Keon Ellis

[pdxKingsFan]

There's a kind of Venn diagram of outrage going on here where people are upset about specific sets of circumstances and not all of them overlap. There are fans who want the team to tank for the lottery an those fans are happy when we lose. There are fans that want Doug Christie fired ASAP and they're not going to be happy until that happens. There are also subsets of fans that want all of the vets traded ASAP, fans that want to prioritize getting Ellis and Carter more playing time, fans that want Keegan taking more shots, fans that DON'T want the team to tank and want to watch competitive basketball, fans that just want clear communication on what the plan is, and so on. It's pretty much guaranteed that no matter what happens someone will be unhappy about it.

We can all see that this is bad basketball though so changes ARE coming sooner or later and the worse this gets, the quicker the changes will come so ultimately we just have to weather the storm. And to the extent that people are impatient or apprehensive about what is coming, it's not hard to see why. We've all got rebuilding fatigue at this point and there's no guarantee that the next set of changes will be good changes either. Many have tried and failed to get this team onto a winning path.

I can't celebrate losses so I have just tuned out. I think that goes to @KainLear's take on business decisions because how many people that pay more than a league pass sub (which I will be cancelling at the end of the month for now) have made that decision as well.

For now Vivek and any future owner has me by the balls though as I remain faithful to my one and only home town major league sports team.

 

[The_Jamal]

And yet, hiring people on this forum would probably have yielded more success if even just by chance over every single thing this organization has done. haha. There is one trick to basketball, history > data. Look at history and copy off the homework of the ones that got good grades.

I'm not sure I would have found a franchise player (although I did say I'd draft Ayton or Luka, depending on who'd fall), but I sure as hell would have had all the grossly undervalued bigs on the Kings along with FVV before he blew up with TOR

Hartenstein
PJ Washington
Vanderbilt
Naz Reid
Boucher

 

[Padrino]

There's a kind of Venn diagram of outrage going on here where people are upset about specific sets of circumstances and not all of them overlap. There are fans who want the team to tank for the lottery an those fans are happy when we lose. There are fans that want Doug Christie fired ASAP and they're not going to be happy until that happens. There are also subsets of fans that want all of the vets traded ASAP, fans that want to prioritize getting Ellis and Carter more playing time, fans that want Keegan taking more shots, fans that DON'T want the team to tank and want to watch competitive basketball, fans that just want clear communication on what the plan is, and so on. It's pretty much guaranteed that no matter what happens someone will be unhappy about it.

We can all see that this is bad basketball though so changes ARE coming sooner or later and the worse this gets, the quicker the changes will come so ultimately we just have to weather the storm. And to the extent that people are impatient or apprehensive about what is coming, it's not hard to see why. We've all got rebuilding fatigue at this point and there's no guarantee that the next set of changes will be good changes either. Many have tried and failed to get this team onto a winning path.

I'm in a camp (of a handful of us at KF.com? Not really sure) that's thrilled with every loss, but would be happier still if the vets were not getting 35-40 minutes per game, even if it meant the occasional win that resulted from Doug Christie getting his younger players (and better defenders) on the court with regularity. So yes, I think it's perfectly possible to be both pleased that a rebuild seems to be coming down the pike, and displeased with the present moment's waste of developmental opportunities for most of the Kings' younger players. I will say that I'm glad Maxime is getting consistent run while Domas' is out with injury.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I'm in a camp (of a handful of us at KF.com? Not really sure) that's thrilled with every loss, but would be happier still if the vets were not getting 35-40 minutes per game, even if it meant the occasional win that resulted from Doug Christie getting his younger players (and better defenders) on the court with regularity. So yes, I think it's perfectly possible to be both pleased that a rebuild seems to be coming down the pike, and displeased with the present moment's waste of developmental opportunities for most of the Kings' younger players. I will say that I'm glad Maxime is getting consistent run while Domas' is out with injury.

I want the vets gone but am willing to wait until the trade deadline if it facilitates making that happen.

Put me in the camp that does think reducing minutes makes them harder to move, or could somehow harm our standing with the league office. I just hope we start seeing player movement next week.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Weird that the defense first coach who didn't put up big numbers but was always an excellent defender, doesn't believe in the player that doesn't put up big numbers but is the best defender on the team.

