Keon Ellis

[SacTownKid]

Yeah, this is pretty much my point. We DO have talent on this roster, but it's in the worst possible spot to be; not good enough to be a contender and not bad enough to be truly bad. If you simulated our upcoming season 1000 times, a majority of them are between 35 and 43 wins.

With or without Kuminga? This is why if the Kings are actually trying to win they need to see what this roster can do first. Putting any of their chips in now is assuming need and impact or just trying to get value because it's out there. You never know, the Kings might have a great camp. LaVine stars up, they get chemistry and they storm the league early on. What if they don't have shots to go around? Kuminga isn't really bringing anything if he's not producing points. Perry is beyond putting the cart before the horse if he's focusing this heavy on positional need. Postional need isn't the difference between beating any of these now fully loaded up teams in the West. Maybe if it's all world defensively but none of these moves remotely project that.

 

[The_Jamal]

With or without Kuminga? This is why if the Kings are actually trying to win they need to see what this roster can do first. Putting any of their chips in now is assuming need and impact or just trying to get value because it's out there. You never know, the Kings might have a great camp. LaVine stars up, they get chemistry and they storm the league early on. What if they don't have shots to go around? Kuminga isn't really bringing anything if he's not producing points. Perry is beyond putting the cart before the horse if he's focusing this heavy on positional need. Postional need isn't the difference between beating any of these now fully loaded up teams in the West. Maybe if it's all world defensively but none of these moves remotely project that.

I don't really care if Kuminga is an instant impact or not. Obviously would prefer it, but the thesis behind acquiring him is not to enhance the current version of the Kings. It's to swing on if he's a potential cornerstone player or not. And that's young enough where he can be apart of the next good Kings team if we firesale the vets.

 

[SacTownKid]

I don't really care if Kuminga is an instant impact or not. Obviously would prefer it, but the thesis behind acquiring him is not to enhance the current version of the Kings. It's to swing on if he's a potential cornerstone player or not. And that's young enough where he can be apart of the next good Kings team if we firesale the vets.

Then he needs to bite the bullet and take the swing. If he was trying to get Kuminga for free, he tried, time to bury this.

 

[Joshyjosh31]

I'll charity bet this. Kings finish somewhere 7-11 in the West. 12-15 you win. 7-11 I win. Above 7th is a push.

Sactowndog keeps dodging me, so we need to get some new action going. 3-0 on the forum is waiting for me

I’ll pass I’ll bet we don’t finish 7-9 though

We’ll finish 10 get smacked by 30 miss out on a good pick and run it back the following season

 

[The_Jamal]

I’ll pass I’ll bet we don’t finish 7-9 though

We’ll finish 10 get smacked by 30 miss out on a good pick and run it back the following season

Lol, what happened to "7-11 range is viewing this team the Kings-colored glasses"

Instantly fold on your take?

 

[TheMobb]

I’ll pass I’ll bet we don’t finish 7-9 though

We’ll finish 10 get smacked by 30 miss out on a good pick and run it back the following season

what happened? If Sabonis, LaVine and DeRozan are so terrible this should be easy money right?

 

[sono]

Vivek's insistance on trying to be "competitive" is the biggest impediment.

Sabonis
Murray
DeRozan
Lavine
Schroder

With Monk as the 6th man

Is likely a team that likely finishes somewhere between the 8-11 slot in the West.

On the other hand a starting lineup of

Sabonis
Kuminga
Murray
Ellis
Schroder

with heavy minutes for Carter, Clifford, Raynaud, and Jones probably finishes 10-12 in the West. Ultimately it's the same result minus a play-in game, but a much brighter future moving forward.

But if LaVine or DeRozan are on the team they'll start and Monk will get heavy minutes.

It'll be worse. I was a big supporter of Deebo. Sure, he has upsides, but watching him last season, he's the momentum killer, forget about team basketball, with him in the starting lineup. They gotta move him at all costs.

 

[Warhawk]

Is what we’re doing better atleast there’s hope when your building with high picks we know we’re play-in at best with the roster we have. And it’s gonna be hell in here when Carter, nique, and Ellis are getting 15mpg so GSW can kick our ass in the play in

what was the better result this year trading for Lavine and watching Dallas beat us like a college team or not taking back Lavine get the 12th pick and a kings ransom from New Orleans at draft time

There's no hope when you're tanking for 4-5 years in a row and keep getting picks in the 8-12 range because lottery odds aren't what they used to be. Picks 5-20 are often very similar. So why try to be bad and get (effectively) the same chance of a good player as a pick 5 slots higher?

