[Game] 39/82: Kings @ Bulls 12 JAN 2025, 12:30pm PT/3:30pm ET
- Thread starter Mr. S£im Citrus
- Start date
Not really. Let's see.
Monte drafted Davion in 2021 when we already had Fox, Hali, and Buddy, and needed major help in the front court. So yes, that was a red flag. He addressed that problem though by trading Hali and Buddy for Domas. Also, let's not forget how poor our defense was when Davion was drafted. Was he the ideal pick? Could he have drafted someone else and not made the trade? Who knows. Monte clearly thought he could balance out the roster if he drafted Davion, and he did.
In 2022, he drafted Murray. No point discussing this. We did however also add Monk and Kevin, certainly making us guard heavy again. However, our primary guards at that time were Fox, Monk, Kevin, and Davion; the last being a second year player. Any team with hopes of making it to the postseason will try to go with 3 quality guards at least.
The experiment was successful too. Fox made all-star and all-NBA 3rd team. Monk was a serious candidate for SOTY and Kevin had a great year, getting compared to Splash Brothers at times. And yes, we also made the playoffs.
For me, the lost year was 2023. Monte focused on ensuring continuity with the core group. This is a very sensible approach for a franchise that just broke the record for the longest playoff drought, a young roster, two all-stars, COTY, a rookie who showed a huge promise etc. At this time again, the roster was not imbalanced. Yes, we were guard heavy, and could use additional help in the front court. However, our top three guards had all had a great year, and we needed the team to cook to see where we went, particularly as we added Sasha, reupped Lyles, expected growth from Murray, etc.
The imbalance was largely created by two factors:
1. Keon's unexpected and impressive growth from nowhere to an all-defense candidate who can also handle and hit the outside shot.
2. Us signing Carter.
Both these developments are relatively recent (not 3 years). Keon's breakout was towards the end of last year. Carter was signed this year, and missed the season so far. For him at least, we could only speculate how he will perform when he gets on court. Keon's rise did create an imbalance though. We also lost some size when we traded Barnes and got Deebo, forcing Keegan to move up.
So yes, the current imbalance does need to be addressed. Here's are some key differences from 2021-22 though:
1. Our starting front court then was Holmes, Barnes, and Harkless (sometimes replaced by TD). There was clearly room for improvement across the front court.
2. We had a young stud in Tyrese who could get us a young all-star. Seriously, how rare is that?
3. All three members of our current front court are proven, excellent players. Do you trade Fox for an all-star front court player? Assuming you can, you have to send one of these guys to the bench. Not ideal, but I'll be okay with it if it balances out our roster.
4. Do you trade Monk/Kevin for a lower tier player? I don't think Kevin gets us much. Monk will have value, but his contract is a good bargain for us too.
5. It would be silly to trade Devin/Keon. Both are excellent players, exactly the kind we need, on great, friendly contracts.
Clearly, trading Fox makes most sense. Not only can he get the highest value, but depending on what we choose to get, we can also obtain financial flexibility. In some ways, the situation is similar to when we traded Hali. The MAJOR difference is that we were very very weak in the front court then. Right now, we are in the hunt for post season, and might make it too. This puts less pressure to make immediate trades.
I would personally prefer to trade Fox for a package containing multiple draft picks instead of a star (unless we can somehow land a young stud like we did with Domas). The primary reason being that a star will force other changes, which might not necessarily be good. Plus, it will allow financial flexibility.
Finally, while you are quick to blame, you have to realize that multiple GMs failed to fix the problem for over a decade and a half. As I mentioned above, our starting front court at the beginning of 21-22 was Holmes, Barnes, and Harkless. Monte's steering helped us get to the PO two years back, have a winning record last year, and is showing some promise this year, with assets to pull off a trade. If the problem were so easy to fix, wouldn't other GMs over the years have had some success?
Monte drafted Davion in 2021 when we already had Fox, Hali, and Buddy, and needed major help in the front court. So yes, that was a red flag. He addressed that problem though by trading Hali and Buddy for Domas. Also, let's not forget how poor our defense was when Davion was drafted. Was he the ideal pick? Could he have drafted someone else and not made the trade? Who knows. Monte clearly thought he could balance out the roster if he drafted Davion, and he did.
In 2022, he drafted Murray. No point discussing this. We did however also add Monk and Kevin, certainly making us guard heavy again. However, our primary guards at that time were Fox, Monk, Kevin, and Davion; the last being a second year player. Any team with hopes of making it to the postseason will try to go with 3 quality guards at least.
