[Game] Kings @ Clippers - Sunday, Jan. 27 - 12:30PT, 3:30ET

Line-up of: Shumpert, WCS, Hield, Fox, Jackson has a -30.6 net rating

Line-up of: Bogdan, WCS, Hield, Fox, Bagley has a -14.7 net rating

Line-up of: Shumpert, Bogdan, WCS, Fox, Bagley has a -22.8 net rating

Those line-ups all have decent minutes and all suck. We don’t play small ball well, Bogi/Bagley/WCS has a -13.6 Net Rating and doesn’t function well.
 
I never wanted to reflexively bash WCS. But, I just think we've seen enough. Please trade for someone who has some low post skill or is good defender or good forbid both. His superpower is catching/finishing well timed ally oops. Am I missing something?
 
I knew not to follow today - the Kings seem to suck against the Clippers.....rebounding I see again is a big problem. Kings 3pt% was a surprise dud, and partially a cause for the loss. Was hoping I'd be wrong, but no.

I will say though its nice to see them go 26/30 at the stripe - one positive out of another loss. Clippers Lou Williams wore a Kings uniform going 2-16, but it wasn't enough, alas. If only he could've shot more.....
 
I never wanted to reflexively bash WCS. But, I just think we've seen enough. Please trade for someone who has some low post skill or is good defender or good forbid both. His superpower is catching/finishing well timed ally oops. Am I missing something?
The not boxing out Harrell when he got the dunk put back says it all.
 
I think regardless of what kind of effort we see at home against Atlanta we either need a line up change or a trade should be made. Team becoming stagnant and a change looks like it could freshen things up a bit. Although, I think by push or shove Bagley will be in the starting line up regularly before the end of the year
 
The Clippers continued with the ass whippin. Coach J talked about how LA is an experienced team of full grown men, and the Kings have growing up to do. I think that is a fair assessment. The Kings were outrebounded, out shot and got killed in the paint.

For the last 10 games the Kings have become a 100 points a game team. I attribute a lot of that to the defenses figuring out the Kings' simple offensive strategy. The remedy is not so easy. The Kings seem to have kind of leveled out and reached a ceiling. It would be great to see the young guys more. Shumpert and Bjelica are not getting it done like earlier in the year. A trade or two could make a big difference.
 
I think regardless of what kind of effort we see at home against Atlanta we either need a line up change or a trade should be made. Team becoming stagnant and a change looks like it could freshen things up a bit. Although, I think by push or shove Bagley will be in the starting line up regularly before the end of the year
Putting him in to replace Beli isn't really a good idea.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
It's not that, they are well aware he's out there. If you see Harrell he's excellent at high-pointing balls and snatching rebounds with his hands, thats what he does, he's very acrobatic too....... he's tough and strong, so it's very difficult to deter him....


What the Kings need is a bruiser to come off the bench, and they dont have that, Koufos is not suitable in this matchup... so it is what it is. They are disadvantaged. Luckily the trade deadline is approaching......
What they need is an athletic bruiser, or a Harrell clone. There are a few guys in the 2nd round that might fill that bill, but would need some development first. Someone like a Gorgui Dieng, or perhaps a Richaun Holmes would fill the bill. I went back and rewatched the 4th quarter, and I'm not sure what all the Willie complaining is about. Harrell scored a total of 4 pts on Willie when Willie was actually guarding him, and that's counting the inbounds play, where Willie started to defend the player who took the ball off the inbounds, who then passed it to Harrell for a backdoor behind Willie. The other was the one where Harrell simply out hustled Willie for the rebound and scored.

I suspect that the one everyone was talking about was when Willie was guarding Harrell out on the perimeter, and Harrell ran Willie into what turned out to be a moving/pushing pick. Willie just flat out stopped, and the only thing I can think of his that he heard the whistle and stopped. Sometimes there's a time delay between when the whistle is blown and when we can hear it on TV. In any event, the basket didn't count.

The reason we lost the game had nothing to do with Willie. It had to do with us shooting 39.8% overall for the game and a paltry 22.2% from the three. By the way, and by no means am I trying to pick on Shumpert, but guess who took the most three pt shots tonight? Yep, Mr. Shumpert. He did shoot 33% from the three tonight, which isn't great, but not totally horrible either. Basically the whole team pretty much sucked from behind the line. Can someone please tell Bjelica to take the open 3 pt shot.
 
24 minutes but look at the other thread of ratings with Bogdan and WCS/Bagley
24 minutes is your definition is "decent"? Fake news, bro . That is what I suspected, the lineup I want to see more of (since apparently Harry is on the outs again) Fox/Buddy/Bogs/MB3/Willie has not been on the floor long enough to definitively conclude whether or not they suck. I don't particularly care if the other lineups have been ineffective relative to this one. There is a big difference between Jackson/Shump versus Buddy. Buddy is the second best three point shooter in the NBA vs two bricklayers. What are you suggesting, because those two lineups don't work, replacing Shump with Buddy or Jackson with Buddy will not work either? C'mon now.
 