Doesn't add up, that he of all people wouldn't be interested in playing Ellis and developing Carter. Something else is going on with how this is being managed

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I hope we can salvage Carter but I think more is going on in that situation than Ellis. At least we picked up his option for next season. I'm afraid he's been written off around the league as I don't hear even a positive peep about him.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

I hope we can salvage Carter but I think more is going on in that situation than Ellis. At least we picked up his option for next season. I'm afraid he's been written off around the league as I don't hear even a positive peep about him.

I don't know what they were expecting out of him. He's barely got a chance to get in a rhythm since his injury last year

 

[Padrino]

I want the vets gone but am willing to wait until the trade deadline if it facilitates making that happen.

Put me in the camp that does think reducing minutes makes them harder to move, or could somehow harm our standing with the league office. I just hope we start seeing player movement next week.

Eh, anybody who might theoretically want DeRozan or Westbrook or Schroder knows what they're getting. Same for LaVine, for that matter, though I remain skeptical that he can be moved before the off-season. Regardless, there's nothing new to learn here. The old guys can still play. DeRozan still has it from midrange. Westbrook can still make plays and explode for 30. Schroder can... well, I guess he can still be a halfway competent backup?

I'd even argue that prospective trade partners probably would prefer a reduced workload for any of the Kings' aging vets before trading for them. You acquire guys like that to squeeze out the last of the juice they've got. There's no sense running them ragged for *checks the box score from the Indiana game* 36 minutes in 36 year old DeRozan's case and an absolutely gaudy 40 minutes in 37 year old Russell Westbrook's case. That's just... insanity. The league ain't penalizing the Kings for giving guys in their late 30s a reduced workload.

 

[hrdboild]

I'm in a camp (of a handful of us at KF.com? Not really sure) that's thrilled with every loss, but would be happier still if the vets were not getting 35-40 minutes per game, even if it meant the occasional win that resulted from Doug Christie getting his younger players (and better defenders) on the court with regularity. So yes, I think it's perfectly possible to be both pleased that a rebuild seems to be coming down the pike, and displeased with the present moment's waste of developmental opportunities for most of the Kings' younger players. I will say that I'm glad Maxime is getting consistent run while Domas' is out with injury.

I would love to see the Kings land a top 5 pick this year, obviously, given the prospects in this year's class but we've also been there done that when it comes to the draft and most of them didn't turn out the way I wanted them to. So I can't even really enjoy a full-on tank year at this point without subconsciously worrying that there will be another "Bagley over Luka" pick at the end of it. That one decision probably broke me permanently as a draft believer.

Mainly I do not want there to be any chance of this new front office rallying around a Frankenstein lineup headlined by defensively challenged vets with the young role-players only getting limited touches and 2-3 shots a game. The more disastrously we crash and burn while leaning on that type of a strategy the more likely it is we get a full rebuild which suits my interests. I would also be fine if we pivot to playing mostly young players and seeing what we have with a Keegan, Keon, Nique, Devin, and Maxime lineup playing starter's minutes. At that point, the draft is only a secondary concern which is probably not ideal for our long-term future (drafting a franchise player is the quickest way to get back on top) but is less anxiety inducing given this franchise's woeful draft history.

 

[The_Jamal]

Eh, anybody who might theoretically want DeRozan or Westbrook or Schroder knows what they're getting. Same for LaVine, for that matter, though I remain skeptical that he can be moved before the off-season. Regardless, there's nothing new to learn here. The old guys can still play. DeRozan still has it from midrange. Westbrook can still make plays and explode for 30. Schroder can... well, I guess he can still be a halfway competent backup?

I'd even argue that prospective trade partners probably would prefer a reduced workload for any of the Kings' aging vets before trading for them. You acquire guys like that to squeeze out the last of the juice they've got. There's no sense running them ragged for *checks the box score from the Indiana game* 36 minutes in 36 year old DeRozan's case and an absolutely gaudy 40 minutes in 37 year old Russell Westbrook's case. That's just... insanity. The league ain't penalizing the Kings for giving guys in their late 30s a reduced workload.

So for a 6-18 team, if we reduced LaVines minutes last night from 37, to 30, we would have been investigated? eh, seems dubious.