The experiment was successful too. Fox made all-star and all-NBA 3rd team. Monk was a serious candidate for SOTY and Kevin had a great year, getting compared to Splash Brothers at times. And yes, we also made the playoffs.
For me, the lost year was 2023. Monte focused on ensuring continuity with the core group. This is a very sensible approach for a franchise that just broke the record for the longest playoff drought, a young roster, two all-stars, COTY, a rookie who showed a huge promise etc. At this time again, the roster was not imbalanced. Yes, we were guard heavy, and could use additional help in the front court. However, our top three guards had all had a great year, and we needed the team to cook to see where we went, particularly as we added Sasha, reupped Lyles, expected growth from Murray, etc.
The imbalance was largely created by two factors:
1. Keon's unexpected and impressive growth from nowhere to an all-defense candidate who can also handle and hit the outside shot.
2. Us signing Carter.
Both these developments are relatively recent (not 3 years). Keon's breakout was towards the end of last year. Carter was signed this year, and missed the season so far. For him at least, we could only speculate how he will perform when he gets on court. Keon's rise did create an imbalance though. We also lost some size when we traded Barnes and got Deebo, forcing Keegan to move up.
So yes, the current imbalance does need to be addressed. Here's are some key differences from 2021-22 though:
1. Our starting front court then was Holmes, Barnes, and Harkless (sometimes replaced by TD). There was clearly room for improvement across the front court.
2. We had a young stud in Tyrese who could get us a young all-star. Seriously, how rare is that?
3. All three members of our current front court are proven, excellent players. Do you trade Fox for an all-star front court player? Assuming you can, you have to send one of these guys to the bench. Not ideal, but I'll be okay with it if it balances out our roster.
4. Do you trade Monk/Kevin for a lower tier player? I don't think Kevin gets us much. Monk will have value, but his contract is a good bargain for us too.
5. It would be silly to trade Devin/Keon. Both are excellent players, exactly the kind we need, on great, friendly contracts.
Clearly, trading Fox makes most sense. Not only can he get the highest value, but depending on what we choose to get, we can also obtain financial flexibility. In some ways, the situation is similar to when we traded Hali. The MAJOR difference is that we were very very weak in the front court then. Right now, we are in the hunt for post season, and might make it too. This puts less pressure to make immediate trades.
I would personally prefer to trade Fox for a package containing multiple draft picks instead of a star (unless we can somehow land a young stud like we did with Domas). The primary reason being that a star will force other changes, which might not necessarily be good. Plus, it will allow financial flexibility.
Finally, while you are quick to blame, you have to realize that multiple GMs failed to fix the problem for over a decade and a half. As I mentioned above, our starting front court at the beginning of 21-22 was Holmes, Barnes, and Harkless. Monte's steering helped us get to the PO two years back, have a winning record last year, and is showing some promise this year, with assets to pull off a trade. If the problem were so easy to fix, wouldn't other GMs over the years have had some success?
Hard to respond to 10 paragraphs but I will break it up and try.
our forwards leading into the Davion pick were
Barnes
Bagley
Bjelicia
Harkless
Justin James
Louis King
Jabari Parker
Glenn Robinson Iii
Chris Silva
Robert woodard
that list is so blanking bad I believe only Barnes is still getting significant NBA rotation minutes 4 years later. Second round picks he traded for cash in Xavier Tillman and Kenyon Martin Jr are getting more NBA minutes than the forwards he had on his roster going into the Davion Pick.
and what did Monte do.
a) he made zero effort to tank which cost him Franz Wagner
b) he passed on Trey Murphy, Jalen Johnson, Santi Aldama, and Herb Jones to draft Davion Mitchell.
easily in the top 5 of all time worst draft picks.
Trading for Sabonis did absolutely nothing to address the disaster that was our forwards. Nor did it come close to balancing the line-up problem of 1 playable forward in Barnes.
our forwards leading into the Davion pick were
Barnes
Bagley
Bjelicia
Harkless
Justin James
Louis King
Jabari Parker
Glenn Robinson Iii
Chris Silva
Robert woodard
that list is so blanking bad I believe only Barnes is still getting significant NBA rotation minutes 4 years later. Second round picks he traded for cash in Xavier Tillman and Kenyon Martin Jr are getting more NBA minutes than the forwards he had on his roster going into the Davion Pick.
and what did Monte do.
a) he made zero effort to tank which cost him Franz Wagner
b) he passed on Trey Murphy, Jalen Johnson, Santi Aldama, and Herb Jones to draft Davion Mitchell.
easily in the top 5 of all time worst draft picks.