We aren't bad enough to "guarantee" a top 5 pick, and as long as Vivek is owner there's no way to get there. So, no. No hope there. Even if we luck out I still remember the Pervis Ellison and Marvin Bagley debacles. I never get too hyped over draft picks. Most are "busts" to "not great players" at this level.

 

[coolhandluke]

Lol, what happened to "7-11 range is viewing this team the Kings-colored glasses"

Instantly fold on your take?

To be fair, 7-11 is such a wide range. In terms of win total (from last season), this varies from 48-36 wins (a difference of 12 wins, which is 15% of the 82 games season).

Kings adding vets and not having a Top 6 finish even in the range of possibilities is a sad state of affairs.

 

[Joshyjosh31]

what happened? If Sabonis, LaVine and DeRozan are so terrible this should be easy money right?

Celebrating cause we made the 10th seed is insane work

Lol, what happened to "7-11 range is viewing this team the Kings-colored glasses"

Instantly fold on your take?

Injuries can happen and we end up 10 which is pathetic if they did away with the stupid play in nobody would offer a bet that we’d be the 8th seed

 

[TheMobb]

Celebrating cause we made the 10th seed is insane work



Injuries can happen and we end up 10 which is pathetic if they did away with the stupid play in nobody would offer a bet that we’d be the 8th seed

Where did I celebrate? I asked what happened because for months you have said there are 12-13 teams in the West that the Kings aren’t close to, again in this thread said the 11th seed wasn’t realistic, and every single post is full of negativity bashing the players, front office and organization I would’ve thought you would’ve took the bet with no issue.

 

[kingsfan101]

There's no hope when you're tanking for 4-5 years in a row and keep getting picks in the 8-12 range because lottery odds aren't what they used to be. Picks 5-20 are often very similar. So why try to be bad and get (effectively) the same chance of a good player as a pick 5 slots higher?

We aren't bad enough to "guarantee" a top 5 pick, and as long as Vivek is owner there's no way to get there. So, no. No hope there. Even if we luck out I still remember the Pervis Ellison and Marvin Bagley debacles. I never get too hyped over draft picks. Most are busts to not great players at this level.

Part of the aim of "tanking" is to develop young players. I don't believe in the idea of throwing a bunch of youngsters together, without on court leadership and a clear plan. Keegan has to step up and be a leader. He might not be very excited about playing on a rebuilding team after making the playoffs just once during his rookie contract. If Scott is able to sell him on a concrete plan, he might be game for it. Hopefully, we can find him some player coach kind of player; a respected vet around the league who can mentor the players without taking court time away from them. Someone like Kevin Ollie, or Haslem, or even Shump.

If we do tank (let's call it rebuild), the aim should be to get young players and multiple picks, swaps, etc. Idea should be to stack up on young talent, and then swap some of that to try to get to the next level; something the Rockets are doing.

Easier said than done. Other than Domas, we won't get a lot for most of our vets. Plus, matching salaries is always a *****. This is where a player-coach kind of player might be useful. Serves the twin purpose of matching salary, while guiding the kids without taking playing time away from them. Such players are probably tougher to find than actual stars, but they hold lot more value for us than for a contending team. So, if we target them, we might get lucky.

 

[Joshyjosh31]

Where did I celebrate? I asked what happened because for months you have said there are 12-13 teams in the West that the Kings aren’t close to, again in this thread said the 11th seed wasn’t realistic, and every single post is full of negativity bashing the players, front office and organization I would’ve thought you would’ve took the bet with no issue.

Na I always had us 10-13 so making it 7-11 is a losers bet for me I have 9 teams that are clearly ahead of us no questions

 

[MizzouKing]

Yes. I have consistently believed (and often argued here), that good organizations will develop players, while poor ones will waste them. We can see our own draft history vs the golden years and the proceeding ones. Will late picks, we picked up gems like Hedo, Gerald Wallace, Kevin Martin, etc. Since then, our only successes in a long time had been only DMC and IT.

These were the draft ranks for the starting 5 of the two finalists

Indiana
Siakam: 27
Nesmith: 14
Turner: 11
Nembhard: 31
Hali: 12

OKC
Chet: 2
Williams: 12
Hartenstein: 43
SGA: 11
Dort: Undrafted

So only one player drafted in top 10, 2 second rounders, and 1 undrafted player. The MVP was picked 11th, and had Indiana won, a 12th pick would have won MVP.

This is not to suggest that getting a high pick is bad. However, building a team is much more than draft. So, in general, I have never been a fan of the "process."

That said, our current situation is quite bad. We are playing vets who have no future with us and are unlikely to lead us to the playoffs. We have some young talent, but most of it plays the same position, and we can't find minutes for them due to the vets clogging both the cap space and playing time. A new GM, a relatively rookie coach, and an impatient owner.

