Kings extend offer to Chuck Hayes - 4 yr $20 mil

[Larry David]

They can afford it, or are a broke joke. As an NBA owner, when you have this much cap space, and it was the goal to achieve this much cap space, then you must have the money to fill up that cap space. If the Maloofs can't even afford a 50M per year payroll, then this team should have been sold yesterday. The onlything in the NBA which should prevent owners from spending on top talent, is a salary cap, and not having room(or another scenario which doesn't apply here, regarding saving room for extensions). If you have the room, you spend.

They kept saying, "We'll spend as soon as we get cap" because fans don't want to hear their owners say, "Look, we can't spend any money on this team because it looks like our casino is going to get forclosed on and we've got to try to stop that." A lot of the trades to dump salary were for the same reason.

The spin last summer was "Oh, we've got cap now, but we want to wait for the new CBA. We don't want to overpay. We'll spend our money to get impact players."

And we go right out and take on overpaid Salmons and overpay Hayes.

They appear to be either dumb or liars. You can pick.

 

[rainmaker]

What I can point to is history, and histoy says that no one wants to play for Sacramento.

When was the last time we signed a free agent for 10 million per? Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we had brought back Dalembert for that number it may have been the highest salary free agent signing the Kings have ever made. Ever.

Free Agents .. truely unrestriced free agents ( like Dalembert ) almost always go to bigger markets or more competitive teams. We are a small market with a bad team. Good luck bringing anyone here until we get better.

For some perspective .. people consider Boston a big market basketball team with a rich basketball history. You would think guys would want to play there, right? Boston can't even attract free agents. Chris Paui said he wouldn't resign with the Celtics if they traded for him. It took Danny Ainge and Doc Rivers months to convince KG to play there. If Boston can't get big time NBA talent to play there how is Sacramento supposed to attract free agents? The team may not even stay here.

That is why we have to build our team through the draft and via trades. Petrie has done a great job in the draft and a decent job on trades. If we are going to get ourselfs another big peice it will have to come from one of those two places, because guys are not going to come here willingly.

You're right on looking at history, but let me ask you, when in recent history have we had more cap room then any team in the league? We're in a different situation, with more young talent then ever before. So yes we can look at history, but history isn't linear. It doesn't always cross over if the situations are different.

Yeah, I know it's pretty tough attracting big name FA's here. But, we never will if we always low ball them. Then we're out of the race before it's started. Also doesn't excuse this signing. This signing only makes sense if we spend on either Daly, or a replacement. If not, we through 20M down the toilet. So what's the point of lowballing the difference makers, if we're consistently throwing away mid level money?

Vlade was the last FA we signed to a good size contract, if my memory is correct.

 

[iowamcnabb]

I actually like the signing. It's a reasonable contract, he has a defined role, and he has been consistent thru his entire career dating back to college. He is known as a leader, is a true veteran that has played on some winning teams and is well liked by coaches. Cousins, Hayes, Thompson and Hickson form a diversely talented frontcourt that provide a good blend of offense defense and rebounding.

 

[kingofthejungle]

They kept saying, "We'll spend as soon as we get cap" because fans don't want to hear their owners say, "Look, we can't spend any money on this team because it looks like our casino is going to get forclosed on and we've got to try to stop that." A lot of the trades to dump salary were for the same reason.

The spin last summer was "Oh, we've got cap now, but we want to wait for the new CBA. We don't want to overpay. We'll spend our money to get impact players."

And we go right out and take on overpaid Salmons and overpay Hayes.

They appear to be either dumb or liars. You can pick.

Well, I won't argue about the Maloofs being liers AND dumb, that's actually pretty well established. But free agency doesn't officially begin until Friday, so some of your comments may be "jumping the shark" a bit. Lets see what else is in store. The Kings may only have about five million left before they hit the salary floor after re-signing Thornton and acquiring Hayes, but that doesn't preclude them from a massive sign and trade involving Dalembert or an even larger deal that packages 2-3 players (one of which may include a re-signed Dally). A bit early to condemn the organization as a whole, but I support any badmouthing of the Maloofs. I despise them!

 

[Section 101]

You're right on looking at history, but let me ask you, when in recent history have we had more cap room then any team in the league? We're in a different situation, with more young talent then ever before. So yes we can look at history, but history isn't linear. It doesn't always cross over if the situations are different.

Yeah, I know it's pretty tough attracting big name FA's here. But, we never will if we always low ball them. Then we're out of the race before it's started. Also doesn't excuse this signing. This signing only makes sense if we spend on either Daly, or a replacement. If not, we through 20M down the toilet. So what's the point of lowballing the difference makers, if we're consistently throwing away mid level money?

