Kings and free agency - part 4

Bricklayer said:
Should note that:



2) Belinelli is being underestimated a little bit as a ballhandler. he has played a little PG over his career. He's a good passer and smart player. Now for that reason we may start him at SG. But if at some point in the season we lose one of our starting quality PGs for a lengthy span, he might be a key guy in trying to weather that storm because he'll be able to help whoever the backup PG becomes run the team. And with other vets like Koufos and Butler around who just know how to play, maybe we can avoid the deer in headlights look this time.

The simplest answer of course is simply to never have Rondo or Collison miss any time at all. In fact I would be perfectly happy never getting a chance to find out if Curry can hack it or not this season, outside of garbage minutes.
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I agree, Belly is actually a very very decent player maker he can throw passes on this team that imo only Rondo can throw and his ball handling is not bad at all, although he has lost a few steps. We also sort of have the luxury if teams press us to just give to Cousins at mid court and let him bring it up without any pressure really since his man won't be trying to pressure him 99% of the time.
 
Bricklayer said:
Should note that:

1) we are unusual in that we have TWO starting quality PGs. If Rondo is not in permanent decline, two solid starting PGs in fact, not Jameer Nelson well, I guess we can still throw him out there if we have nothing else types. So we have a bonus there in that if our starter gets hurt, the guy who takes his place is more than just a backup trying to step up, he's another starter. Barring real catastrophe with both starting quality guys out, our starting PG position should be stable all season long because of it. The potential hole that can open up is off the bench. We all saw how completely rudderless the bench was last year before Miller arrived.

The simplest answer of course is simply to never have Rondo or Collison miss any time at all. In fact I would be perfectly happy never getting a chance to find out if Curry can hack it or not this season, outside of garbage minutes.
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We do have 2 starting quality PG's... if the Rondo bet goes well, which we are all assuming it will but it's not a given...

Anyway I think that the 3rd PG has a big role... I agree that as long as everyone is healthy he will not be needed, but it's not like our PG's are injury free.
DC just recovered from an injury and played 45 games last year, and Rondo haven't played over 68 games since 09-10, this is the numbers of games he played since:
10-11: 68
11-12: 53
12-13: 38
13-14: 30
14-15: 68 (22 in Boston, 46 in Dallas)

So this 2 not missing any games is not a bet woth taking, everyone talked about going "all-in" this season for a playoff spot in the loaded west... Curry and Dukan aren't players that goes with this mindset.
And sure this players souldn't matter day-to-day, but when they do you better hope you made the right decision and they can contribute.
 
Amit149 said:
We do have 2 starting quality PG's... if the Rondo bet goes well, which we are all assuming it will but it's not a given...

Anyway I think that the 3rd PG has a big role... I agree that as long as everyone is healthy he will not be needed, but it's not like our PG's are injury free.
DC just recovered from an injury and played 45 games last year, and Rondo haven't played over 68 games since 09-10, this is the numbers of games he played since:
10-11: 68
11-12: 53
12-13: 38
13-14: 30
14-15: 68 (22 in Boston, 46 in Dallas)

So this 2 not missing any games is not a bet woth taking, everyone talked about going "all-in" this season for a playoff spot in the loaded west... Curry and Dukan aren't players that goes with this mindset.
And sure this players souldn't matter day-to-day, but when they do you better hope you made the right decision and they can contribute.
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Yeah, I was making a similar point before Rondo came here. Not the biggest Rondo fan (given his behavior and performance the past few years) but one big concern of mine was that he hasn't been healthy. Now that he's here I hope he can play 75+ games and get back to "old" Rondo form. But there is indeed risk here. And hopefully Collison is back at 100%.
 
twslam07 said:
GSW: You mean Curry, Livingston, and Igoudala?
SAS: You mean Parker, Mills, and McCallum?
OKC: You mean Westbrook, Augustin, and Payne?
LAC: You mean Paul, Rivers, Prignoni, Crawford, and Stephenson?
HOU: You mean Lawson, Beverley, and Harden?
DAL: You mean Williams, Harris, Barea, and Felton?
NOP: You mean Evans, Holiday, and Cole?
UTA: You mean Exum, Burks, and Burke?
PHX: You mean Bledsoe, Knight, and Goodwin?