There are no easy solutions. You just can't trade away salaries like DDR to open up playing time for young guys. You have to take something back. Unless some contender has an expiring contract lying around that they are willing to give up, you might be forced to take back more middling guys, which might be a worse situation.

Such moves will also likely alienate the remaining vets. It would be only reasonable for players like Domas or Monk to want a trade if the organization wants to rebuild. It would actually be good for both sides. So, this is one situation, where I have come around to accepting the "process" if our GM sells it.

Well said, and I do remember a line of conversation in the Golden Years among fans about having this amazing prospect in Gerald Wallace that we weren't developing because our team of high level contributors was so unbelievably deep. That convo never got sufficient air to breathe, for several reasons.

I also have reluctantly come around to the side of investing in the youth movement and letting our vets move on, except for Sabonis... He is our Vlade, the key to the Princeton-style offense so core to the Kings identity, and the gold standard of hardworking grit I want our young guys to embody.

 

[MizzouKing]

Hopefully, we can find him some player coach kind of player; a respected vet around the league who can mentor the players without taking court time away from them.

Given the market, Monk may be this person for us. Like Bobby Jackson and Doug Christie, he has a dawg inside him and we need it to have puppies within our organization.

 

[hrdboild]

Well said, and I do remember a line of conversation in the Golden Years among fans about having this amazing prospect in Gerald Wallace that we weren't developing because our team of high level contributors was so unbelievably deep. That convo never got sufficient air to breathe, for several reasons.

I also have reluctantly come around to the side of investing in the youth movement and letting our vets move on, except for Sabonis... He is our Vlade, the key to the Princeton-style offense so core to the Kings identity, and the gold standard of hardworking grit I want our young guys to embody.

I could see sticking with Sabonis if we somehow find a defensive frontcourt partner for him. But either very little or no effort has been made to accomplish that since he's been a Sacramento King. Instead we've had Harrison Barnes, Keegan Murray, DeMar DeRozan, and maybe now Jonathan Kuminga in that starting PF role. Which.. okay, maybe we can find enough offense during the regular season to carry us to another 48 win season that way but what happens when we get to the playoffs and we need 20ppg from Sabonis and we need him to be our defensive anchor? And not just 2 out of 5 games either but every single game?

It's not that I don't like the guy. I just can't envision a version of this team that is a threat to win a playoff series with him as our best player, as the focal point of our offense, and as the only guy taller than 6'9 in the starting lineup. That's an impossible task for anyone. And if we're not trying to put together a team that can win even one playoff series what are we doing here? We're just wasting player's careers and sowing the seeds for more eventual trade demands and coach/GM firings.

Clifford and Carter are 23, Murray is 24, Kuminga is 22, Ellis is 25. If that's the direction Scott Perry wants to go... he really needs to look into moving Sabonis too.

 

[kingsfan101]

I could see sticking with Sabonis if we somehow find a defensive frontcourt partner for him. But either very little or no effort has been made to accomplish that since he's been a Sacramento King. Instead we've had Harrison Barnes, Keegan Murray, DeMar DeRozan, and maybe now Jonathan Kuminga in that starting PF role. Which.. okay, maybe we can find enough offense during the regular season to carry us to another 48 win season that way but what happens when we get to the playoffs and we need 20ppg from Sabonis and we need him to be our defensive anchor? And not just 2 out of 5 games either but every single game?

It's not that I don't like the guy. I just can't envision a version of this team that is a threat to win a playoff series with him as our best player, as the focal point of our offense, and as the only guy taller than 6'9 in the starting lineup. That's an impossible task for anyone. And if we're not trying to put together a team that can win even one playoff series what are we doing here? We're just wasting player's careers and sowing the seeds for more eventual trade demands and coach/GM firings.

Clifford and Carter are 23, Murray is 24, Kuminga is 22, Ellis is 25. If that's the direction Scott Perry wants to go... he really needs to look into moving Sabonis too.

Agree. If we want to develop the youth, trading Domas is the correct thing to do; for him as much as for us.

We will need some vet leadership. While I agree with @MizzouKing that Monk can be that guy, given our glut of guards, the fact that Lavine is largely untradeable, and that Dennis is the sole real PG (which I think is needed), Monk and DDR are the more likely trade candidates.

 

[NewArena]

I don't really care if Kuminga is an instant impact or not. Obviously would prefer it, but the thesis behind acquiring him is not to enhance the current version of the Kings. It's to swing on if he's a potential cornerstone player or not. And that's young enough where he can be apart of the next good Kings team if we firesale the vets.

