Keon Ellis

I don’t take issue with much you say here, except that I don’t see how remaining patient wrt potential trade scenarios hinders anything.

Rushing into things, however ….
I think we would both agree that doing something (likely via trade) is far better than doing nothing to improve the team. My hope is just that it happens sooner rather than later, so that we can get the most out of our training camp.
 
I think we would both agree that doing something (likely via trade) is far better than doing nothing to improve the team. My hope is just that it happens sooner rather than later, so that we can get the most out of our training camp.
No we don’t all agree. Remember Vlade’s first trade to clear up cap space. Our first ended up being Jason Tatum but Vlade traded pick swaps. Making a bad trade is far worse than doing nothing.

I don’t think people fully appreciate how much Monte/Vivek ****ed up this team. Much of it due to the same short sighted thinking you see on this board. The phrase win the battle lose the war seems to describe the thinking there and here.

And though @Capt. Factorial accuses me of trying to make a Camel a Dog, notice who I have not criticized: Perry. So far he has not given into the short term thinking of the fans or the owner and done something reckless and stupid. Bravo!

There is no river to divert to clean up this mess. We are just going to have to be patient.
 
I disagree that "tanking" = developing younger players. Tanking is losing games to get a higher lottery pick - full stop. They are completely different goals and approaches to me. I think you can both be competitive and develop younger players.

Tanking ain’t loosing games it’s letting the young guys get the most reps which in turns is most likely a losing season. The coach’s and players aren’t going in trying to lose they’re just developing which takes time.

Yes you can be competitive and develop players but we don’t have a single young player capable of being a number one or two on a championship team
 
No we don’t all agree. Remember Vlade’s first trade to clear up cap space. Our first ended up being Jason Tatum but Vlade traded pick swaps. Making a bad trade is far worse than doing nothing.

I don’t think people fully appreciate how much Monte/Vivek ****ed up this team. Much of it due to the same short sighted thinking you see on this board. The phrase win the battle lose the war seems to describe the thinking there and here.

And though @Capt. Factorial accuses me of trying to make a Camel a Dog, notice who I have not criticized: Perry. So far he has not given into the short term thinking of the fans or the owner and done something reckless and stupid. Bravo!

There is no river to divert to clean up this mess. We are just going to have to be patient.

We got people on here supporting a “gap year” and supporting the singing of journeymen Schroeder hell I saw some justifying singing Russell ****ijg westbrook
 
We got people on here supporting a “gap year” and supporting the singing of journeymen Schroeder hell I saw some justifying singing Russell ****ijg westbrook
I ain't supporting no one, and especially not me, singing anything. Trust me, you do NOT want to hear me sing. You'd much rather be deaf at that point.

However, I do support signing free agents and big name/relatively well known players to come in here and help us to establish some sort of a forward looking and forward moving culture.
 
Tanking ain’t loosing games it’s letting the young guys get the most reps which in turns is most likely a losing season. The coach’s and players aren’t going in trying to lose they’re just developing which takes time.

Yes you can be competitive and develop players but we don’t have a single young player capable of being a number one or two on a championship team
Today, I learned that...
A team can tank and still win a lot of games.
I'm pissed off! I've been lied to my entire life when it comes to the meaning of tanking in sports! These people (i.e. so-called "experts") don't know anything!!!

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We got people on here supporting a “gap year” and supporting the singing of journeymen Schroeder hell I saw some justifying singing Russell ****ijg westbrook

I don’t think anyone’s first choice is a “gap year” but what’s the alternative all things considered? I think most fans would be ok with bottoming out, getting high draft picks, developing young guys but that’s highly unlikely ownership would sign off on that.
 
There’s no thinking that needs to be involved. It’s absolutely true. And many, many examples over the decades can be cited in support.
I am curious to hear of such examples. In my experience, most teams that tend to be competitive are unable to develop young players. In our own case, we lost the best years of both Hedo and Wallace to other teams as we prioritized Jim Jackson and Anthony Peeler over them; Ws gave the short stick to Kuminga with the arrival of Butler, which not only might force them to lose him, but is also preventing them from making any other moves.

There might be some contrary cases, but they are outliers. E.g., Spurs developing Parker while still being competitive. They had two HOF players though and a HOF coach leading the team; had another young guard in Manu who had extensive experience in Europe and the Argentine national team. Even then, had they been able to sign Kidd, TP might not have developed into the Finals MVP that he did. He just happened to be their best option after Avery left, and they had the team and the structure to let him develop.

That said, some organizations are much better at it (no surprise). Miami for example, did well with low draft picks and managed to stay competitive even after the Big 3 era. Again, leadership mattered; both from Riley and Spo, as well as Butler and Haslem. No Parker level player there, but several successes, even as they remained competitive, albeit in East.
 
I don’t think anyone’s first choice is a “gap year” but what’s the alternative all things considered? I think most fans would be ok with bottoming out, getting high draft picks, developing young guys but that’s highly unlikely ownership would sign off on that.