Maybe some are asking for a full benching, but that's not realistic. But it is realistic to chop these guys down to far more reasonable minutes levels (28-32) so we can get Nique/Maxime/Keon and eventually Carter on the floor. Right now, that's all I'm asking for; give me 20ish MPG for those guys every single game without fail. That still leaves plenty of room for the vets to play starter minutes, but it gives our young guys a real chance to find a rhythm and play a real minutes workload every game. Look at the benefit we've seen for Max; he's been above 20 the last 6 games and looks to be taking off with that opportunity.

 

[Padrino]

I would love to see the Kings land a top 5 pick this year, obviously, given the prospects in this year's class but we've also been there done that when it comes to the draft and most of them didn't turn out the way I wanted them to. So I can't even really enjoy a full-on tank year at this point without subconsciously worrying that there will be another "Bagley over Luka" pick at the end of it. That one decision probably broke me permanently as a draft believer.

Mainly I do not want there to be any chance of this new front office rallying around a Frankenstein lineup headlined by defensively challenged vets with the young role-players only getting limited touches and 2-3 shots a game. The more disastrously we crash and burn while leaning on that type of a strategy the more likely it is we get a full rebuild which suits my interests. I would also be fine if we pivot to playing mostly young players and seeing what we have with a Keegan, Keon, Nique, Devin, and Maxime lineup playing starter's minutes. At that point, the draft is only a secondary concern which is probably not ideal for our long-term future (drafting a franchise player is the quickest way to get back on top) but is less anxiety inducing given this franchise's woeful draft history.

I can certainly appreciate the draft-related apathy. This franchise has had a comically and almost impossibly awful draft record during its life in Sacramento. But they remain a small market franchise, and it is just so difficult for a small market franchise to build a winner without leveraging the draft. Marquee free agent signings are not the stuff of Sacramento legend. And in order to make effective use of the trade block, you need real assets that other teams will value, of which the Kings have but a paltry few, and none that come without a bunch of qualifiers. That leaves the draft. Whatever his failings thus far, it's undoubtedly why Scott Perry is talking about a 3-5 year turnaround. The Kings aren't sitting on a stockpile of picks that they can use to get multiple bites at the apple every off-season. They're going to have to move slowly and deliberately in the direction of youth. I just wish they'd give consideration to the youth that's already on the roster. That's the place to start. You figure out which of these younger guys might be worth holding onto as you march into the uncertain future.

 

[Padrino]

So for a 6-18 team, if we reduced LaVines minutes last night from 37, to 30, we would have been investigated? eh, seems dubious.

Maybe some are asking for a full benching, but that's not realistic. But it is realistic to chop these guys down to far more reasonable minutes levels (28-32) so we can get Nique/Maxime/Keon and eventually Carter on the floor. Right now, that's all I'm asking for; give me 20ish MPG for those guys every single game without fail. That still leaves plenty of room for the vets to play starter minutes, but it gives our young guys a real chance to find a rhythm and play a real minutes workload every game. Look at the benefit we've seen for Max; he's been above 20 the last 6 games and looks to be taking off with that opportunity.

Yeah, we're on the same page here. I have no expectation whatsoever that the Kings are going to reduce LaVine's or DeRozan's or Westbrook's or Schroder's minutes (when he returns) to zero. But they can shave time off the older guys' workload so that the younger guys can get consistent roles. The team will also be doing themselves a favor by not Tom Thibodeau'ing their way into injuries for their aging vets. I'm already of the mind that you dump some of these guys at the deadline regardless of the quality of the trade packages. Let's not make them completely untradable by putting unnecessary wear on their balding tire treads.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Eh, anybody who might theoretically want DeRozan or Westbrook or Schroder knows what they're getting. Same for LaVine, for that matter, though I remain skeptical that he can be moved before the off-season. Regardless, there's nothing new to learn here. The old guys can still play. DeRozan still has it from midrange. Westbrook can still make plays and explode for 30. Schroder can... well, I guess he can still be a halfway competent backup?

I'd even argue that prospective trade partners probably would prefer a reduced workload for any of the Kings' aging vets before trading for them. You acquire guys like that to squeeze out the last of the juice they've got. There's no sense running them ragged for *checks the box score from the Indiana game* 36 minutes in 36 year old DeRozan's case and an absolutely gaudy 40 minutes in 37 year old Russell Westbrook's case. That's just... insanity. The league ain't penalizing the Kings for giving guys in their late 30s a reduced workload.