Trading for Sabonis did absolutely nothing to address the disaster that was our forwards. Nor did it come close to balancing the line-up problem of 1 playable forward in Barnes.
drafting Keegan clearly helped stop the bleeding. We were/are still unbalanced but were not bleeding from the neck unbalanced.
and yes the trade for Huerter, the signing and resigning of Malik, the found gem in Keon and the potential of Carter have contributed to the issue. But we still are very thin at forward and some move needs to be made both to get front court assets and to open up space for Keon and Carter.
and yes the trade for Huerter, the signing and resigning of Malik, the found gem in Keon and the potential of Carter have contributed to the issue. But we still are very thin at forward and some move needs to be made both to get front court assets and to open up space for Keon and Carter.
I don't think anyone is arguing against that. The argument is against the logic that picking a forward instead of Davion (or even Tyrese/Carter picks, given our relative guard strength) would have solved the problem.
It would have certainly addressed that to some extent. However, drafting Davion made it easier to trade Tyrese and get Domas. Yes, Davion didn't pan out as expected, but if we had drafted a forward, we likely wouldn't have traded Tyrese.
Bottom line, it takes time to rebuild a roster as bad as ours was, particularly when your only real assets are middle/late lottery picks. Else, it would have been done sooner. We had no stars to trade, nor huge cap space, attractive market, a bunch of draft picks, etc.
As to tanking to get a higher pick, that's not necessarily his decision. Don't know his views on this. However, unless directed by the owner, no GM, particularly a new one, will go that route.
I do have problems with his handling of second round picks, and have mentioned it multiple times. He did strike gold in Keon, but otherwise, has not had much success, and worse, interest, in trying to find useful players in the second round. He can and should be criticized for that, and I have done so myself.
It would have certainly addressed that to some extent. However, drafting Davion made it easier to trade Tyrese and get Domas. Yes, Davion didn't pan out as expected, but if we had drafted a forward, we likely wouldn't have traded Tyrese.
Bottom line, it takes time to rebuild a roster as bad as ours was, particularly when your only real assets are middle/late lottery picks. Else, it would have been done sooner. We had no stars to trade, nor huge cap space, attractive market, a bunch of draft picks, etc.
As to tanking to get a higher pick, that's not necessarily his decision. Don't know his views on this. However, unless directed by the owner, no GM, particularly a new one, will go that route.
I do have problems with his handling of second round picks, and have mentioned it multiple times. He did strike gold in Keon, but otherwise, has not had much success, and worse, interest, in trying to find useful players in the second round. He can and should be criticized for that, and I have done so myself.
I'd say this is completely wrong. If the Kings followed this philosophy they would have drafted someone like Saddiq Bey over Haliburton.
Haliburton netted Sabonis in trade while Bey (who I liked in that draft BTW) is now on his third team.
You draft for talent. Period. Then you have the assets to make other moves. It is by FAR the main reason that OKC is now (and has in the past) been a very competitive team as well as the main reason the Kings have been terrible for most of the last 20 years. One team drafted well and leveraged those assets to make other moves. The other drafted poorly and lacked the talent to win or make deals to improve.
Drafting to fit your roster is what bad teams do. It's how you end up taking Bagley over Doncic because you think he's a better fit with De'Aaron Fox.
Haliburton netted Sabonis in trade while Bey (who I liked in that draft BTW) is now on his third team.
You draft for talent. Period. Then you have the assets to make other moves. It is by FAR the main reason that OKC is now (and has in the past) been a very competitive team as well as the main reason the Kings have been terrible for most of the last 20 years. One team drafted well and leveraged those assets to make other moves. The other drafted poorly and lacked the talent to win or make deals to improve.
Drafting to fit your roster is what bad teams do. It's how you end up taking Bagley over Doncic because you think he's a better fit with De'Aaron Fox.
Yeah, it's weird Kings fans refuse to see this, when we've seen the full scale of drafting BPA (Hali, one of the biggest late lotto hits in the last 10 years) and not BPA (Bagley, one of the worst picks in the last 10 years). Drafting BPA got us one of the best players in our franchise history. Drafting for need and fit cost us a future HoF player.