Vlade was the last FA we signed to a good size contract, if my memory is correct.

brad miller sign and trade

 

[cuad]

Cousins, Hayes, Thompson and Hickson form a diversely talented frontcourt that provide a good blend of offense defense and rebounding.

Yes. It's just missing shot blocking. Now the way I see it: Hickson offers the least to this group. Cousins is the star. Thompson is the do-it-all back up and Hayes has excellent character, BBIQ and defense. Any of Hickson's strengths are already covered by the other three, which says to me that he's expendable and I imagine that he'll be in a trade for that shot blocking center.

Of course I'm forgetting that we have Whiteside... That must be Petrie's insurance in case plan A fails. It's not bad.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

 

[SacTownKid]

Which is probably why all the good teams are engaged in bidding wars for the big shotblockers, and we could wrap up the chihuahua for $5mil per.

Note: chewing away at our cap for a middling undersized scrapper becomes a much much better move if we somehow ALSO score the shotblocker that signing Hayes doesn't cover in the least. Get both Hayes and a shotblocker and it sucks for JT, but you approach critical mass for actually becoming a defensive team. Sign Hayes INSTEAD of a shotblocker and you are a blithering idiot, and I wish wish wish I could be the GM across from you and pound your midgets into dust just as I have been doing for decades.

Like who? Dalembert? I know most of the teams that have been linked to him can only offer the MLE, Houston is the only one with the money but all it takes is 1.

I can remember the years when this team didn't even have one shot blocking presence, not one. Did Hassan Whiteside disappear?

 

[Larry David]

That's good power point. Well done EMuss.

 

[kingofthejungle]

Yes. It's just missing shot blocking. Now the way I see it: Hickson offers the least to this group. Cousins is the star. Thompson is the do-it-all back up and Hayes has excellent character, BBIQ and defense. Any of Hickson's strengths are already covered by the other three, which says to me that he's expendable and I imagine that he'll be in a trade for that shot blocking center.

Of course I'm forgetting that we have Whiteside... That must be Petrie's insurance in case plan A fails. It's not bad.

I disagree a bit. Hickson is easily the most athletic and has the second highest upside. Not particulary "expendable."

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

That's good power point. Well done EMuss.

That one brings back some pretty bad memories.

 

[SacTownKid]

You're right on looking at history, but let me ask you, when in recent history have we had more cap room then any team in the league? We're in a different situation, with more young talent then ever before. So yes we can look at history, but history isn't linear. It doesn't always cross over if the situations are different.

Yeah, I know it's pretty tough attracting big name FA's here. But, we never will if we always low ball them. Then we're out of the race before it's started. Also doesn't excuse this signing. This signing only makes sense if we spend on either Daly, or a replacement. If not, we through 20M down the toilet. So what's the point of lowballing the difference makers, if we're consistently throwing away mid level money?

Vlade was the last FA we signed to a good size contract, if my memory is correct.

We'll see what happens on friday, but when you are a young team you have to be careful not to eliminate your flexibility. Odds are at least minor changes will need to be made but if you flood the cap with a bunch of guys that clog your cap (5 million a season on one guy doesn't count, 15 for Chandler or Nene could hurt bad if it's not enough impact per dollar) it makes it very difficult to make those changes. I say go into the year and see what you have first, then make the determination about what you need. Next summer or at the deadline see what's out there and package some of that young talent for need.

 

[SacTownKid]

I disagree a bit. Hickson is easily the most athletic and has the second highest upside. Not particulary "expendable."

Yeah, and if the Kings end up needing talent over anything else in that frontcourt you just cost yourself a potential fringe all star type.

 

[Arby's Roast Beef]

I actually think this was a good signing a vacuum. Hayes had a remarkably good year last year--I actually had him as a top 20 center last year (#16). Last year I had him #29th, so I think we can split the difference and say maybe he's a top 25 center in this league--for now. And that's the critical part.

We all know the book on Hayes: he's an offensive wreck who has the funkiest looking hitch (albeit improved) on his shot--take a look at the dude's free throws. He's a player who plays within himself and knows his limitations though, which makes him a role player all the way. But why I thought he was a top 20 center last year is that he does have some useful tricks--he's a good enough rebounder, a very good passer for a "big", and has quick hands to sideswipe for steals. He also has a toughness rep surrounding him, although his defense is overrated. Individually, he has some good defensive chops and instincts, but at the end of the day he's an average defender. People have already brought up the shift from Yao to Hayes as starting center transformed the Rockets to a poor defensive team overnight, and yes, Hayes deserves some of the blame there.