Great point right, i can’t lie. Both of you make great points

 

[MizzouKing]

Great point right, i can’t lie. Both of you make great points

I just hope they hurry up and do something, before the start of training camp. Coach needs some semblance of stability if we are to establish an identity, build a real team out of our parts, and grow in the right direction.

 

[Joshyjosh31]

I could see sticking with Sabonis if we somehow find a defensive frontcourt partner for him. But either very little or no effort has been made to accomplish that since he's been a Sacramento King. Instead we've had Harrison Barnes, Keegan Murray, DeMar DeRozan, and maybe now Jonathan Kuminga in that starting PF role. Which.. okay, maybe we can find enough offense during the regular season to carry us to another 48 win season that way but what happens when we get to the playoffs and we need 20ppg from Sabonis and we need him to be our defensive anchor? And not just 2 out of 5 games either but every single game?

It's not that I don't like the guy. I just can't envision a version of this team that is a threat to win a playoff series with him as our best player, as the focal point of our offense, and as the only guy taller than 6'9 in the starting lineup. That's an impossible task for anyone. And if we're not trying to put together a team that can win even one playoff series what are we doing here? We're just wasting player's careers and sowing the seeds for more eventual trade demands and coach/GM firings.

Clifford and Carter are 23, Murray is 24, Kuminga is 22, Ellis is 25. If that's the direction Scott Perry wants to go... he really needs to look into moving Sabonis too.

Would’ve been smart to trade him this offseason and build for this draft class but we’ll do it next offseason when he demands a trade furthe

 

[kingsboi]

I just hope they hurry up and do something, before the start of training camp. Coach needs some semblance of stability if we are to establish an identity, build a real team out of our parts, and grow in the right direction.

there will be no identity until Sabonis and the dynamic Chicago duo are off the roster

 

[kingdivac]

there will be no identity until Sabonis and the dynamic Chicago duo are off the roster

What are talking about, you don't like Bulls West? Common.....

 

[KingsFanSince85]

I just hope they hurry up and do something, before the start of training camp. Coach needs some semblance of stability if we are to establish an identity, build a real team out of our parts, and grow in the right direction.

Why? It seems to me that most fans here are down on this team and don’t believe they will be very good this season. So if that is the expectation, why the rush? A few weeks or even the first couple months of the season isn’t going to matter — unless you’re expecting a playoff push.

The season is more than long enough to build stability and an identity. Hell, they realistically got a jump start on all of that last season when DC was named interim HC then given the full time gig during the offseason. By the end of this current month, DC will be 8 months into his tenure as coach, including a full offseason of implementing his vision.

 

[upinsmoke]

Patiently waiting for us to mess this up.

 

[MizzouKing]

Why? It seems to me that most fans here are down on this team and don’t believe they will be very good this season. So if that is the expectation, why the rush? A few weeks or even the first couple months of the season isn’t going to matter — unless you’re expecting a playoff push.

The season is more than long enough to build stability and an identity. Hell, they realistically got a jump start on all of that last season when DC was named interim HC then given the full time gig during the offseason. By the end of this current month, DC will be 8 months into his tenure as coach, including a full offseason of implementing his vision.

well if a lot of fans think it, it must be true...

 

[KingsFanSince85]

well if a lot of fans think it, it must be true...

So enlighten me as to what the hell you’re saying here. Posting a meme telling me I’m wrong doesn’t make or prove me wrong.

How about explaining to me, like an adult, what I got wrong and why rather than go the childish meme route that explains and proves nothing.

So, with that all said, what is it that most fans think that isn’t true? That the team is expected by most fans here to not be good?

I mean, if it’s your take that you expect the team to actually be good then fair enough. That at least partially explains your original comments as to why you’re in such a rush for the KINGS to do something, anything.

I never claimed to be in the camp that the KINGS can’t or won’t be in contention for a postseason spot. But I didn’t exactly get that sense from you either. So if I’m wrong about that just say so. Otherwise I don’t even begin to understand your reasoning for wanting to rush things along just for the sake of doing it before camp starts.

While I want to see this franchise/team compete as well as they can every single season — I don’t believe rushing into some kind of trade just to get it done prior to camp to be a sound strategy. I’m in the camp of remaining patient to make, hopefully, the right move. The best move possible.

If holding out ends up netting the best trade possible — I’m all for it. If holding out means a trade doesn’t materialize because they are focused on ensuring that they don’t surrender too much value — I’m all for it.

As I said before, DC has been in the job for 8 months at the conclusion of this month. He’s had time to build stability and an identity with a full offseason to reinforce his ideology and system. And he’ll continue to build upon it all season long. Not making a move prior to training camp doesn’t in any way invalidate that.