By my count, there is only 1 team who doesn't have someone who can fill in and play the role of 3rd PG (Memphis). That's 1 out of the 10 (2 of the 11 if you include us) who will be competing for a playoff spot this year.

I have no idea why you're trying to relate what Iguodala and Harden do to what Gay and Casspi do. Iguodala and Harden can bring the ball up and run an offense effectively. Gay and Casspi are nowhere near that level.
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I've been following this conversation with amusement up to now, because frankly, I don't give a tinkers damm about our third PG, and to be honest here, Curry isn't a PG. He's a SG in a PG's body. Anyone that's followed his career would agree with me. But your last post is a bit of a stretch. I mean, I see your point, but some of those players aren't PG's. While I appreciate your passion for this subject, I fail to understand it. If for some reason it becomes important down the road, I give you permission to bring it to my attention.

When I left summer league two players had really stood out in the scoring dept and one of them was obviously Curry. He's a player with potential as a scorer, and I believe that's why Vlade decided to invest in him instead of Miller. Rondo isn't known for his shooting ability, and if on occasion Karl wants to play two PG, or ballhandlers together, I think Vlade wanted to give Karl a better option than Rondo/Miller, two non-scorers, if it indeed came to that. Just my humble opinion.
 
Bricklayer said:
Should note that:

1) we are unusual in that we have TWO starting quality PGs. If Rondo is not in permanent decline, two solid starting PGs in fact, not Jameer Nelson well, I guess we can still throw him out there if we have nothing else types. So we have a bonus there in that if our starter gets hurt, the guy who takes his place is more than just a backup trying to step up, he's another starter. Barring real catastrophe with both starting quality guys out, our starting PG position should be stable all season long because of it. The potential hole that can open up is off the bench. We all saw how completely rudderless the bench was last year before Miller arrived.

2) Belinelli is being underestimated a little bit as a ballhandler. he has played a little PG over his career. He's a good passer and smart player. Now for that reason we may start him at SG. But if at some point in the season we lose one of our starting quality PGs for a lengthy span, he might be a key guy in trying to weather that storm because he'll be able to help whoever the backup PG becomes run the team. And with other vets like Koufos and Butler around who just know how to play, maybe we can avoid the deer in headlights look this time.

The simplest answer of course is simply to never have Rondo or Collison miss any time at all. In fact I would be perfectly happy never getting a chance to find out if Curry can hack it or not this season, outside of garbage minutes.
Click to expand...

First on Curry. I do think he's a little better than some on this forum are giving him credit for. I've felt for some time that he was an NBA caliber player and that all he needed was a chance to prove himself. Of course it's always a crap shoot to some extent. I also think that folks should remember that at this point in time in freeagency, were scraping the bottom of the barrow. Any good PG that's left is going to look at our roster, see Collison and Rondo, see there's not many minutes there, and move on to a team with better opportunities. So were talking about what's left, and Miller. I could easily make an argument for Miller as well as Curry.

Hopefully this is all much ado about nothing. If I were a playoff team, perhaps I would be more concerned about my third PG. Truth is, most teams third PG is a young player being developed for the future. We just sent one packing in McCallum. Either he was a victim of capology, or Karl didn't see him fitting into his system. Your guess is as good as mine. As I stated earlier, Curry isn't a PG in the true sense of the word, but he can shoot the ball, and he's a good ballhandler. So my guess is that Vlade wanted to add a little more scoring punch to the team. That said, I certainly hope that our success doesn't depend on Curry.

Hey, for those worried, don't forget that we have Stockton sitting in the wings. :eek:
 
NewArena said:
I just need for Karl to use Cousins the way Malone did

get his butt in the paint and DEEP, please. Early and often. With Karl, he started taking a ton of mid range J's and he was a lot more inefficient
as a result
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One thing I always recommend when making statements of facts, is that you look up said facts. I took the last ten games Cousins played under Karl, In those ten games, he had three triple doubles. But that aside, lets look at the stats in comparison to his year end averages. He shot 47.3% against 46.7% and that includes a horrible game where he shot 29.6%. Throw out that game and he shot 49.3% in nine of those last ten games. His yearly average in blocked shots was 1.7 blocks per game. In the last ten games he averaged 2.3 blocks. His yearly averaged in rebounds was 12.7, but in the last ten games he averaged 15.1 rebounds. His yearly average in assists was 3.6, but in his last ten games he averaged 5.1 assists. His yearly average in steals was 1.5, but in his last ten games he averaged 1.9 steals per game. So I fail to see the inefficiency your referring to. He was used a little differently, but based on this short sampling, he became more effecient.
 