When I mentioned critical part, I just have to wonder about 6'6" PFs or Cs in general. Hayes isn't a scorer or a guy who relies on freakish athleticism, but undersized bigs peak early, and it could be a downward slope for Hayes from this point forward. That's why I think he's worth the $5mil a year deal now, but two years later, maybe...not? I'd prefer if it were less years. 3 would seem much better. The guy is serviceable but not a gamechanger--he won't make poor teams mediocre alone, he's just a cog guy. He keeps the engine running, but he won't start it. And as an a guy playing two or three positions above his listed height, that's a bit scary.

 

[kingsboi]

If this is true, wtf Petrie? your first FA signing goes to Chuck Hayes? I mean don't get me wrong, this guy doesn't get bullied around down the block, he holds his own but my god is he undersized. That's what worries me when we have to play big frountcourts. I don't know what to make of this signing just yet.

 

[Bricklayer]

Like who? Dalembert? I know most of the teams that have been linked to him can only offer the MLE, Houston is the only one with the money but all it takes is 1.

I can remember the years when this team didn't even have one shot blocking presence, not one. Did Hassan Whiteside disappear?

Yes, you can remeber a whole bunch of very crappy years, as can I.

And Whiteside is a complete unknown. A maybe. A hope. Nothing more. He was vaporware as a rookie. He certianly in no rational calculation could be expected to emerge as a starter capable of playing next to Cousins in the space of the next 3 weeks. We've got two years, three if you count qualifying offer, until Tyreke leaves us for a serious team that knows how to win. One more before Cousins follows him out the door. We NEED to step forward NOW. Not years from now. NOW. If we don't show we are serious in the immediate future, our future is gone. That's the reality of the modern NBA.

 

[Elektrik]

The lockout had almost made me forget about the pee poor GM we have these days.

Some say "in Petrie we trust". I did before. I dont now. Was he a great GM back in the day? Perhaps, but maybe he just got lucky and the stars all fell into place with Webber, and Vlade, et al... ( 12 years ago I might remind everyone) What has he shown us in recent years? Anyway, he has been given as much latitude as possible after all these years. He has been getting along on his reputation far too long. Its time to make things happen now. There is no more next year. No more excuses. nop more living off a reputation that was developed over a decade ago.

 

[Larry David]

The Kings and Rockets may end up swapping Hayes for Sam, because the Kings paid market for Hayes but not market for Sam.

I'd rather pay market for Morrey and let Petrie go. The fact that Morrey won't match Hayes and might spend his money on Sam instead speaks volumes.

 

[LPKingsFan]

Agree with Arby's above. On it's own, this deal is fine by me. Hayes is a solid defender, and will fit in fine as a quality roleplayer. Having been promised robust free agency activity this year, however, it certainly comes as a disappointment. Now, if Dalembert signs somewhere for $12 million+, and Chandler $15, I might feel better about Hayes for $5. But I'd like to see something more from th front office, and now the thought of letting Thornton walk and signing JJ Barea is going to keep me up all night...

 

[Elektrik]

.

They appear to be either dumb or liars. You can pick.

Cant they be both?

 

[Tetsujin]

They are also going to be paying twice as much as us though.

Try three times as much

 

[Tetsujin]

Lastly, signing Hayes is not a return to "midget ball." Cousins has the same standing reach as Shaq. Whiteside's is slightly greater when not wearing flip flops (see last year's combine). Thompson is a full bodied 6'11" with a good wingspan and improved athleticism (really impressed at Goon Squad Classic) That's 3 6'11" or taller guys right there, which is comprable to other high level teams.

4 actually since we still have Donte.

 

[SacTownKid]

Yes, you can remeber a whole bunch of very crappy years, as can I.

And Whiteside is a complete unknown. A maybe. A hope. Nothing more. He was vaporware as a rookie. He certianly in no rational calculation could be expected to emerge as a starter capable of playing next to Cousins in the space of the next 3 weeks. We've got two years, three if you count qualifying offer, until Tyreke leaves us for a serious team that knows how to win. One more before Cousins follows him out the door. We NEED to step forward NOW. Not years from now. NOW. If we don't show we are serious in the immediate future, our future is gone. That's the reality of the modern NBA.

We're talking about shot blocking, it took me about half of one summer league game to realize this kid can block like an MF. If you step forward NOW, sign role players to major money (Hayes isn't major) and end up with a team unable to facilitate moves when you need to, you WILL end up losing your stars. This team is still an unknown and it's very important that you don't dictate everything you do by pure need and completely throw the players and money out of the equation. Dalembert isn't a cure all and has major weaknesses associated with his game, he is not the perfect compliment to Cousins. In some ways he is, in others he's not. I was pushing for them to play together from day one, I saw it, I was glad I saw it, and what I saw were some serious flaws. I assume Geoff saw the same.