Get winning player and improve the roster would be the other choice if the idiots wanna try for the 8th seed just to fail. Keeping Jonas would’ve been a start now we don’t have a viable backup big for Sabonis or Keegan and no a second round pick doesn’t count. We’re in Westbrook rumors when all we have is guards or small wings, if you’re targeting a vet why not Ben Simmons. He’d actually bring defense and better PG play then Westbrook with much needed size, I have no words for overpaying Schroeder
 
Get winning player and improve the roster would be the other choice if the idiots wanna try for the 8th seed just to fail. Keeping Jonas would’ve been a start now we don’t have a viable backup big for Sabonis or Keegan and no a second round pick doesn’t count. We’re in Westbrook rumors when all we have is guards or small wings, if you’re targeting a vet why not Ben Simmons. He’d actually bring defense and better PG play then Westbrook with much needed size, I have no words for overpaying Schroeder

This is all around the edges, end of rotation type guys that in the big picture won’t make a difference. We’re talking about guys like Jonas Valanciunas and Ben Simmons? Simmons hasn’t been healthy for years. He was not in the Clippers rotation last year and was barely on the court for Brooklyn before that. What are the chances of that changing? Jonas while a solid option offensively and on the boards was one of the worst defensive Cs in the league but for some reason this never gets talked about. He’s too slow and gets ran off the court or gets picked on in the pick and roll, so any positives he’s bringing offensively gets wiped away on the defensive end. Schroeder was signed to a 2 year MLE deal, not a huge commitment and he’s been a solid player his whole career so that’s probably about right for him.
 
Get winning player and improve the roster would be the other choice if the idiots wanna try for the 8th seed just to fail. Keeping Jonas would’ve been a start now we don’t have a viable backup big for Sabonis or Keegan and no a second round pick doesn’t count. We’re in Westbrook rumors when all we have is guards or small wings, if you’re targeting a vet why not Ben Simmons. He’d actually bring defense and better PG play then Westbrook with much needed size, I have no words for overpaying Schroeder
This is all around the edges, end of rotation type guys that in the big picture won’t make a difference. We’re talking about guys like Jonas Valanciunas and Ben Simmons? Simmons hasn’t been healthy for years. He was not in the Clippers rotation last year and was barely on the court for Brooklyn before that. What are the chances of that changing? Jonas while a solid option offensively and on the boards was one of the worst defensive Cs in the league but for some reason this never gets talked about. He’s too slow and gets ran off the court or gets picked on in the pick and roll, so any positives he’s bringing offensively gets wiped away on the defensive end. Schroeder was signed to a 2 year MLE deal, not a huge commitment and he’s been a solid player his whole career so that’s probably about right for him.
I truly do not get your fascination with players like Zion and Ben Simmons, and why they would be more fascinating to you than someone like Westbrook. As @TheMobb pointed out/asked, knowing both players' history, what exactly makes you think things will be any different, and better, in Sacramento?

Please enlighten me because, to be perfectly honest with you, I am so confused right now.
 
I am curious to hear of such examples. In my experience, most teams that tend to be competitive are unable to develop young players. In our own case, we lost the best years of both Hedo and Wallace to other teams as we prioritized Jim Jackson and Anthony Peeler over them; Ws gave the short stick to Kuminga with the arrival of Butler, which not only might force them to lose him, but is also preventing them from making any other moves.
We didn't lose Wallace because we didn't develop him. We lost Wallace because there was an expansion draft, and we were had to leave a contract exposed to the expansion draft. We did a poor job of planning for the expansion draft and all of our non-core contracts expired that offseason. Every contract we had was a core piece (except Wallace, who was not yet ready), and we were trying to win a title. We had Bibby, Christie, Peja, Webber, Vlade, BJax, Miller, and Wallace. That's it. The Hornets were certain to grab whichever one of them we left exposed.

What we *should* have done was to give Peeler a two-year deal the previous offseason instead of a one-year deal, and then exposed Peeler. It's not like we didn't know the expansion draft was coming. Oh well.
 
We didn't lose Wallace because we didn't develop him. We lost Wallace because there was an expansion draft, and we were had to leave a contract exposed to the expansion draft. We did a poor job of planning for the expansion draft and all of our non-core contracts expired that offseason. Every contract we had was a core piece (except Wallace, who was not yet ready), and we were trying to win a title. We had Bibby, Christie, Peja, Webber, Vlade, BJax, Miller, and Wallace. That's it. The Hornets were certain to grab whichever one of them we left exposed.

What we *should* have done was to give Peeler a two-year deal the previous offseason instead of a one-year deal, and then exposed Peeler. It's not like we didn't know the expansion draft was coming. Oh well.
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't there also a general consensus that, even if we had left Webber exposed in the draft as opposed to Wallace, Charlotte would probably not have grabbed him due to his history of injuries at that time?
 
This is all around the edges, end of rotation type guys that in the big picture won’t make a difference. We’re talking about guys like Jonas Valanciunas and Ben Simmons? Simmons hasn’t been healthy for years. He was not in the Clippers rotation last year and was barely on the court for Brooklyn before that. What are the chances of that changing? Jonas while a solid option offensively and on the boards was one of the worst defensive Cs in the league but for some reason this never gets talked about. He’s too slow and gets ran off the court or gets picked on in the pick and roll, so any positives he’s bringing offensively gets wiped away on the defensive end. Schroeder was signed to a 2 year MLE deal, not a huge commitment and he’s been a solid player his whole career so that’s probably about right for him.

