[Game] Kings @ Thunder - Sunday, 12/6/15 - 4 pm PST, 7 pm EST

[jdbraver]

If the play wasn't for Gay to hold the ball, then why didn't he call for time when Gay just stood there?

Maybe cuz they were out of had only one that was needed if say Rudy dribbled out of bounds

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Really? You have seen Rudy Iso against a slow center on the perimeter. And who else hits the clutch shot recently? Rondo um no. Cuz well he is hurt and if he wasn't we win this game. Did u excuse Malone when cuz was hurt? Yes or no? Cuz if u blame Karl when cuz is hurt you are a hypocrit. In fact I would say Karl gave us a chance.

I'd just throw my hands up in the air, when the situation comes up at the end of the game again...and say "Iso Rudy". Should we run a play to get an open look for anyone? No, Rudy will take care of it

 

[jdbraver]

Defense wasn't this bad then. Don't recall seeing anything that needed excusing.

Did u yes or no?

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Maybe cuz they were out of had only one that was needed if say Rudy dribbled out of bounds

What good would the timeout have done if he turned the ball over?

 

[jdbraver]

I'd just throw my hands up in the air, when the situation comes up at the end of the game again...and say "Iso Rudy". Should we run a play to get an open look for anyone? No, Rudy will take care of it

And you saw exactly what was drawn up? Did u excuse Malone?

 

[John Galt]

I'm serious done with this clown.
You put the ball in his hands with the game on the line and publicly call him out after he f's up. If it's not lost already, he definitely just lost half that locker room. Screw waiting this out, FIRE Karl tomorrow.

I agree, if he really threw Rudy under the bus like that. I didn't see the interview but that is really bad.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Did u yes or no?

Do you need me to Google that for you?

What part of "Don't recall seeing anything that needed excusing" was unclear? You don't make excuses for people if you don't think that excuses need to be made for them.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

And you saw exactly what was drawn up? Did u excuse Malone?

Excuse Malone? No, his offense and end of game play calls were horrible. He's a good defensive coach

 

[jdbraver]

What good would the timeout have done if he turned the ball over?

Um advance the ball

Do you need me to Google that for you?

What part of "Don't recall seeing anything that needed excusing" was unclear? You don't make excuses for people if you don't think that excuses need to be made for them.

Cuz is hurt the team wins if he isn't or even if he makes those freethrows. Sounds like the coach put the team in position to win. When Malone coaches cuz got hurt the team lost. Yet the difference is you excused Malone for those losses . Did u not?

 

[Gliesian]

The Rudy iso was fine. Defense tightens up to the max and fouls are not called. The chances of some special play working, or Cousins posting up (after playing like crap), are not as good as the guy who's playing well and 9/10 won't dribble it off his damn leg.

 

[jdbraver]

Excuse Malone? No, his offense and end of game play calls were horrible. He's a good defensive coach

Did u excuse him when cuz was hurt? u blame Karl for losing this game with cuz hurt. If cuz is healthy do we lose

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Um advance the ball

How do you advance the ball when you don't have the ball?

Cuz is hurt the team wins if he isn't or even if he makes those freethrows. Sounds like the coach put the team in position to win. When Malone coaches cuz got hurt the team lost. Yet the difference is you excused Malone for those losses . Did u not?

No. Not unless you're using the word "excuse" differently than I am.

 

[206Fan]

https://streamable.com/ocb8

Does anyone know if this was on the final play?

 

[jdbraver]

I'm talking just this game. Karl did not lose it. The team did specifically cuz and everyone else that crap poor ft

 

[jdbraver]

How do you advance the ball when you don't have the ball?


No. Not unless you're using the word "excuse" differently than I am.

You are a hypocrit that won't admit to it.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

You are a hypocrit that won't admit to it.

I don't stipulate to having anything to admit to.

 

[Sac.Kings]

There are lots of problems with this team:
1. Karl. He's done, he just doesn't know what to do with this roster and it's clear to see for even the most clueless fans (not anyone on this board).
2. Cousins: injury or mental, he's just not with it at all. I love Cuz, but he's not even close to being my favorite King, mostly because of that attitude. Can't stand it. I'm just intelligent enough to realize he's a beast when focused and used properly.
3. Rudy: the King of minimal effort on defense and horrible lapses in judgment (his solo fast breaks are cringe worthy), although it's not entirely his fault as he continues to be used incorrectly on the court and asked to do too much.
4. Defense: most nights horrible, but we have showed we are capable of playing solid D, so why don't we? Who knows..