24 minutes is your definition is "decent"? Fake news, bro . That is what I suspected, the lineup I want to see more of (since apparently Harry is on the outs again) Fox/Buddy/Bogs/MB3/Willie has not been on the floor long enough to definitively conclude whether or not they suck. I don't particularly care if the other lineups have been ineffective relative to this one. There is a big difference between Jackson/Shump versus Buddy. Buddy is the second best three point shooter in the NBA vs two bricklayers. What are you suggesting, because those two lineups don't work, replacing Shump with Buddy or Jackson with Buddy will not work either? C'mon now.
Look at the 4 man and 3 man combinations in the other thread I posted as they have more minutes (50 mins min per). Almost any combination of Bagley/WCS/Bogi is among our worst combinations.
 
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24 minutes is your definition is "decent"? Fake news, bro . That is what I suspected, the lineup I want to see more of (since apparently Harry is on the outs again) Fox/Buddy/Bogs/MB3/Willie has not been on the floor long enough to definitively conclude whether or not they suck. I don't particularly care if the other lineups have been ineffective relative to this one. There is a big difference between Jackson/Shump versus Buddy. Buddy is the second best three point shooter in the NBA vs two bricklayers. What are you suggesting, because those two lineups don't work, replacing Shump with Buddy or Jackson with Buddy will not work either? C'mon now.
That’s who should be starting IMO.
 
24 minutes is your definition is "decent"? Fake news, bro . That is what I suspected, the lineup I want to see more of (since apparently Harry is on the outs again) Fox/Buddy/Bogs/MB3/Willie has not been on the floor long enough to definitively conclude whether or not they suck. I don't particularly care if the other lineups have been ineffective relative to this one. There is a big difference between Jackson/Shump versus Buddy. Buddy is the second best three point shooter in the NBA vs two bricklayers. What are you suggesting, because those two lineups don't work, replacing Shump with Buddy or Jackson with Buddy will not work either? C'mon now.
Both of these 4 man combinations are over 50 minutes and both are horrible...

B. Bogdanovic, .W. Cauley-Stein, .B. Hield, .M. Bagley III Net Rating -9.9.
B. Bogdanovic, .W. Cauley-Stein, .D. Fox, .M. Bagley III Net Rating -15.
 
I'm going to kick the hornets nest. Has Joeger got the team as far as he can? Meaning, is the team stalled because of the players or the coaching?

Yes, we've exceeded season expectations and he's done a great job bringing Fox along (or did Fox do it himself?). But is this is good as he gets with this type of talent?

Saying there is no one else out there better than Joeger deflects the question. What is the cause of our less than inspiring play as of late?

I think some stubbornness and lack of creativity from coaching staff is part of the issue.
 
Look at the 4 man and 3 man combinations in the other thread I posted as the have more minutes. Almost any combination of Bagley/WCS/Bogi is among our worst combinations.
Okay I will try again: Are you suggesting because those two lineups don't work, replacing Shump/Jackson with Buddy will not work either? Are you saying we should not bother playing that group more than 24 minutes since it will be doomed to fail?

Look I don't think Bagley and Willie is ideal either because I don't think Willie is good. The better the player the more positional variability. When you are good player you make the circumstances work. That is how Isaiah excelled in a "toxic environment" on a team that "did not know how develop young talent". Good players adjust or expand their game regardless of their circumstances. That is the basis to put your best players on the floor and let them to figure it out. Yes, combinations are important but you can get in trouble overthinking it and overlook the obvious. Last year Yogurt was playing Buddy behind Goose Egg Jackson. Let that sink in. Buddy is on pace to set records for threes made. He is pumping in 20 PPG on high efficiency. He is one of the most feared shooters in the league yet he was playing behind a guy who barely has NBA talent!! An all-star caliber player vs an Omri wannabe!

Goose Egg Jackson is shooting 35% FGs in wins and 50% in losses. This is a stark contrast. By definition he is a losing player. When we lose he plays! Do you expect this guy to step up in games that we win? Well, don't expect more than 35% FGs and 26% on threes. Basically he will get you 1 out of 3 two-pointers and 1 out 4 three-pointers while getting bullied on the other end. But when we get routed or he is unguarded by a superior opponent he will suddenly become a 40% shooter. He will get you the empty points. This is a useless player but in the estimation of our coach he was worthy starter last year over Buddy and worthy of significant minutes this year. So we are to trust him now to conclude prematurely the aforementioned lineup is incompatible? Bagley, Bogs, Buddy and Fox are our four best players, certainly 4 out of 5 of our most talented. If we cannot be competitive with this group regardless of the 5th component our rebuild is in trouble. Yet the data is inconclusive. There is stubborn refusal by Yogurt not experiment in the midst of struggles and draw conclusions based on conjecture instead of evidence.

