KF Kings Prediction Poll #1: How Will Tyreke Do This Season?

[uolj]

What coach can devise a successful system for a non-outside shooting two guard? If the guy can shoot, the system is going to look fine. If it can't, it won't, regardless if Popovitch or Sloan or Smart is devising the offense. To me, if you're looking for a litmus test for Smart, look on the defensive side of the ball. Smart can't help it if his two guard can't hit 20 footers, but he should be able to help it if guys don't talk on D and switch properly and get back on opposing teams' fast breaks.

Honestly I think the opposite. Smart can get better production out of Evans by placing him in a better position to use his talents even without a jump shot. Moving him around has clearly dampened his effectiveness, so it seems clear that where he plays and who he plays with can affect what the team gets from him.

But talking and switching on D won't help the defense much. Where Smart can help the defense is with his rotations. Put the guys into the game that play well defensively and matchup with or overmatch the opposition.

 

[Bricklayer]

What coach can devise a successful system for a non-outside shooting two guard? If the guy can shoot, the system is going to look fine. If it can't, it won't, regardless if Popovitch or Sloan or Smart is devising the offense. To me, if you're looking for a litmus test for Smart, look on the defensive side of the ball. Smart can't help it if his two guard can't hit 20 footers, but he should be able to help it if guys don't talk on D and switch properly and get back on opposing teams' fast breaks.

Ignoring the fact that the last two titles have been won by teams using outside shooting SGs, and that many of the elite teams have them (Thabo Sefalosha, Ronnie Brewer, Tony Allen oh my), I seem to recall a certain Sacramento team that did pretty well with a non-outside shooting SG as well. "Shooting guard" should really be replaced by "off guard" for accuracy.

 

[Kingster]

Ignoring the fact that the last two titles have been won by teams using outside shooting SGs, and that many of the elite teams have them (Thabo Sefalosha, Ronnie Brewer, Tony Allen oh my), I seem to recall a certain Sacramento team that did pretty well with a non-outside shooting SG as well. "Shooting guard" should really be replaced by "off guard" for accuracy.

And the coach didn't make them shoot better, did he? The coach definitely did not devise an offense that had those guys as centerpieces. You're arguing my point - focus on the defensive side of the ball for a guy like Tyreke so he can be a Sefalosha, Brewer, or Allen. He not in their time zone yet when it comes to defense. A coach is not going to make him into an All-Star non-shooting two guard. He has to improve his shooting on his own. So if he is status quo as far as shooting this year, focus on the defensive side of the ball so he can be a Sefalosha, Brewer, Allen type. If he isn't status quo and his shooting breaks out, then - voila - Smart's offensive system is going to look so much better with him in a key offensive role.

 

[Bricklayer]

And the coach didn't make them shoot better, did he? The coach definitely did not devise an offense that had those guys as centerpieces. You're arguing my point - focus on the defensive side of the ball for a guy like Tyreke so he can be a Sefalosha, Brewer, or Allen. He not in their time zone yet when it comes to defense. A coach is not going to make him into an All-Star non-shooting two guard. He has to improve his shooting on his own. So if he is status quo as far as shooting this year, focus on the defensive side of the ball so he can be a Sefalosha, Brewer, Allen type. If he isn't status quo and his shooting breaks out, then - voila - Smart's offensive system is going to look so much better with him in a key offensive role.

Indeed, one of the best to the basket players of his generation should probably concentrate on becoming Thabo Sefalosha.

 

[bajaden]

Honestly I think the opposite. Smart can get better production out of Evans by placing him in a better position to use his talents even without a jump shot. Moving him around has clearly dampened his effectiveness, so it seems clear that where he plays and who he plays with can affect what the team gets from him.

But talking and switching on D won't help the defense much. Where Smart can help the defense is with his rotations. Put the guys into the game that play well defensively and matchup with or overmatch the opposition.

If you haven't watched it yet, go watch the video I posted of Brett Brown on defense, in the NBA fourm. He's the defensive coach for the Spurs. He does an excellent job of breaking down team defense, which is the only kind of defense that wins games. You don't have to be an outstanding athlete, but you do have to be smart. In it he points out that the Spurs refuse to give up open corner three's because its the third highest percentage shot in the NBA after dunks and layups. Gee, I wonder how many people we left open in the corner last season?