bajaden said:
One thing I always recommend when making statements of facts, is that you look up said facts. I took the last ten games Cousins played under Karl, In those ten games, he had three triple doubles. But that aside, lets look at the stats in comparison to his year end averages. He shot 47.3% against 46.7% and that includes a horrible game where he shot 29.6%. Throw out that game and he shot 49.3% in nine of those last ten games. His yearly average in blocked shots was 1.7 blocks per game. In the last ten games he averaged 2.3 blocks. His yearly averaged in rebounds was 12.7, but in the last ten games he averaged 15.1 rebounds. His yearly average in assists was 3.6, but in his last ten games he averaged 5.1 assists. His yearly average in steals was 1.5, but in his last ten games he averaged 1.9 steals per game. So I fail to see the inefficiency your referring to. He was used a little differently, but based on this short sampling, he became more effecient.
Click to expand...
He was actually right about Cousins being more affective under Malone, and about him taking more Jumpers under Karl.

In the 15 games he played last season under Malone- Cousins shot 51% from the field.
13.5% of his shots were Catch&Shoot and 9.8% were Pullups.

In the 19 games he played last season under Karl- Cousins shot 47.4% from the field (so yes to the less efficient- but there is a small-sample alert).
11.4% of his shots were Catch&Shoot and 14% were Pullups.

So you can see under Karl he took much more pullup shots, but slightly less catch&shoots.
Combined the part Jumpers took in Cousins's offense was 23.3% under Malone and 25.4% under Karl.

So on the surface both of the statements he made (1. Cousins was more efficient under Malone, and 2. Cousins is taking more Jumpers under Karl) are correct.
But the change in Cousins's efficiency was more due to the fact that he was much less efficient from within 10 ft under Karl (48.6%) than under Malone (56.6%).
So basically NewArena was right about both facts, just wrong about the relation between them.
 
Amit149 said:
He was actually right about Cousins being more affective under Malone, and about him taking more Jumpers under Karl.

In the 15 games he played last season under Malone- Cousins shot 51% from the field.
13.5% of his shots were Catch&Shoot and 9.8% were Pullups.

In the 19 games he played last season under Karl- Cousins shot 47.4% from the field (so yes to the less efficient- but there is a small-sample alert).
11.4% of his shots were Catch&Shoot and 14% were Pullups.

So you can see under Karl he took much more pullup shots, but slightly less catch&shoots.
Combined the part Jumpers took in Cousins's offense was 23.3% under Malone and 25.4% under Karl.

So on the surface both of the statements he made (1. Cousins was more efficient under Malone, and 2. Cousins is taking more Jumpers under Karl) are correct.
But the change in Cousins's efficiency was more due to the fact that he was much less efficient from within 10 ft under Karl (48.6%) than under Malone (56.6%).
So basically NewArena was right about both facts, just wrong about the relation between them.
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I think the way he was playing under Karl is better and more sustainable over an 82 game season. He was put in spots where he has more options. Shoot, drive, pass while still getting his post touches. Under Malone it was a lot more post action which looked great but he was taking a beating, he went to the line a ton and that wasnt even the half of it. If refs called it right he should have been at the line even more but like Shaq they have a big man bias.
 
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Amit149 said:
We do have 2 starting quality PG's... if the Rondo bet goes well, which we are all assuming it will but it's not a given...

Anyway I think that the 3rd PG has a big role... I agree that as long as everyone is healthy he will not be needed, but it's not like our PG's are injury free.
DC just recovered from an injury and played 45 games last year, and Rondo haven't played over 68 games since 09-10, this is the numbers of games he played since:
10-11: 68
11-12: 53
12-13: 38
13-14: 30
14-15: 68 (22 in Boston, 46 in Dallas)

So this 2 not missing any games is not a bet woth taking, everyone talked about going "all-in" this season for a playoff spot in the loaded west... Curry and Dukan aren't players that goes with this mindset.
And sure this players souldn't matter day-to-day, but when they do you better hope you made the right decision and they can contribute.
Click to expand...

