You're still missing the point. You asked for players who we can sign. Players who we know can initiate an offense, and you're sitting there talking about their weaknesses. These are 3rd PGs we're talking about right now. They will all have weaknesses. The point is that we know what they can and can't do. With Curry, the jury is still out. Too much of a risk relying on a guy like that if Rondo or Collison gets injured.
Kings and free agency - part 4
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I still think you're getting off topic. In regards to Houston, I'm not saying you need to always have 3 healthy guys who can bring the ball up and initiate the offense. I'm saying you should. Beverley got hurt and they had Terry as a fill in. Then they were able to bring in Prignoni to give them more guard depth. I recognize the ability to bring in a guard midseason, but why take the risk when you can fix it now?
Curry's shooting is not my concern. It's his ability to bring the ball up and initiate the offense.
I wouldn't call this a very important position. What frustrates me about this whole thing is how simple it is to solve the issue. I'm not arguing that our season is wagering on this decision. It's not. However, it can play a role in us winning or losing a few more games if Rondo or Collison go down with an injury. Why not continue to make our team better while we still can? Why are people so against that idea?
Why can't we have both? Look, I'm not saying get rid of Curry. I've already been on record with saying that I like his potential and that he could be a useful player in the future, but why can't we have him and an established 3rd PG? What can't we have the best of both worlds? Bring another guard in and have Curry be the 4th guard. If Curry is good enough and shows that he is ready in practice, give him a shot if Rondo or Collison goes down. However, if he fails, you still have your trusty old 3rd PG as insurance. This isn't me being against the Curry signing. This is me being against not bringing in an established 3rd PG.
Curry's shooting is not my concern. It's his ability to bring the ball up and initiate the offense.
I wouldn't call this a very important position. What frustrates me about this whole thing is how simple it is to solve the issue. I'm not arguing that our season is wagering on this decision. It's not. However, it can play a role in us winning or losing a few more games if Rondo or Collison go down with an injury. Why not continue to make our team better while we still can? Why are people so against that idea?
Why can't we have both? Look, I'm not saying get rid of Curry. I've already been on record with saying that I like his potential and that he could be a useful player in the future, but why can't we have him and an established 3rd PG? What can't we have the best of both worlds? Bring another guard in and have Curry be the 4th guard. If Curry is good enough and shows that he is ready in practice, give him a shot if Rondo or Collison goes down. However, if he fails, you still have your trusty old 3rd PG as insurance. This isn't me being against the Curry signing. This is me being against not bringing in an established 3rd PG.
That's why I said "room exception" as well. That's $2.8 mil. That's a good chunk of change.
The key word here is "think." You and all of us don't know. You just have a belief. I'm saying let's bring in a 3rd PG for some insurance and let Curry earn his spot on this team. What's so bad about trying to improve our team, widening our safety net, and making our young guys earn a role on this team?
The key word here is "think." You and all of us don't know. You just have a belief. I'm saying let's bring in a 3rd PG for some insurance and let Curry earn his spot on this team. What's so bad about trying to improve our team, widening our safety net, and making our young guys earn a role on this team?
It's possible that we've already used the room exception. Hard to know since we don't have access to all the info at the moment. The rumor was that we were saving it until we went up to or over the cap, and then we were going to use it to sign Casspi, which made some sense. So far I haven't been able to find any info on it. Anyway, if we have used it, then were somewhat hamstrung as to what we can offer any freeagent (league minimum), PG or otherwise that would entice them. Right now, we have 14 guaranteed contracts with Moreland and Stockton on the outside looking in. Moreland's contract becomes guaranteed on august 1st, unless both parties agree to extend it into training camp.
Personally, I would like to retain Moreland. Stockton I don't care about. However, retaining Moreland would fill the roster to 15 players, the maximum we can have. I have searched all of the usual suspects for salary info, but can't find it. If you have some info on where we are in regards to the cap, and what's left to spend, if anything, I would appreciate your source.
Personally, I would like to retain Moreland. Stockton I don't care about. However, retaining Moreland would fill the roster to 15 players, the maximum we can have. I have searched all of the usual suspects for salary info, but can't find it. If you have some info on where we are in regards to the cap, and what's left to spend, if anything, I would appreciate your source.
Hypothetically, if one of Collison or Rondo get injured, you are going to have to upgrade the PG position anyways if your backup is Ish Smith or Jon Lucas. Ish Smith and Lucas aren't going to be the difference between the Kings making the playoffs. I was arguing about the specific players he mentioned because he said it's easy to find a 3rd PG, but those players aren't very good.
I would have loved to have a guy like Andre Miller back, but getting him at a reasonable price and in a role he wants to fill is not a easy as some are making it out to be.
I would have loved to have a guy like Andre Miller back, but getting him at a reasonable price and in a role he wants to fill is not a easy as some are making it out to be.