 

[uolj]

If you haven't watched it yet, go watch the video I posted of Brett Brown on defense, in the NBA fourm. He's the defensive coach for the Spurs. He does an excellent job of breaking down team defense, which is the only kind of defense that wins games. You don't have to be an outstanding athlete, but you do have to be smart. In it he points out that the Spurs refuse to give up open corner three's because its the third highest percentage shot in the NBA after dunks and layups. Gee, I wonder how many people we left open in the corner last season?

Thanks! I saw that.

Doesn't really change my opinion, though. I agree that good team defense should be taught, but I don't think it has as much of an effect as putting the right people into the right position.

 

[Kingster]

Indeed, one of the best to the basket players of his generation should probably concentrate on becoming Thabo Sefalosha.

You're the one using the Sefalosha, Brewer and Allen examples. Make up your mind. Do you want an offense design that incorporates a very good defender, but not centerpiece offensive player, into the mix (e.g. Sefalosha, Brewer, or Allen)? Or do you want an offense designed around a non-outside shooting two guard who is a centerpiece? (Example?) Make up your mind. You came up with the examples. Not me. You can't play it both ways.

By the way, "one of the best basketball players of his generation"? That is waaaay out there, man. Tyreke has a long ways to go before he becomes an All Star, much less "one of the best basketball players of his generation."

 

[Capt. Factorial]

By the way, "one of the best basketball players of his generation"? That is waaaay out there, man. Tyreke has a long ways to go before he becomes an All Star, much less "one of the best basketball players of his generation."

He said "to the basket", not "basketball". Changes the meaning quite a bit.

 

[Bricklayer]

You're the one using the Sefalosha, Brewer and Allen examples. Make up your mind. Do you want an offense design that incorporates a very good defender, but not centerpiece offensive player, into the mix (e.g. Sefalosha, Brewer, or Allen)? Or do you want an offense designed around a non-outside shooting two guard who is a centerpiece? (Example?) Make up your mind. You came up with the examples. Not me. You can't play it both ways.

By the way, "one of the best basketball players of his generation"? That is waaaay out there, man. Tyreke has a long ways to go before he becomes an All Star, much less "one of the best basketball players of his generation."

Strawmen at best.

1) you are the one inventing some false dichotomy whereby you either have to have a roleplayer at SG or a shooter at SG. I was merely demonstrating that a SG does NOT have to be able to shoot well to win big. Nor does a PG. Nor does anybody. Teams have won big with DWade, Rondo, LeBron, Thabo, Parker, Magic, Christie, Kidd, Bowen, Payton, and a whole host of others at those little man spots. The lists grow so long as to almost be a majority if you include all the guys who could just barely shoot but who were known for their to the basket work (Drexler etc.). SOMEBODY at those little man positions has to shoot, but the identity of that shooter has varied wildly from winning team to winning team.

2) as to that last line you need to reread my post

 

[bajaden]

Thanks! I saw that.

Doesn't really change my opinion, though. I agree that good team defense should be taught, but I don't think it has as much of an effect as putting the right people into the right position.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. There have been teams that didn't have the greatest athlete's in the world that played good defense. So who is the right person in the right place? Obviously you try and maximise your matchups if possible. But every player has to be in the right position to start, and then know where to go in each situation. In other words, your probably going to give up something regardles of how good you are. The question is what? If you play proper team defense you give up the most difficult shot, not the easiest. You can put 5 great athlete's out there and still have terrible defense if they don't know what the hell they're doing. JaValle McGee is a known shotblocker, but he's a terrible man to man defender who gets lost in switchs all the time.

My point is that you can have one, even two great individual defenders, and still have bad team defense if everyone isn't on the same page. Now, do I want a couple of good individual defenders? Damm right I do. The more help the better. But there's no excuse for not playing defense other than lack of information on how, or lack of effort. The Spurs continually put good defensive teams on the floor despite changes in personnel over the last 10 years. And despite some the regulars in that same time period getting a little long in the tooth. There's a reason for that.

 

[bajaden]

Strawmen at best.

1) you are the one inventing some false dichotomy whereby you either have to have a roleplayer at SG or a shooter at SG. I was merely demonstrating that a SG does NOT have to be able to shoot well to win big. Nor does a PG. Nor does anybody. Teams have won big with DWade, Rondo, LeBron, Thabo, Parker, Magic, Christie, Kidd, Bowen, Payton, and a whole host of others at those little man spots. The lists grow so long as to almost be a majority if you include all the guys who could just barely shoot but who were known for their to the basket work (Drexler etc.). SOMEBODY at those little man positions has to shoot, but the identity of that shooter has varied wildly from winning team to winning team.

