Keep THIS starting lineup? (merged)

[BawLa]

In light of the recent injuries, we have seen more from supposedly a lesser starting crew. What do you all think of this lineup? Keep in mind it is working with what we have.


Starting: Bibby, Martin, Bonzi, KT, Miller

Bench: Price/Hart, Garcia, Peja/Corliss, SAR, Skinner


This would give us actually more options coming off the bench based on the particular matchup and believe it or not, more rebounding out of the starting crew. We lose some size at the SF, but Bonzi is twice as athletic as Peja so i'm sure he could do a good enough job. KT might have some trouble guarding in certain matchups so you still give SAR some solid minutes/starts.

 

[Kings113]

I'd be fine with it, but it won't happen.

 

[playmaker0017]

Personally, I think it's premature.

Further, anyone that's seen Reef come from the bench has seen disaster. He's worse off the bench than Kenny. Not because he's playing all pouty, but because he's such a "flow" player. He doesn't attack hard enough to be a decent bench player.

I could go on about how I think the lineup offered is inferior to Reef/Peja being out there, but I'm not going to waste the time quite yet.

 

[BawLa]

Personally, I think it's premature.

Further, anyone that's seen Reef come from the bench has seen disaster. He's worse off the bench than Kenny. Not because he's playing all pouty, but because he's such a "flow" player. He doesn't attack hard enough to be a decent bench player.

I could go on about how I think the lineup offered is inferior to Reef/Peja being out there, but I'm not going to waste the time quite yet.

Fair enough.

I think it was more premature thinking that we could put 5 good scorers out on the floor and have success.

 

[playmaker0017]

I think it was more premature thinking that we could put 5 good scorers out on the floor and have success.

Again, where are we having problems?

On the offensive end or the defensive end?

Who is responsible for our lapses on defense? I'm going to go out on a limb and say it isn't our Reef, who is currently best defender.

Statistically, every position on the floor is giving up more points and a higher FG% than last year .... EXCEPT the PF spot.

So - I just can't see punishing the only player that is beating his man statistically and holding his man to the lowest efficiency on the entire team.

I think you've got to look elsewhere to see the issues.

For some reason people are wanting to worship Miller and Bibby ... yet they have been the biggest defensive liabilities on the floor all year. It's time to question their effort on the floor and NOT the effort of people who have produced since preseason.

 

[BawLa]

Again, where are we having problems?

On the offensive end or the defensive end?

Who is responsible for our lapses on defense? I'm going to go out on a limb and say it isn't our Reef, who is currently best defender.

Statistically, every position on the floor is giving up more points and a higher FG% than last year .... EXCEPT the PF spot.

So - I just can't see punishing the only player that is beating his man statistically and holding his man to the lowest efficiency on the entire team.

I think you've got to look elsewhere to see the issues.

For some reason people are wanting to worship Miller and Bibby ... yet they have been the biggest defensive liabilities on the floor all year. It's time to question their effort on the floor and NOT the effort of people who have produced since preseason.

I mentioned in the initial post that SAR should get some starts and/or good playing time when his defense is needed. With the lineup I suggested you get a good balance of scoring/defense on both the starting end and on the bench end. I didn't say that you play the starters for 40+ min.

 

[MaNiac42]

In light of the recent injuries, we have seen more from supposedly a lesser starting crew. What do you all think of this lineup? Keep in mind it is working with what we have.


Starting: Bibby, Martin, Bonzi, KT, Miller

Bench: Price/Hart, Garcia, Peja/Corliss, SAR, Skinner


This would give us actually more options coming off the bench based on the particular matchup and believe it or not, more rebounding out of the starting crew. We lose some size at the SF, but Bonzi is twice as athletic as Peja so i'm sure he could do a good enough job. KT might have some trouble guarding in certain matchups so you still give SAR some solid minutes/starts.

i like that

 

[BMiller52]

Again, where are we having problems?

On the offensive end or the defensive end?

Who is responsible for our lapses on defense? I'm going to go out on a limb and say it isn't our Reef, who is currently best defender.

Statistically, every position on the floor is giving up more points and a higher FG% than last year .... EXCEPT the PF spot.

So - I just can't see punishing the only player that is beating his man statistically and holding his man to the lowest efficiency on the entire team.

I think you've got to look elsewhere to see the issues.

For some reason people are wanting to worship Miller and Bibby ... yet they have been the biggest defensive liabilities on the floor all year. It's time to question their effort on the floor and NOT the effort of people who have produced since preseason.

Both. And the reason people are "worshiping bibby and miller" is that this team plays much better with them in and shareef and peja out than the other way around. The team scores more points with them out too. But then again I guess mike's 30/5/10 isn't good huh? We're not going to score 100 points with the unathletic line up of peja/shareef/miller/bonzi/bibby out there, and we need to score 100 to win. Not to mention but the ball movement is better when martin, garcia, and kt are in there than when peja, bonzi, and sar are in there, or when martin/garcia, peja, sar are in there. Bonzi, people can tell he's not the problem. The other two we put up more points without them and they're not usually hustling and diving for lose balls and jumping for rebounds(well sar hustles and stuff a bit, but peja gives you NO hustle). And I know that shareef isn't going to the bench, he wanted to play out of position in portland just so he could start. IMO just trade them especially if we keep winning but I know a lot of people think I'm being premature on this so whatever, but we need players who fit.