If the Kings are expecting significant contributions from Curry and Dukan, I would agree that they are not trying to go "all-in," but I don't think they are. Dukan's contract is partially guaranteed I believe so there is a chance he might not make the final roster. The team that you go into the season with doesn't have to be the same team you end with. The Cavaliers made a bunch of deadline moves and made it to Game 6 of the Finals.
 
If we play a two PG lineup anywhere near the extent some think we will, our 3rd PG means a fair amount more than the conversation here implies.

For awhile now I've heard people prognosticate about Karl playing, even starting Rondo/DC together(Napear thinks they will be our starting guards) so this idea Seth would barely get any time doesn't align with that stance.

If Ben/Marco take up the SG mins, then we'd have a more normal rotation and Rondo/DC would take up the mins at PG. But some of the same posters who think we're going to play a heavy two PG lineup are the same ones who are suggesting our 3rd PG doesn't matter.....which makes no sense. Just how exactly do you come to the idea you can play a two PG lineup and our 3rd PG won't matter?
 
ninjabiscuit said:
Twitter: [Marinovic] Teletovic about @suns: Brooklyn wanted me to stay, Kings offered me 2-year deal, but I choose Phoenix because they suit my game best.

I'm glad to see that we went after him, as many of you advocated...the timing of it from our outside perspective was that we never had a shot, but apparently we did. Irritating that yet another player chose another team over the Kings, but whatever. I'm pretty happy with the team overall.
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Vlade may have failed to get some of his targets but at least in each case he went after the RIGHT guys. As Divac revealed we did go after Wes Matthews (great fit) but did not go after Monta Ellis (very questionable fit) or Tobias Harris (terrible fit). Teletovic was a guy I really wanted the Kings to sign in that stretch 4 role. But unlike Vivek's first summer where the Kings went full bore after Iguodala (which I wasn't fully on board with anyway) and then seemed to panic and signed Landry, Vlade just moved to the next option on his list. He had a vision for the team and looked to slot guys that would fit with that vision. Didn't get Matthews? Sign Bellinelli for less. Didn't get Teletovic? Take a no risk flyer on a kid from the SL team who might possibly fill a similar role in time.

What impressed me most about what Vlade did this summer wasn't that he hit succeeded every time but that he showed the patience to stick with his plan and move from his first option to his second, his third and even a fourth or fifth.
 
bajaden said:
I've been following this conversation with amusement up to now, because frankly, I don't give a tinkers damm about our third PG, and to be honest here, Curry isn't a PG. He's a SG in a PG's body. Anyone that's followed his career would agree with me.
Click to expand...

Well that's your prerogative, but just because you don't give a damn, it doesn't mean it's not important.

bajaden said:
But your last post is a bit of a stretch. I mean, I see your point, but some of those players aren't PG's. While I appreciate your passion for this subject, I fail to understand it. If for some reason it becomes important down the road, I give you permission to bring it to my attention.
Click to expand...

Saying it's a stretch doesn't make it so. Provide some support, and then we can have a civilized discussion.
 
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dude12 said:
Spurs sign Jimmer Fredette....I guess they are not all in on this year. ;)
Click to expand...

Not a bad signing when you have at least 3 established ball handlers in front of him. Would definitely be troublesome if they expected him to be the 3rd PG.

Hopefully Jimmer can play his way into the rotation. Wish him the best.
 
twslam07 said:
Well that's your prerogative, but just because you don't give a damn, it doesn't mean it's not important.



Saying it's a stretch doesn't make it so. Provide some support, and then we can have a civilized discussion.
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At what point wern't we having a civilized discussion? As I said, some of the players you listed wern't PG's, therefore it was a bit of a stretch. And no, I don't think the third point guard is going to be that important. He could be, but I'm just going with my gut here. My guess is, that Curry would have to impress the powers that be to make himself relevant, and a part of the rotation. The bottom line with me is, it's not worth arguing over. So therefore I'm done.
 
bajaden said:
At what point wern't we having a civilized discussion? As I said, some of the players you listed wern't PG's, therefore it was a bit of a stretch. And no, I don't think the third point guard is going to be that important. He could be, but I'm just going with my gut here. My guess is, that Curry would have to impress the powers that be to make himself relevant, and a part of the rotation. The bottom line with me is, it's not worth arguing over. So therefore I'm done.
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I wouldn't focus so much on the part of us not being civilized (because we are) as much as the part of you not bringing much (if anything) to the table to discuss.