2) as to that last line you need to reread my post

I don't think there's any doubt that Tyreke, with or without a jumpshot is a very good player. He's capable of doing things that very few in the league can do. And, I think its natural for his fans to want him to take his game to another level, and be somewhat disappointed if he doesn't. The larger question is, if he doesn't develop a jumpshot, is he the best fit on this team, not only for the team, but for him as well. I've felt from the beginning, that Tyreke's best position is SG. Its obviously not the only position he can play, but I believe its the position that allows him to use all his talents without the responsibility of creating for others. He can still do that if he desires, but the initial burden isn't on him.

In all honesty, I can't answer the question of fit. This team has been so dysfunctional over the last 5 years with constant coaching changes, and with little delegation of roles, thats its difficult to make any kind of judgement. Fortunately, or unfortunately, this is the year of decision. My hope is that Tyreke blends effortlessly into the SG position. As I've said before, he doesn't need a three point shot. All he needs is a pullup jumpshot option off of his drives. If he can do that, he can be an almost unstoppable force. At that point, it just comes down to decision making. Throw in some backdoor cuts off of that pullup, and he can easily average 5 to 6 assists a game.

 

[Chupacabra]

A few of the thoughts i have on Tyreke is that trading him would be a mistake. Aside from being a significant contributor in multiple statistical categories he has gained the reputation of being one of the best if not the best ball handler in the league. I have a hard time trading anyone who is the best or near the best at any 1 skill. Tyreke's offensive style of play often puts the opposing defense in a compromised position as well. He literally forces a whole side of the floor to collapse into the lane in order to keep him from getting a layup. Lastly, there has been more than 1 occasion on this board in which ive read posts that talked about James Harden being a better player and being more deserving of a max contract. This is all opinion of course but I think this can be decided by just watching both of them play. Im significantly more impressed with what Tyreke can do than what Harden can do. Im disappointed that he hasnt grown into a full blown superstar just like everyone else, but we need to be more realistic at this point. Tyreke can make any defender in the league look absolutely silly. While i believe that more than a handful of defenders can put the clamps on Harden.

 

[Kingster]

He said "to the basket", not "basketball". Changes the meaning quite a bit.

Agreed. It still doesn't change anything though. One of the best to the basket in a generation (who can't shoot outside) for a guard is like saying one of the best three point shooting centers in a generation (who can't shoot inside) as a center. Saying it's the coache's fault for not devising an an offense with them as a centerpiece makes no sense. Tyreke's performance as a 2 guard is on him this year

 

[Dime Dropper]

Agreed. It still doesn't change anything though. One of the best to the basket in a generation (who can't shoot outside) for a guard is like saying one of the best three point shooting centers in a generation (who can't shoot inside) as a center. Saying it's the coache's fault for not devising an an offense with them as a centerpiece makes no sense. Tyreke's performance as a 2 guard is on him this year

Wow, you literally couldn't be more wrong if you actually tried. Getting to the basket is a skill that every elite SG in the league has/had. Your analogy is just completely wrong. You're acting as if getting to the basket is as irrelevant for a SG as shooting threes is for a C. Maybe take a step back and have a look at what you're saying. Your judgement of Tyreke has always been quite weird.

 

[Hadlowe]

A few of the thoughts i have on Tyreke is that trading him would be a mistake. Aside from being a significant contributor in multiple statistical categories he has gained the reputation of being one of the best if not the best ball handler in the league. I have a hard time trading anyone who is the best or near the best at any 1 skill. Tyreke's offensive style of play often puts the opposing defense in a compromised position as well. He literally forces a whole side of the floor to collapse into the lane in order to keep him from getting a layup. Lastly, there has been more than 1 occasion on this board in which ive read posts that talked about James Harden being a better player and being more deserving of a max contract. This is all opinion of course but I think this can be decided by just watching both of them play. Im significantly more impressed with what Tyreke can do than what Harden can do. Im disappointed that he hasnt grown into a full blown superstar just like everyone else, but we need to be more realistic at this point. Tyreke can make any defender in the league look absolutely silly. While i believe that more than a handful of defenders can put the clamps on Harden.