Well I feel confident that Miller could have been acquired for the room exception which is about 2.8 mil. That's assuming we still have the room exception, and assumes that Miller didn't change him mind about playing another year. I know what he said in the past, but sometimes players his age reconsider after taking a nice vacation, realize that they don't have the energy left to get back into the shape an NBA season requires. If he doesn't need the money, then why put himself through that, just to sit at the end of the bench and basically hope for an injury to either Collison or Rondo.
I'm not saying that's what he thinks. For be it for me to guess at the inter workings of Millers mind. But if I were in his shoes, that might be how I would feel. The other side of the coin is that we've already used the room exception, and all we could offer would be the league minimum. That would be even less of an enticement. I have to believe that Vlade at least explored the idea of bringing Miller back, considering that the media brought it up from time to time as an expected re-signing. At this point there's nothing to do but move on. By the way, Curry wasn't my first, second, or even third choice as our third PG. All I can do now is hope for the best, and that he lives up to whatever expectations the organization has for him.
I'm not saying that's what he thinks. For be it for me to guess at the inter workings of Millers mind. But if I were in his shoes, that might be how I would feel. The other side of the coin is that we've already used the room exception, and all we could offer would be the league minimum. That would be even less of an enticement. I have to believe that Vlade at least explored the idea of bringing Miller back, considering that the media brought it up from time to time as an expected re-signing. At this point there's nothing to do but move on. By the way, Curry wasn't my first, second, or even third choice as our third PG. All I can do now is hope for the best, and that he lives up to whatever expectations the organization has for him.
That 2.8 Mil exception is the last of the FA money. Is there a deadline on spending it? If not why not take a wait and see approach?
As far as Seth Curry needing to EARN something I don't get it. The young man spent two years in the D league playing well and just tore up the Summer League. He earned the deal he got IMO.
As far as Seth Curry needing to EARN something I don't get it. The young man spent two years in the D league playing well and just tore up the Summer League. He earned the deal he got IMO.
Certainly.
DeMarcus Cousins $15,851,950
Rudy Gay $12,403,101
Rajon Rondo $9,500,000
Kostas Koufos $7,700,000
Marco Belinelli $6,060,606
Darren Collison $5,013,559
Willie Cauley-Stein $3,398,280
Ben McLemore $3,156,600
Omri Casspi $2,836,186
Caron Butler $1,499,187
James Anderson $1,015,421
Quincy Acy $981,348
Seth Curry $947,276
David Stockton $845,059
Eric Moreland $845,059
Duje Dukan $525,093
Wayne Ellington (Stretch) $882,630
Total Payroll = $73,461,355
Salary Cap = $70,000,000
Cap Space = -$3,461,355
As stated earlier, Casspi's deal does not qualify as the Room Exception anymore because of the Mbah A Moute situation. Therefore, we still have that at our disposal. If you don't believe me, here's a direct quote from another source.
http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2015/...undrafted-forward-duje-dukan-after-successful
The problem is that we have 16 players under contract, so if we do sign a player to the Room Exception, we would have to waive at least two of our players to make room for him.
DeMarcus Cousins $15,851,950
Rudy Gay $12,403,101
Rajon Rondo $9,500,000
Kostas Koufos $7,700,000
Marco Belinelli $6,060,606
Darren Collison $5,013,559
Willie Cauley-Stein $3,398,280
Ben McLemore $3,156,600
Omri Casspi $2,836,186
Caron Butler $1,499,187
James Anderson $1,015,421
Quincy Acy $981,348
Seth Curry $947,276
David Stockton $845,059
Eric Moreland $845,059
Duje Dukan $525,093
Wayne Ellington (Stretch) $882,630
Total Payroll = $73,461,355
Salary Cap = $70,000,000
Cap Space = -$3,461,355
As stated earlier, Casspi's deal does not qualify as the Room Exception anymore because of the Mbah A Moute situation. Therefore, we still have that at our disposal. If you don't believe me, here's a direct quote from another source.
http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2015/...undrafted-forward-duje-dukan-after-successful
The problem is that we have 16 players under contract, so if we do sign a player to the Room Exception, we would have to waive at least two of our players to make room for him.
My inclination would be that we would have to spend the Room Exception at a certain point before the season starts, but I am not 100% sure. I'll let Capt comment on that matter.
As far as waiting goes, you limit your options by waiting. There are more options in FA than they are during the season. Might as well spend it now with more options.
In no way am I saying he has not earned his contract. I have already been on the record saying I have like the signing, and again, I think he has deserved the contract he was given. I'm talking about him earning a spot in the rotation. A team trying to make it to the playoffs should have certain roles filled with players they can rely on. We shouldn't be giving these roles to players who are risky as far as being an unknown commodity.
As far as waiting goes, you limit your options by waiting. There are more options in FA than they are during the season. Might as well spend it now with more options.