We are a mess, and I don't know what's going to right the ship. We are sinking quickly and I already think that we should forget about the playoffs. I was thinking about this a couple of days ago, but since 2010, who in the entire King's organization is still here that was here 5 years ago and a prominent figure (excluding Grant/Jerry)? Cousins. Every year we have the same issues, and there have been few constant variables, but Cousins is one of them...

I may be potentially warming up to a mega-trade. I am a King's fan first and foremost, and I want to win. It's incredibly frustrating to see the Jazz/Celtics/Suns play better basketball with 1/2 the talent, and even less. I don't care what or who it takes, just make this team enjoyable again. Let me have faith that we can beat teams.

 

[miltonap]

Blame this loss more on Cuz not Karl and I've been anti Karl

 

[New Era]

https://streamable.com/ocb8

Does anyone know if this was on the final play?

What was our future Hall of Famer and great teammate doing over there?

 

[hrdboild]

Eh? I was talking about Kingsgurl. Your responses are perfectly fine. We disagree at times but we engage in proper discussion.

Anyway I just youtubed DeMarcus Cousins post moves and this was the first hit:

The first half of the video we maybe one or two fades, a few more hooks, and you are right that that's definitely a lot more than we've seen so far this season. Then he's got the spin move I already alluded to. But the second half of the video is almost all dribble moves.

Just ask yourself, when's the last time you saw DeMarcus Cousins back his man down, and then turn and shoot a fade away and make it?

I may be simply arguing for style over substance here, or we could just have varying definitions of low post scoring. Perhaps more accurately I don't think Cousins is an elite back to the basket low post player. My point remains that I think Cousins is at his best when he gets the ball at the elbow, facing up. Just in the 4th quarter of this game, Cousins tried to pin Ibaka, received the ball and tried to take a hook but it got blocked. Several other times he caught the ball deep but was unable to finish. Not long after that possession, he got the ball at the elbow, pumpfaked and got his defender in the air. That allowed him to drive and take a shot, which he missed, but was able to get the offensive board because he was in much better position, and then got the basket and a foul on Ibaka on the putback.

For comparison:

I just don't think you understand what you're watching. In that video you posted Cousins backs his man down and spins left finishing with his right hand, spins right finishing with his left hand, fakes one way and steps through the overplay for a dunk, fades away off glass, sheds his man and finishes with a reverse layup. The reason Cousins is so hard to defend on the block is that he'll bait you one way and then come back at you the next play and finish with the other hand. If he's getting two or three touches a game in the post like he is right now it doesn't really matter, but over the course of a game last season when we made a point of posting him up repeatedly he was just playing with defenders showing them one look and then following it up with something completely different. Yes he does have games where his lack of lift is a problem, but more often than not he's able to beat people with craftiness and unpredictability more than brute strength. I don't know that you can see that in a highlight reel.

After this game I don't really have the energy to discuss this in detail right now. We should start a topic about DeMarcus Cousins though that isn't just people sniping at each other about whether or not he's a headcase. Whatever happens with the team is going to happen. Surely there's a safe place somewhere to just appreciate the uniqueness of our star player without any other axes to grind. We may never see another player quite like him.

 

[Kingsgurl]

Eh? I was talking about Kingsgurl. Your responses are perfectly fine. We disagree at times but we engage in proper discussion.

Anyway I just youtubed DeMarcus Cousins post moves and this was the first hit:

The first half of the video we maybe one or two fades, a few more hooks, and you are right that that's definitely a lot more than we've seen so far this season. Then he's got the spin move I already alluded to. But the second half of the video is almost all dribble moves.

Just ask yourself, when's the last time you saw DeMarcus Cousins back his man down, and then turn and shoot a fade away and make it?

I may be simply arguing for style over substance here, or we could just have varying definitions of low post scoring. Perhaps more accurately I don't think Cousins is an elite back to the basket low post player. My point remains that I think Cousins is at his best when he gets the ball at the elbow, facing up. Just in the 4th quarter of this game, Cousins tried to pin Ibaka, received the ball and tried to take a hook but it got blocked. Several other times he caught the ball deep but was unable to finish. Not long after that possession, he got the ball at the elbow, pumpfaked and got his defender in the air. That allowed him to drive and take a shot, which he missed, but was able to get the offensive board because he was in much better position, and then got the basket and a foul on Ibaka on the putback.