Tyreke is inarguably better at getting to the rim than Harden. He has the capacity to be a better defender than Harden, but has frequent lapses (young players being young.) He is a MUCH worse shooter than Harden. That will probably not improve significantly, although he may make it to .330 three point threat in a few years.

The main problem for Tyreke is that his game is not naturally complementary to Cousins'. Drive and dish to a midrange shot for Cousins isn't a bad fit, but it only makes use of one facet of Cousins' game.

Pick and roll/pick and pop, plays that should be a bread and butter with Cousins, don't work because Tyreke's man can always always always go under the pick and Cousins' guy can safely jam to prevent Cousins from slip-screening to the hole. Can't run inside/outside with Cousins doing work in the post, again, because of Tyreke's poor outside shot.

From a pure logistics standpoint, and with the idea that you're building around Cousins, I would prefer Harden to Tyreke because Harden's versatility would stretch the defense around Cousins, who is the future of the franchise. You can build around Cousins and Tyreke if you are willing to overspend for the right roleplayers, but . . . Maloofs. Even paying Harden $12-14 million would be cheaper and easier to build than $10 million on Tyreke and $8 million on three complementary roleplayers.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Agreed. It still doesn't change anything though.

Disagree completely. I don't know how you have a leg to stand on here.

Brick stated that Tyreke is one of the best to-the-basket players of his generation, which he is. You essentially claimed that Brick was wrong because Tyreke is not one of the best players overall of his generation, which is a different qualification, and is not a claim that Brick made.

One could follow this formula to a logical extreme if the above is not clear:
Brick: "Mark Price was one of the best free throw shooters of his generation."
You: "Ha ha, Mark Price was nowhere near one of the best basketball players of his generation!"
Brick: "I never said that he was."

There's more to basketball than free throw shooting, and there's more to basketball than getting to the basket. Tyreke's jumpshot is not good, his decision-making and defense could be improved, and the offense has a tendency to lose focus when he is the lead guard. He needs to improve on all of these things before he can be among the best basketball players of his generation, but that does not take away from his to-the-basket skills.

 

[mac]

Wow, you literally couldn't be more wrong if you actually tried. Getting to the basket is a skill that every elite SG in the league has/had. Your analogy is just completely wrong. You're acting as if getting to the basket is as irrelevant for a SG as shooting threes is for a C. Maybe take a step back and have a look at what you're saying. Your judgement of Tyreke has always been quite weird.

Well put. Can't think of any elite SG who wasn't good at getting to the basket. Can think of many, many elite big men who couldn't shoot 3s.

 

[William Blake]

The main problem for Tyreke is that his game is not naturally complementary to Cousins'. Drive and dish to a midrange shot for Cousins isn't a bad fit, but it only makes use of one facet of Cousins' game.

It's not like Cousins and Reke have to play off of each other every single possession. Wade and Shaq won some games together didn't they?

 

[bajaden]

It's not like Cousins and Reke have to play off of each other every single possession. Wade and Shaq won some games together didn't they?

I think Hadlowe's point was about who is the best fit overall, not that you couldn't make it work with Tyreke and Cuz. He made valid points about the pick and roll. If everyone is willing to step back and look at things objectively, instead of who your favorite player is, and how You can justify not trading him, maybe you'll see things a little differently. And by saying you, I'm not meaning you in particular.

I don't have a dog in this hunt. I just want the team to win, and although I do have players I like better than others, I refuse to get attached at the hip to any of them. Tyreke has flaws in his game. No revelation there! I'm sure he's well aware of those flaws. But until he fixes those flaws, he'll never move to the next level, and its the next level that demands a max salary. Now I feel confident that he's going to come back this year a changed player, and if he does, then all of this conversation is moot. But if he doesn't, then like it or not, he's probably going to be traded because someone will offer him a huge salary that the Kings will be unwilling to match. At which point, they'll get nothing for him. Now I hope that doesn't happen. But that is the reality of the situation.

 

[Bricklayer]

Well put. Can't think of any elite SG who wasn't good at getting to the basket. Can think of many, many elite big men who couldn't shoot 3s.

Odd how the champs seem to prioritize it:

http://basketball.realgm.com/wireta...Dribble_Penetration_As_Top_Offensive_Priority


I'm sure our plan is much better though.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

Tyreke is one of the best to-the-basket players of his generation, which he is.

he really is. he finishes near the top of the league every year in baskets in the paint. and that includes power forwards and Centers that live in the paint. i believe he finishes #1 or#2 in the league at least once