PG is just a position. It's how they play their position that matters in this argument.
 
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twslam07 said:
I wouldn't focus so much on the part of us not being civilized (because we are) as much as the part of you not bringing much (if anything) to the table to discuss.

PG is just a position. It's how they play their position that matters in this argument.
Click to expand...

The reason I didn't bring much to the table to discuss, is because I really don't care to discuss it. But just so you know, Curry wasn't the player from summer league I was hoping the Kings would sign. The guy I wanted was Scottie Wilbekin, who unfortunately was immediately snatched up by another team. He's more of a natural PG than Curry, and is a very good shooter. However, he would have generated just as much discussion if not more than Curry since he's less known. I only go on what I see when players are playing. I also realize that summer league is not the NBA. So now if you'll excuse me, it's time for my nap. Doctors orders!
 
twslam07 said:
It is bad GMing if your goal is playoffs. I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise. Does that take away from all of the other great moves Vlade has made? No, it doesn't, but when you look at this situation in a vacuum, we should have an established 3rd PG.
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Vlade is allowed to continue to make moves until February right? I don't think the roster from top to bottom has to be perfectly set when the season starts. It's easy for us fans to look at everything in a vacuum, but in reality these moves and player acquisitions aren't.
 
bajaden said:
The reason I didn't bring much to the table to discuss, is because I really don't care to discuss it. But just so you know, Curry wasn't the player from summer league I was hoping the Kings would sign. The guy I wanted was Scottie Wilbekin, who unfortunately was immediately snatched up by another team. He's more of a natural PG than Curry, and is a very good shooter. However, he would have generated just as much discussion if not more than Curry since he's less known. I only go on what I see when players are playing. I also realize that summer league is not the NBA. So now if you'll excuse me, it's time for my nap. Doctors orders!
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That's my point. Why comment in the first place if you're not adding to the discussion? Anyways, enjoy your nap!
 
peacelate said:
Vlade is allowed to continue to make moves until February right? I don't think the roster from top to bottom has to be perfectly set when the season starts. It's easy for us fans to look at everything in a vacuum, but in reality these moves and player acquisitions aren't.
Click to expand...

I think you're misunderstanding. I said it was bad GMing not having a 3rd established player on your roster who can bring the ball up and run the offense. Another poster took it as, "Vlade has done a great job! He's not a bad GM." To which I replied, "You're right! Vlade has done a very good job when you take everything into account. However, this move (or lack of move) is bad GMing."

Again, it doesn't mean Vlade is a bad GM or is doing a poor job. It's quite the opposite. With that being said, we're allowed to analyze each of his moves individually, and that's exactly what I have done here.
 
twslam07 said:
I think you're misunderstanding. I said it was bad GMing not having a 3rd established player on your roster who can bring the ball up and run the offense. Another poster took it as, "Vlade has done a great job! He's not a bad GM." To which I replied, "You're right! Vlade has done a very good job when you take everything into account. However, this move (or lack of move) is bad GMing."

Again, it doesn't mean Vlade is a bad GM or is doing a poor job. It's quite the opposite. With that being said, we're allowed to analyze each of his moves individually, and that's exactly what I have done here.
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But you kinda have to take everything into account before saying a move is bad GMing, imo. Given what the roster looked like before Vlade started and the time frame he has had to work, I just don't see how you can call not having a good 3rd PG at this point in time, bad GMing. You don't take a 29 win team full of chaos and build it into a championship level squad in what 4 months time? It's not bad GMing if your 29 win squad is not as deep as the Warriors or Spurs after 4 months in charge. We could use the player you describe, but I'm not going to call it bad GMing at this point if we don't have that type of player yet.

Really this is just nitpicking anyways. It's funny and pretty awesome that we are now this concerned about a 3rd stringer. My how times have changed, GO KINGS!
 
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