I agree there comes a point where it's time to **** or get off the pot, now might not be it. However, talent trumps all and talent can be moved for whatever just about whenever. Dalembert on his last big money contract didn't seem to have much trade value considering what he was dealt for.

 

[SacTownKid]

The Kings and Rockets may end up swapping Hayes for Sam, because the Kings paid market for Hayes but not market for Sam.

I'd rather pay market for Morrey and let Petrie go. The fact that Morrey won't match Hayes and might spend his money on Sam instead speaks volumes.

Look at the respective situations though. Cousins and Hayes is not exactly the same thing as Scola and Hayes. I'd say you certainly need size next to Scola. Hayes can now comfortably swing between PF and C because Cousins can do the same.

 

[Bricklayer]

What I can point to is history, and histoy says that no one wants to play for Sacramento.

When was the last time we signed a free agent for 10 million per? Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we had brought back Dalembert for that number it may have been the highest salary free agent signing the Kings have ever made. Ever.

Free Agents .. truely unrestriced free agents ( like Dalembert ) almost always go to bigger markets or more competitive teams. We are a small market with a bad team. Good luck bringing anyone here until we get better.

For some perspective .. people consider Boston a big market basketball team with a rich basketball history. You would think guys would want to play there, right? Boston can't even attract free agents. Chris Paui said he wouldn't resign with the Celtics if they traded for him. It took Danny Ainge and Doc Rivers months to convince KG to play there. If Boston can't get big time NBA talent to play there how is Sacramento supposed to attract free agents? The team may not even stay here. As of right now it is the most unstable place to play in the entire league.

That is why we have to build our team through the draft and via trades. Petrie has done a great job in the draft and a decent job on trades. If we are going to get ourselfs another big peice it will have to come from one of those two places, because guys are not going to come here willingly.

No, we've BROUGHT BACK multiple guiys for good money. Some dude named Webber being perhaps the most famous. But Martin, Bibby, Christie etc. etc.

But atracting new guys? No that's where the small market curse is in full effect. Vlade remains the biggest, and despiut being an important figure for us this was a guy platooning with Matt Geiger at the time he signed with us.

 

[Bricklayer]

We're talking about shot blocking, it took me about half of one summer league game to realize this kid can block like an MF. If you step forward NOW, sign role players to major money (Hayes isn't major) and end up with a team unable to facilitate moves when you need to, you WILL end up losing your stars. This team is still an unknown and it's very important that you don't dictate everything you do by pure need and completely throw the players and money out of the equation. Dalembert isn't a cure all and has major weaknesses associated with his game, he is not the perfect compliment to Cousins. In some ways he is, in others he's not. I was pushing for them to play together from day one, I saw it, I was glad I saw it, and what I saw were some serious flaws. I assume Geoff saw the same.

I agree there comes a point where it's time to **** or get off the pot, now might not be it. However, talent trumps all and talent can be moved for whatever just about whenever. Dalembert on his last big money contract didn't seem to have much trade value considering what he was dealt for.

He was traded for a young starting quality center, or so they thoguht. And a scrapper near and dear to their new coach's heart. They would never trade him unless they got back a young center to start. And how many of those exactly were there available aroudn the league? They actually liked that package.

 

[SacTownKid]

The Kings obviously have rarely been in the financial situation they are right now during Petries tenure. I can't recall the Kings having this much space, let alone with the YOUNGEST team in the league. Also, I'm sorry, but in the talent department alone this is a fairly weak free agent class, we all knew this for a long time. No matter how many times you look at the list you're not going to see that huge dreamy free agent that is a must have. Wouldn't mind getting any of them but it's not a no brainer here and with the new CBA I think you're looking at a two max star limit moving forward. It's like the draft, getting a high pick is great and all, but at some point you have to stop celebrating the number and really look at the player representing that number.

 

[SacTownKid]

He was traded for a young starting quality center, or so they thoguht. And a scrapper near and dear to their new coach's heart. They would never trade him unless they got back a young center to start. And how many of those exactly were there available aroudn the league? They actually liked that package.

And how has Noc been working for them? haha. Good for them, I on the other hand see Dalembert as an expiring getting back a worse deal, something the Kings have had to do repeatedly while getting out of a rebuild on the fly. Something that teams like the Magic and the Cavs fumbled themselved into because at some point, it's all you can do, trade for worse deals hoping for a quick fix.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

This is the other thing I don't get. Who else is going to offer Hayes this much? If there is a 2.5 mill exception for those under the cap, doesn't Hayes fit that salary range far more?

Neither the fit nor the money makes sense.

I read that the Celtics were looking at giving their MLE to Hayes as well

 

[Glenn]

I heard it also. Sounds like it's official.

Most certainly. If you heard it, it has to be true. Unless the note above this is true, of course.