Jonas and Simmons make a difference when you don’t have anyone at those position. We don’t have a back up center a problem we finally fixed and decided to make a weakness again. Simmons can defend big wings and play small ball center we don’t have a single body outside of Keegan to throw at big wings
 
No we don’t all agree. Remember Vlade’s first trade to clear up cap space. Our first ended up being Jason Tatum but Vlade traded pick swaps. Making a bad trade is far worse than doing nothing.

I don’t think people fully appreciate how much Monte/Vivek ****ed up this team. Much of it due to the same short sighted thinking you see on this board. The phrase win the battle lose the war seems to describe the thinking there and here.

And though @Capt. Factorial accuses me of trying to make a Camel a Dog, notice who I have not criticized: Perry. So far he has not given into the short term thinking of the fans or the owner and done something reckless and stupid. Bravo!

There is no river to divert to clean up this mess. We are just going to have to be patient.
That certainly was something, but obviously that kind of move didn't help the team.

You can have the last word.
 
Jonas and Simmons make a difference when you don’t have anyone at those position. We don’t have a back up center a problem we finally fixed and decided to make a weakness again. Simmons can defend big wings and play small ball center we don’t have a single body outside of Keegan to throw at big wings

Who is Ben Simmons defending on the bench? I agree with you that the team needs big wings/forwards but Ben Simmons is not the answer. If he was actually a viable option he would’ve been locked up by now.
 
Who is Ben Simmons defending on the bench? I agree with you that the team needs big wings/forwards but Ben Simmons is not the answer. If he was actually a viable option he would’ve been locked up by now.

Simmons can defend bench wings.. I’m saying it should be Simmions over Westbrook there’s zero need for Westbrook
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't there also a general consensus that, even if we had left Webber exposed in the draft as opposed to Wallace, Charlotte would probably not have grabbed him due to his history of injuries at that time?
There was discussion of that, but no consensus. It would have been extremely risky for us, and we don't know if Charlotte would have grabbed him as the only available star to build around. Very, very risky. "Hope Gerald Wallace, who will certainly get snatched up, doesn't break out" was probably the best move at the time. Didn't really work out.
 
We didn't lose Wallace because we didn't develop him. We lost Wallace because there was an expansion draft, and we were had to leave a contract exposed to the expansion draft. We did a poor job of planning for the expansion draft and all of our non-core contracts expired that offseason. Every contract we had was a core piece (except Wallace, who was not yet ready), and we were trying to win a title. We had Bibby, Christie, Peja, Webber, Vlade, BJax, Miller, and Wallace. That's it. The Hornets were certain to grab whichever one of them we left exposed.

What we *should* have done was to give Peeler a two-year deal the previous offseason instead of a one-year deal, and then exposed Peeler. It's not like we didn't know the expansion draft was coming. Oh well.
But that's exactly the point. Wallace wasn't a core piece, was not getting the floor time he deserved, and had little immediate future with us.

And while we will never know for sure, I firmly believe that the decision to expose him was not a lack of planning, but rather a deliberate decision. A kind of "Good Luck. Sorry, we couldn't use you more, but wish you the best with your new team" kind of arrangement.
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't there also a general consensus that, even if we had left Webber exposed in the draft as opposed to Wallace, Charlotte would probably not have grabbed him due to his history of injuries at that time?
Maybe, but (a) you don't take the risk when you are competing for a championship, and (b) you don't disrespect your senior player even if the plan is to keep him.

Obviously I would have loved if we had kept GW. He was one of my favorite players. I do believe however, that he would have languished on the sidelines with us for a few more years, and Geoff decided to do him a solid.
 
Get winning player and improve the roster would be the other choice if the idiots wanna try for the 8th seed just to fail. Keeping Jonas would’ve been a start now we don’t have a viable backup big for Sabonis or Keegan and no a second round pick doesn’t count. We’re in Westbrook rumors when all we have is guards or small wings, if you’re targeting a vet why not Ben Simmons. He’d actually bring defense and better PG play then Westbrook with much needed size, I have no words for overpaying Schroeder
Everyone is poo-pooing Eubanks but he's actually more of a like-for-like replacement for Domas (at a much lower level) than JV was. JV gave us a completely different look in a starting quality center coming off the bench but Eubanks was actually a good signing that won't get in the way of Maxime if he is ready for 6-8 mpg later in the season (probably not but it could happen).
 
We got people on here supporting a “gap year” and supporting the singing of journeymen Schroeder hell I saw some justifying singing Russell ****ijg westbrook

Dude, this was going to be a gap year AT BEST. You realize that right? There was no getting out from under this. The fact that they have yet to make it much, much worse like they usually do is a positive, lol. Teams apparently don't even want Monk or DeRozans contracts and that's probably the best of the bunch. If the Schroder deal was to make other players look better so they develop more trade value, well, we'll see. Honestly it's probably since they are stuck for a few seasons might as well perform. The team made major moves at the deadline and at least should see what a training camp looks like.
 
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