It's the same bizarre rationale why once a player gets bought out and signs with a playoff team he is forever a vet min player. I don't really make the rules, Russ should have been signed to a competitive team for more than he makes with us a part of the MLE or whatever. Once you get a minutes or pay deduction you are forever damaged goods throughout the NBA.

 

[Jdbraver137]

I could see a Keon for cam Thomas trade

 

[SacTownKid]

I'm not sure I would have found a franchise player (although I did say I'd draft Ayton or Luka, depending on who'd fall), but I sure as hell would have had all the grossly undervalued bigs on the Kings along with FVV before he blew up with TOR

Hartenstein
PJ Washington
Vanderbilt
Naz Reid
Boucher

As long as in most drafts a GM doesn't go completely off script and pull a complete who is this guy, or a substantial reach the odds are the gazillion mocks out there that have literally already done 99% of the work will keep a GM from having too many busts if you just take the obvious pick. Not to toot the forums horn here but I would trust pretty much @bajaden write ups over most of the people Vivek has hired, haha.

 

[SacTownKid]

I hope we can salvage Carter but I think more is going on in that situation than Ellis. At least we picked up his option for next season. I'm afraid he's been written off around the league as I don't hear even a positive peep about him.

He hasn't even played, that's the Kings doing unless something else is happening and they no doubt have tanked budding careers more than a few times. It's just that much harder for players to catch on down the road. Look at how hard it was for Hassan to get back up. Rule #1 of draft trades. If you are dead set on trading a pick, trade it no later than that night. It's like driving a car off the lot, it's going to lose all value the very minute someone does. It's always been that way and then next issue is if they get a chance and shine the team won't want to trade them anyway even if they maybe should. Look at the Warriors with some of their higher draft picks during the Curry era. They should have immediately traded some of those picks because they clearly weren't willing to derail anything to develop some of those guys either. Wiseman especially.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

He hasn't even played, that's the Kings doing unless something else is happening and they no doubt have tanked budding careers more than a few times. It's just that much harder for players to catch on down the road. Look at how hard it was for Hassan to get back up. Rule #1 of draft trades. If you are dead set on trading a pick, trade it no later than that night. It's like driving a car off the lot, it's going to lose all value the very minute someone does. It's always been that way and then next issue is if they get a chance and shine the team won't want to trade them anyway even if they maybe should. Look at the Warriors with some of their higher draft picks during the Curry era. They should have immediately traded some of those picks because they clearly weren't willing to derail anything to develop some of those guys either. Wiseman especially.

I have no doubt Monte wanted him and I have little doubt Perry does not.

No idea where coaching is. A lot of people said we got a draft day steal but he really didn't fit our immediate needs and there were players right there that did. Whole situation sucks, but if he was Monte's pick with little buy in from anyone else it explains part of why Monte is gone.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

I have no doubt Monte wanted him and I have little doubt Perry does not.

No idea where coaching is. A lot of people said we got a draft day steal but he really didn't fit our immediate needs and there were players right there that did. Whole situation sucks, but if he was Monte's pick with little buy in from anyone else it explains part of why Monte is gone.

He wasn't considered a reach or a bad pick. Most of this forum was excited about him

 

[pdxKingsFan]

He wasn't considered a reach or a bad pick. Most of this forum was excited about him

I think some of that excitement faded when he got the surgery. I too was excited but other Kings spaces really turned against him. His pick was supposedly to be traded for reinforcements for Fox and then we got a guard so a lot of people viewed the pick as another slap in the face to Fox and acted accordingly.

Still this year should have been a fresh slate but Perry had him on the block before Summer League even started.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

I think some of that excitement faded when he got the surgery. I too was excited but other Kings spaces really turned against him. His pick was supposedly to be traded for reinforcements for Fox and then we got a guard so a lot of people viewed the pick as another slap in the face to Fox and acted accordingly.

Still this year should have been a fresh slate but Perry had him on the block before Summer League even started.

I'm not high on Perry, who seems to just want to get rid of every player that wasn't his acquisition, without even giving them a good look

 

[SacTownKid]

I have no doubt Monte wanted him and I have little doubt Perry does not.

No idea where coaching is. A lot of people said we got a draft day steal but he really didn't fit our immediate needs and there were players right there that did. Whole situation sucks, but if he was Monte's pick with little buy in from anyone else it explains part of why Monte is gone.