For comparison:

I didn't realize you were defining low post scoring with such an emphasis jut backing your man down or other back to the basket moves. Backing a defender down because you outweigh them by 50 to 100 pounds isn't the only thing that defines a great post player. While he can do that, it is not the predominant aspect of his game. DeMarcus is able to be dominant despite the fact that he is only 6'11 and 270 because he does have a pretty varied arsenal, good foot work, great hands. Does his game look like Shaq's? No, Shaq was 7'1 and weighed, what, 350? Shaq absolutely took advantage of his sheer size, and used moves that exploited that advantage. Boogie doesn't have that size, he does have a better face up game than traditional centers, and I don't think that negates the way he is able to make mincemeat of opponents.
Tonights game, we can all agree, along with the last three, have been very UNlike DeMarcus, so drawing any sort of "I saw this tonight, so this means Boogie is this" kind of conclusion is a red herring and really not germane to the conversation

 

[Bosnian Diehard]

https://streamable.com/ocb8

Does anyone know if this was on the final play?

It was when we were losing in the 3rd Q I believe.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Did u excuse him when cuz was hurt? u blame Karl for losing this game with cuz hurt. If cuz is healthy do we lose

This team's not going anywhere, with how it's currently constructed, whether Cousins is 100%, 85%, or 60%

 

[mac]

I didn't realize you were defining low post scoring with such an emphasis jut backing your man down or other back to the basket moves. Backing a defender down because you outweigh them by 50 to 100 pounds isn't the only thing that defines a great post player. While he can do that, it is not the predominant aspect of his game. DeMarcus is able to be dominant despite the fact that he is only 6'11 and 270 because he does have a pretty varied arsenal, good foot work, great hands. Does his game look like Shaq's? No, Shaq was 7'1 and weighed, what, 350? Shaq absolutely took advantage of his sheer size, and used moves that exploited that advantage. Boogie doesn't have that size, he does have a better face up game than traditional centers, and I don't think that negates the way he is able to make mincemeat of opponents.
Tonights game, we can all agree, along with the last three, have been very UNlike DeMarcus, so drawing any sort of "I saw this tonight, so this means Boogie is this" kind of conclusion is a red herring and really not germane to the conversation

It's not just about backing down with size though. Hrdboild made a good point that Cousins this season has looked very different even when he's gotten post touches. Looking at the highlight reel from last season I do see where you are coming from, so maybe my memory has been a little short. Shaq backed down guys with sheer size and athleticism, then you've got guys like Garnett and Duncan who are very good at turning to create space for a fadeaway. IMO the difference between Cousins and them is that like you said, Cousins has a much more varied arsenal and is able to work from the perimeter a lot more. But he also doesn't have that go-to move in the post that those guys did. These are of course the highlights but if we have indeed been watching the same games, you know that Cousins is bothered by length. He doesn't have the same kind of explosiveness that Shaq had once he gets deep position, and so often isn't able to finish. Call it bad finishing around the rim, or refs not calling fouls when he gets whacked, whatever. Because of that, I think Cousins is best played where he has room to take his man off the dribble. That's still his main strength and his "go-to move" of sorts. Obviously having him camping out at the 3 point line is silly and I don't understand why we've been doing that so much. I look over Cousins' career and the things he's been best in are passing from the high post when we run a backdoor play and taking guys off the dribble. His FG% is pretty terrible for a true low post scorer, and I think it would still be (unproven because I'm no stat expert) if we look at his FG% excluding the 3 pointers and outside shots over his career.

 

[jdbraver]

This team's not going anywhere, with how it's currently constructed, whether Cousins is 100%, 85%, or 60%

And that is all Karl's fault?

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

And that is all Karl's fault?

It's not all anybody's fault

 

[hrdboild]

I didn't realize you were defining low post scoring with such an emphasis jut backing your man down or other back to the basket moves. Backing a defender down because you outweigh them by 50 to 100 pounds isn't the only thing that defines a great post player. While he can do that, it is not the predominant aspect of his game. DeMarcus is able to be dominant despite the fact that he is only 6'11 and 270 because he does have a pretty varied arsenal, good foot work, great hands. Does his game look like Shaq's? No, Shaq was 7'1 and weighed, what, 350? Shaq absolutely took advantage of his sheer size, and used moves that exploited that advantage. Boogie doesn't have that size, he does have a better face up game than traditional centers, and I don't think that negates the way he is able to make mincemeat of opponents.
Tonights game, we can all agree, along with the last three, have been very UNlike DeMarcus, so drawing any sort of "I saw this tonight, so this means Boogie is this" kind of conclusion is a red herring and really not germane to the conversation