In no way am I saying he has not earned his contract. I have already been on the record saying I have like the signing, and again, I think he has deserved the contract he was given. I'm talking about him earning a spot in the rotation. A team trying to make it to the playoffs should have certain roles filled with players they can rely on. We shouldn't be giving these roles to players who are risky as far as being an unknown commodity.
First let me say, that I have no reason to doubt your info. Believe it or not, I agree with you most of the time. I just have a problem with how you say things at times. But that's a different discussion, which should be done in a PM. What I was interested in was your source for the info. Since all of mine produced nothing, at least up to now, yours could be very useful in the future. Nowhere was I able to come up with the individual breakdown of the salaries for every player up to present time.
Your right, we're over the cap, but were talking about the room exception, which only becomes available when a team either reaches the cap, or exceeds it. The room exception is worth approximately 2.8 million. To further clarify, even though we have a cap, were allowed to carry a maximum of 15 players. So even if a team is at the cap, or over the cap, but still has a roster spot, or spots open, they're allowed to sign a player to the league minimum in order to fill that roster spot, even though that takes them further over the cap.
Obviously, the quality of the player usually drops with the salary, so a lot teams use it on young players who have struggled so far, have shown potential for the future, but aren't expected to contribute much. If you think the 15th player you sign to the league minimum is going to have an impact on the coming season, then you have some serious things wrong with the team. Not to say that player couldn't, but that it shouldn't be expected.
Obviously, the quality of the player usually drops with the salary, so a lot teams use it on young players who have struggled so far, have shown potential for the future, but aren't expected to contribute much. If you think the 15th player you sign to the league minimum is going to have an impact on the coming season, then you have some serious things wrong with the team. Not to say that player couldn't, but that it shouldn't be expected.
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Actually, I think we could have swung it even without the stuff with Luc since I think he was going to be on a minimum contract.
Since you can be kind of flexible in the order that you send contracts in to the league office (they even cut the Pacers some slack this offseason when they screwed it up) we can take our pre-Casspi salary as all of the players who were previously signed (or waived) and the players we signed with cap space (those who do not fit the minimum-salary exception).
That comes up to: Cousins, Gay, Rondo, Koufos, Belinelli, Collison, WCS (at his 100% cap hold, not the 120% we eventually signed him for), McLemore, Stockton, Moreland, and Ellington's stretch.
That's 10 players that only come up to $65.1M. Add in Casspi at $2.83M (room-size but not room exception) and we're at 11 players and $67.9M, plenty of room for the final min-value roster charge to get us up to 12 players and still be under the $70M cap.
From that point we can sign Butler, Anderson, Acy, Curry, and Dukan all to their appropriate min contracts because min contracts (up to two years) are a cap exception. And we could certainly have put Luc in there as a min contract as well.
Anyway, no, we didn't need to use the room exception so presumably we did not, and we ought to still have it.
Since you can be kind of flexible in the order that you send contracts in to the league office (they even cut the Pacers some slack this offseason when they screwed it up) we can take our pre-Casspi salary as all of the players who were previously signed (or waived) and the players we signed with cap space (those who do not fit the minimum-salary exception).
That comes up to: Cousins, Gay, Rondo, Koufos, Belinelli, Collison, WCS (at his 100% cap hold, not the 120% we eventually signed him for), McLemore, Stockton, Moreland, and Ellington's stretch.
That's 10 players that only come up to $65.1M. Add in Casspi at $2.83M (room-size but not room exception) and we're at 11 players and $67.9M, plenty of room for the final min-value roster charge to get us up to 12 players and still be under the $70M cap.
From that point we can sign Butler, Anderson, Acy, Curry, and Dukan all to their appropriate min contracts because min contracts (up to two years) are a cap exception. And we could certainly have put Luc in there as a min contract as well.
Anyway, no, we didn't need to use the room exception so presumably we did not, and we ought to still have it.
Hey, takes a man to admit mistakes. That's why my wife calls me a little boy most of the time. Seriously, I've had my share of frustration, so I understand. I've tried to make myself calm down before responding. As a result I have lot of broken furniture in my office, and I've learned that beating your head against concrete blocks (what they build houses with in mexico) is a very bad idea. Dementia follows!
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I'm not trying to push your buttons or anything, but are these posted elsewhere on line? I only ask in the interest of accuracy since there have been many times before when figures were posted without sourcing (not by you) that turned out to be totally incorrect. Some websites are notorious for just making guesses about actual contract amounts. 
ESPN are wrong... he signed a minimum deal by all reports (including ESPN's).
Fron NBA.com:
"SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) — The Sacramento Kings have signed veteran forward Caron Butler.
The Kings announced Butler's signing Thursday. The deal is for two years and $3 million, with a player option in the second season."
Fron NBA.com:
"SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) — The Sacramento Kings have signed veteran forward Caron Butler.
The Kings announced Butler's signing Thursday. The deal is for two years and $3 million, with a player option in the second season."