Then the question is who would you trust on their player evaluation skills? Monte, who took a pretty simple and smart take the dropper approach, or the guy involved with the Kings in the Bagley fiasco? I still have no idea why Perry wouldn't want him but whatever. If it's as simple as, "He's not my pick" think then we be in trouble. That's the dumbest most yappy little dog territorial kind of thing a GM can do and this is going probably be another quick GM turnaround with that approach. Guys like that make it tough, the high IQ GM's go with the flow until it stops flowing.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Then the question is who would you trust on their player evaluation skills? Monte, who took a pretty simple and smart take the dropper approach, or the guy involved with the Kings in the Bagley fiasco? I still have no idea why Perry wouldn't want him but whatever. If it's as simple as, "He's not my pick" think then we be in trouble. That's the dumbest most yappy little dog territorial kind of thing a GM can do and this is going probably be another quick GM turnaround with that approach. Guys like that make it tough, the high IQ GM's go with the flow until it stops flowing.

Sorry what? Perry was gone a year before Bagley.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I'm not high on Perry, who seems to just want to get rid of every player that wasn't his acquisition, without even giving them a good look

I'm not sure that's true at all. His priority is getting some of the big money off the books and setting up a rebuild for sure. There's 3 guys near the top of the salary structure that play essentially they same position, 2 of whom demand to start. I think he doesn't care which 2 he gets rid of, sure. I don't think he is sold one way or the other on Domas, he'll entertain offers especially in good faith to get the guy out of a rebuild that won't finish before his term is up.

I honestly think his role right now is minimizing excess casualties in the demolition phase so the rebuild can proceed with less obstructions.

 

[SacTownKid]

Sorry what? Perry was gone a year before Bagley.

There was talk he was somehow involved, don't know if it's true though. Should have put in the word supposedly because I never even really took any of it seriously. The knock he usually gets is taking Kevin Knox but I think that's stupid because he was probably just given up on a little too soon.

 

[gunks]

I'm not high on Perry, who seems to just want to get rid of every player that wasn't his acquisition, without even giving them a good look

I mean, he gave Keegan a fat extension.

The rest of the roster is a 30-35 win dumpster fire, so I can't really blame him for wanting to move on from everyone.

I'd love for us to try to hold on to Keon and Carter, but I feel like those are our only "sweeten the deal" trade chips on a roster full of janky, overpaid vets.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

I mean, he gave Keegan a fat extension.

The rest of the roster is a 30-35 win dumpster fire, so I can't really blame him for wanting to move on from everyone.

I'd love for us to try to hold on to Keon and Carter, but I feel like those are our only "sweeten the deal" trade chips on a roster full of janky, overpaid vets.

I wouldn't label the young roll players as "losers". They haven't got a full opportunity yet and play with bad fitting veterans.

It's the organization's fault for putting themselves into this position. Lavine, Derozan, and Sabonis is a really bad fit

 

[gunks]

I wouldn't label the young roll players as "losers". They haven't got a full opportunity yet and play with bad fitting veterans.

It's the organization's fault for putting themselves into this position. Lavine, Derozan, and Sabonis is a really bad fit

Yeah, those are the guys I was referring to when I said "janky vets" haha

I fully expect Keon and Carter to have a Davion-esque glow up if they're ever put in a position to succeed. Hopefully that's here in Sac.

 

[Tetsujin]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2001096659049337218

 

[The_Jamal]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2001096659049337218

Gigantic difference is Keon is a career 42% 3pt shooter on 582 attempts ( in 4 seasons)

Thybulle?

34.5% on 823 attempts (in 7 seasons)

Also, I absolutely refuse to nitpick Keon when we're 27th in DRtg and 30th in ORtg. Everyone playing ahead of him is a significantly worse defender and only LaVine is a better spacer. If we had other options to turn to (that we actually played), maybe you could dive deep into this sort of analysis.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Gigantic difference is Keon is a career 42% 3pt shooter on 582 attempts ( in 4 seasons)

Thybulle?

34.5% on 823 attempts (in 7 seasons)

Also, I absolutely refuse to nitpick Keon when we're 27th in DRtg and 30th in ORtg. Everyone playing ahead of him is a significantly worse defender and only LaVine is a better spacer. If we had other options to turn to (that we actually played), maybe you could dive deep into this sort of analysis.

and the fact that the team's best ratings, were the lineups with him on the floor. It wasn't a coincidence