Bagley was hurt psychologically not starting against the Grizzlies and it has thrown him off these last two games but he still put up 14/7 when he is pressing a bit. That is how talented he is. Yogurt is too close to his team to see things clearly, certainly too close minded to make bold moves that could pay off. He doesn't have all the answers. If he did we wouldn't have played like crap over the course of this road trip, lucky to win two games.
 
I tell you what. If basketball were played on paper with just statistical numbers, this whole coaching and GM thing would be a piece of cake.
Dude, there is a reason basketball front offices have rushed to add staffs of basketball analytics people. In fact, Brad Stevens at Butler said if he had the option he would add a stats department. Tracking the numbers of players on the floor is easy and the basketball metrics pros have much better data than what we can pull from NBA stats.

Projecting how other players will fit in and draft picks is the harder part.
 
Okay I will try again: Are you suggesting because those two lineups don't work, replacing Shump/Jackson with Buddy will not work either? Are you saying we should not bother playing that group more than 24 minutes since it will be doomed to fail?

Look I don't think Bagley and Willie is ideal either because I don't think Willie is good. The better the player the more positional variability. When you are good player you make the circumstances work. That is how Isaiah excelled in a "toxic environment" on a team that "did not know how develop young talent". Good players adjust or expand their game regardless of their circumstances. That is the basis to put your best players on the floor and let them to figure it out. Yes, combinations are important but you can get in trouble overthinking it and overlook the obvious. Last year Yogurt was playing Buddy behind Goose Egg Jackson. Let that sink in. Buddy is on pace to set records for threes made. He is pumping in 20 PPG on high efficiency. He is one of the most feared shooters in the league yet he was playing behind a guy who barely has NBA talent!! An all-star caliber player vs an Omri wannabe!

Goose Egg Jackson is shooting 35% FGs in wins and 50% in losses. This is a stark contrast. By definition he is a losing player. When we lose he plays! Do you expect this guy to step up in games that we win? Well, don't expect more than 35% FGs and 26% on threes. Basically he will get you 1 out of 3 two-pointers and 1 out 4 three-pointers while getting bullied on the other end. But when we get routed or he is unguarded by a superior opponent he will suddenly become a 40% shooter. He will get you the empty points. This is a useless player but in the estimation of our coach he was worthy starter last year over Buddy and worthy of significant minutes this year. So we are to trust him now to conclude prematurely the aforementioned lineup is incompatible? Bagley, Bogs, Buddy and Fox are our four best players, certainly 4 out of 5 of our most talented. If we cannot be competitive with this group regardless of the 5th component our rebuild is in trouble. Yet the data is inconclusive. There is stubborn refusal by Yogurt not experiment in the midst of struggles and draw conclusions based on conjecture instead of evidence.

Bagley was hurt psychologically not starting against the Grizzlies and it has thrown him off these last two games but he still put up 14/7 when he is pressing a bit. That is how talented he is. Yogurt is too close to his team to see things clearly, certainly too close minded to make bold moves that could pay off. He doesn't have all the answers. If he did we wouldn't have played like crap over the course of this road trip, lucky to win two games.
I think when you look at the 4 man combinations that include Bagley/WCS and Bogdan they are often poor. It makes sense if you consider Bogdan’s better skill is a pick and roll with a big. If both WCS and Bagley are playing they clog up the lane in which Bogdan likes to operate. Neither WCS or Bagley have an outside shot today that commands defensive respect.
 
Dude, there is a reason basketball front offices have rushed to add staffs of basketball analytics people. In fact, Brad Stevens at Butler said if he had the option he would add a stats department. Tracking the numbers of players on the floor is easy and the basketball metrics pros have much better data than what we can pull from NBA stats.

Projecting how other players will fit in and draft picks is the harder part.
Stats are tool. Not an answer. There is a human element in everything sports related that is not easily told by stats alone.

I have no reason to argue your numbers about WCS/Bogi/Bagley lineups. But what I can say is that Bogi and Bagley lack some chemistry. Bogi immediately looks for WCS on the pick n roll or on the fast break. Marvin can be waving his arms in the same situations and Bogi doesn't give him the ball. I'm not making up any reasons why that happens or who is right or wrong. Maybe Bagley is slightly out of position because often times he is. But that is something the coaches need to SEE and work out to make that lineup work a little better. You find a way to help your best players work well together.
 
Okay I will try again: Are you suggesting because those two lineups don't work, replacing Shump/Jackson with Buddy will not work either? Are you saying we should not bother playing that group more than 24 minutes since it will be doomed to fail?
B. Bogdanovic, .W. Cauley-Stein, .B. Hield, .M. Bagley III Net Rating -9.9.