It's not just about backing down with size though. Hrdboild made a good point that Cousins this season has looked very different even when he's gotten post touches. Looking at the highlight reel from last season I do see where you are coming from, so maybe my memory has been a little short. Shaq backed down guys with sheer size and athleticism, then you've got guys like Garnett and Duncan who are very good at turning to create space for a fadeaway. IMO the difference between Cousins and them is that like you said, Cousins has a much more varied arsenal and is able to work from the perimeter a lot more. But he also doesn't have that go-to move in the post that those guys did. These are of course the highlights but if we have indeed been watching the same games, you know that Cousins is bothered by length. He doesn't have the same kind of explosiveness that Shaq had once he gets deep position, and so often isn't able to finish. Call it bad finishing around the rim, or refs not calling fouls when he gets whacked, whatever. Because of that, I think Cousins is best played where he has room to take his man off the dribble. That's still his main strength and his "go-to move" of sorts. Obviously having him camping out at the 3 point line is silly and I don't understand why we've been doing that so much. I look over Cousins' career and the things he's been best in are passing from the high post when we run a backdoor play and taking guys off the dribble. His FG% is pretty terrible for a true low post scorer, and I think it would still be (unproven because I'm no stat expert) if we look at his FG% excluding the 3 pointers and outside shots over his career.

Good stuff, both of you. I'd much rather have this kind of a discussion than one about who's to blame for the last loss.

Part of the difficulty with our roster is that we don't have plug and play players who do one or two things at an elite level. We have a collection of thoroughly unique star players. Name another PG who plays like Rondo in today's NBA (Elfrid Payton is the closest but he's still got a long ways to go as a playmaker). Name another C with Cousin's arsenal of inside and outside moves. Rudy Gay showed the last two seasons that he can excel if you use him in a certain way (hint -- iso plays with the ball at the top of the arc is not it). Rondo has adapted the best to George Karl's system, but he looks lost too when Darren is on the floor and handling the ball. I'm convinced that there's a playoff team to be made with these guys but there may not be a perfect coach out there to run it. It's not just talent that separates a 22-0 team like the Warriors and a "can't get out of 1st gear" mess like our Kings this year. A fair amount of luck plays into it too. I don't think Golden State's front office even knew what they had until they had it. We're still hoping to hit upon a combination that works, but I think we have pieces here worth building around as we continue to hunt for that elusive tonic known as "good chemistry".

 

[mac]

I just don't think you understand what you're watching. In that video you posted Cousins backs his man down and spins left finishing with his right hand, spins right finishing with his left hand, fakes one way and steps through the overplay for a dunk, fades away off glass, sheds his man and finishes with a reverse layup. The reason Cousins is so hard to defend on the block is that he'll bait you one way and then come back at you the next play and finish with the other hand. If he's getting two or three touches a game in the post like he is right now it doesn't really matter, but over the course of a game last season when we made a point of posting him up repeatedly he was just playing with defenders showing them one look and then following it up with something completely different. Yes he does have games where his lack of lift is a problem, but more often than not he's able to beat people with craftiness and unpredictability more than brute strength. I don't know that you can see that in a highlight reel.

After this game I don't really have the energy to discuss this in detail right now. We should start a topic about DeMarcus Cousins though that isn't just people sniping at each other about whether or not he's a headcase. Whatever happens with the team is going to happen. Surely there's a safe place somewhere to just appreciate the uniqueness of our star player without any other axes to grind. We may never see another player quite like him.

Yep we can definitely agree on that.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

And that is all Karl's fault?

Is it all Karl's fault? Of course not. Is it mostly Karl's fault. Yes. Why? Because he's supposed to be the grown up, that's why.

There's little with how this team is constructed. What's really wrong is how the constructs are being utilized. Cousins, in particular. One way or another, Karl is enabling Cousins' poor decision making: either he's telling him to go out there and do that, or he's not disciplining him when he does it on his own accord.

Karl is doing such an alarming job coaching for 35+ minutes of every game that, even with the fairly predictable good stretch, the game seems as if it comes down to the last few minutes, and then everybody wants to look at those few minutes, and act like the other 35 or so minutes when he was getting outcoached don't count. This team is better than our record: we're the anti-Jazz.

 

[jdbraver]

Is it all Karl's fault? Of course not. Is it mostly Karl's fault. Yes. Why? Because he's supposed to be the grown up, that's why.

There's little with how this team is constructed. What's really wrong is how the constructs are being utilized. Cousins, in particular. One way or another, Karl is enabling Cousins' poor decision making: either he's telling him to go out there and do that, or he's not disciplining him when he does it on his own accord.

Karl is doing such an alarming job coaching for 35+ minutes of every game that, even with the fairly predictable good stretch, the game seems as if it comes down to the last few minutes, and then everybody wants to look at those few minutes, and act like the other 35 or so minutes when he was getting outcoached don't count. This team is better than our record: we're the anti-Jazz.

This game? No it's cuz fault it's the players fault. This game is on them period. Karl put them in a position to win