be effective, unlike Cousins. That is why great centers are so important. Just dump the ball into them and get out of the way. Westphal couldn't figure that out and it got him fired. If he is still the coach, we are probably talking about the disappointment that Boogie has been during his 2nd year.
kingsnation
All-Star
So was Kevin Martin. Doesn't mean you build a team around him. Thornton is certainly producing better offensively right now. However, he is far from the better player, right now or ever.
Ask 30 NBA owners/GMs these 2 questions:
1. Who would you rather start a franchise with? Reke or MT?
2. Who would you rather have on your team right now? Reke or MT?
30 out of 30 answer Tyreke and there's not even a hesitation. Unfortunately, some Kings Fans just don't see Tyreke's value
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vikinginferno
Starter
What? So comparing the situation of Reke coming off the bench in favor of Thornton to Cousins coming off the bench in favor of Hayes isn't comparing Reke to Cousins and Thornton to Hayes at all? Ok, I will take a step back then. You are saying that it is the same as benching a guy who averages 19 ppg and 11 rpg and something like 25 and 11 in the past month for a guy who does basically nothing for the team in Hayes. At the least, you are saying the talent disparity between Tyreke and Thornton is comparable to DeMarcus and Hayes, which is absolutely ridiculous. Those 2 situations are not equally ridiculous.
The reason I was talking about right now was because you said that Tyreke is better than Thornton (which means current) and I was saying that really isn't necessarily true. Either way, you have to look at both how players play currently and how you see them in the future. The two go hand in hand.
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