So, again, I really don’t understand your thinking here. Maybe you could offer up a better explanation or debate than a meme to counter what I’ve already pointed out.

 

[MizzouKing]

So enlighten me as to what the hell you’re saying here. Posting a meme telling me I’m wrong doesn’t make or prove me wrong.

How about explaining to me, like an adult, what I got wrong and why rather than go the childish meme route that explains and proves nothing.

So, with that all said, what is it that most fans think that isn’t true? That the team is expected by most fans here to not be good?

I mean, if it’s your take that you expect the team to actually be good then fair enough. That at least partially explains your original comments as to why you’re in such a rush for the KINGS to do something, anything.

I never claimed to be in the camp that the KINGS can’t or won’t be in contention for a postseason spot. But I didn’t exactly get that sense from you either. So if I’m wrong about that just say so. Otherwise I don’t even begin to understand your reasoning for wanting to rush things along just for the sake of doing it before camp starts.

While I want to see this franchise/team compete as well as they can every single season — I don’t believe rushing into some kind of trade just to get it done prior to camp to be a sound strategy. I’m in the camp of remaining patient to make, hopefully, the right move. The best move possible.

If holding out ends up netting the best trade possible — I’m all for it. If holding out means a trade doesn’t materialize because they are focused on ensuring that they don’t surrender too much value — I’m all for it.

As I said before, DC has been in the job for 8 months at the conclusion of this month. He’s had time to build stability and an identity with a full offseason to reinforce his ideology and system. And he’ll continue to build upon it all season long. Not making a move prior to training camp doesn’t in any way invalidate that.

So, again, I really don’t understand your thinking here. Maybe you could offer up a better explanation or debate than a meme to counter what I’ve already pointed out.

Yeah, sorry man, everyone has a right to their viewpoints.

While I think this is a "mid" team (at best) as currently constructed, I believe in playing to meet your goals and not to the expectations of others (be they high or low). That's the competitive spirit, it's the heart of sports. Whatever a team's construction, you never stop striving to win.

As for training camp, it's not just the quantity of time but how you purposely use clusters of time that directs a team's psyche. The time set aside for training camp is important on several levels, and I hope there can be some stability by that time that helps Coach get maximum benefit from it. To every great task there is a season, and a window of opportunity that only stays open for so long.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong too.

 

[Warhawk]

Part of the aim of "tanking" is to develop young players. I don't believe in the idea of throwing a bunch of youngsters together, without on court leadership and a clear plan. Keegan has to step up and be a leader. He might not be very excited about playing on a rebuilding team after making the playoffs just once during his rookie contract. If Scott is able to sell him on a concrete plan, he might be game for it. Hopefully, we can find him some player coach kind of player; a respected vet around the league who can mentor the players without taking court time away from them. Someone like Kevin Ollie, or Haslem, or even Shump.

If we do tank (let's call it rebuild), the aim should be to get young players and multiple picks, swaps, etc. Idea should be to stack up on young talent, and then swap some of that to try to get to the next level; something the Rockets are doing.

Easier said than done. Other than Domas, we won't get a lot for most of our vets. Plus, matching salaries is always a *****. This is where a player-coach kind of player might be useful. Serves the twin purpose of matching salary, while guiding the kids without taking playing time away from them. Such players are probably tougher to find than actual stars, but they hold lot more value for us than for a contending team. So, if we target them, we might get lucky.

I disagree that "tanking" = developing younger players. Tanking is losing games to get a higher lottery pick - full stop. They are completely different goals and approaches to me. I think you can both be competitive and develop younger players.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

Yeah, sorry man, everyone has a right to their viewpoints.

While I think this is a "mid" team (at best) as currently constructed, I believe in playing to meet your goals and not to the expectations of others (be they high or low). That's the competitive spirit, it's the heart of sports. Whatever a team's construction, you never stop striving to win.

As for training camp, it's not just the quantity of time but how you purposely use clusters of time that directs a team's psyche. The time set aside for training camp is important on several levels, and I hope there can be some stability by that time that helps Coach get maximum benefit from it. To every great task there is a season, and a window of opportunity that only stays open for so long.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong too.

I don’t take issue with much you say here, except that I don’t see how remaining patient wrt potential trade scenarios hinders anything.

Rushing into things, however ….

 

[KingsFanSince85]

I disagree that "tanking" = developing younger players. Tanking is losing games to get a higher lottery pick - full stop. They are completely different goals and approaches to me. I think you can both be competitive and develop younger players.

There’s no thinking that needs to be involved. It’s absolutely true. And many, many examples over the decades can be cited in support.