 

[playmaker0017]

Both.

Really? We're in the top 10 in the league in scoring at JUST UNDER 100 points a game. Last I checked - that's pretty good.

And the reason people are "worshiping bibby and miller" is that this team plays much better with them in and shareef and peja out than the other way around.

Really? It's interesting that you can make that determination considering Reef/Peja have never really been a tandem on the floor together to help make that choice.

The team scores more points with them out too. But then again I guess mike's 30/5/10 isn't good huh?

When Mike averages 30/5/10 then we might talk. One or two game is not enough to erase a career - positively or negatively.

As for scoring more points - it's too small a sample size to make that determination.

We're not going to score 100 points with the unathletic line up of peja/shareef/miller/bonzi/bibby out there, and we need to score 100 to win.

We're averaging almost 100 points. I fail to see how we can't make 100 points if we average 100 points.

Perhaps my math and logic is off, but when you score 99+ PPG, I think you can safely say 100 is within reach.

The issue is that we give up 99PPG also. That's the bigger issue here.

IMO just trade them especially if we keep winning but I know a lot of people think I'm being premature on this so whatever, but we need players who fit.

I agree. Find a way to trade them to Chicago like Brick mentioned. I promise it won't be bad for Chicago.

 

[playmaker0017]

Interesting. I went to see how that lineup has performed over the past few games .... it isn't quite as enticing as it seems for our end result.

Minutes On Floor : 60
Points : 118
Points Given Up : 117
+/- : -1
W : 1
L : 3
W% : 25%

So, that lineup has been on the floor 4 times together and have won one matchup.

I also checked to see how Reef/Peja played without Bibby and Miller.
Minutes : 12
Points : 23
Points Given Up : 14

Not much creedence to the notion that Reef/Peja lineup is terrible, that's for sure.

 

[KP]

How bout we judge by wins and losses. Whatever hapens it will be obvious soon enough. Kings were one of the worst teams in the league with that starting 5, now we'll see if it was all Brad and Mikes fault.

 

[parker]

Interesting. I went to see how that lineup has performed over the past few games .... it isn't quite as enticing as it seems for our end result.

Minutes On Floor : 60
Points : 118
Points Given Up : 117
+/- : -1
W : 1
L : 3
W% : 25%

So, that lineup has been on the floor 4 times together and have won one matchup.

I also checked to see how Reef/Peja played without Bibby and Miller.
Minutes : 12
Points : 23
Points Given Up : 14

Not much creedence to the notion that Reef/Peja lineup is terrible, that's for sure.

Thanks for the stats playmaker. I know stats can lie, but it is nice to have some objective information thrown into the discussion. I remember discussions this presason where people were suggesting that Bibby should be traded because Hart was playing so well.

I'm glad our bench has stepped up. Hopefully, they can continue to play well, but I would be reluctant to suggest that their two game showing is enough to shift the lineup and trade the injured starters.

 

[VF21]

Stats can be very misleading. I, for one, enjoy the exchange of ideas and interpretations much more than bare stats. Simply putting bare stats out is far from objective, since they can be twisted to suit almost any theorem. The idea that Bibby should be traded was put forth by very few members of this board. You can find someone on here to support just about any theory or proposition. It doesn't mean they're speaking for more than themselves, let alone a majority.

I don't think it's time to start looking at a new lineup, but I think there are going to be some changes in the near future anyway. What I saw last night, more than anything else, was a return to the JOY of playing basketball. The group of young men out there were not only playing GOOD basketball, they were having a good time doing it - and that's always been a hallmark of KINGS basketball.

Even SAR's biggest advocates have said he looks as though the spark is gone. Well, I'm sorry, but if the spark is gone, he needs to find a way and/or a place to revive it.

 

[piksi]

Rules of RA coaching

Rule #1 - If You start - You will continue to start untill You are gone. PERIOD

Rule #2 - If You get in his doghouse and You stay there longer - You will be gone soon

Rule #3 - Playing rookies only if necessary and as little as possible.

Rule #4 - ride the starters untill the wheels fall off.

Rule #5 - don't call time out untill the opponent goes on a 20 - 0 run

 

[playmaker0017]

Rule #6: When making a lineup change, no fewer than 4 people need to be exchanged in one bout. This way you achieve maximum ineffectiveness from stiff bodies.

 

[KP]

Rule #7 win over 60% of over 1,000 games in the NBA.

 

[piksi]

Rule #7 win over 60% of over 1,000 games in the NBA.

that rule applies for

10 , 13 , 16 , 4 , 21, 24 , 52.

unfortunately

13, 4, 21, 24 are gone and so is the rule.

You can't win without the talent

 

[BawLa]

Interesting. I went to see how that lineup has performed over the past few games .... it isn't quite as enticing as it seems for our end result.

Minutes On Floor : 60
Points : 118
Points Given Up : 117
+/- : -1
W : 1
L : 3
W% : 25%

So, that lineup has been on the floor 4 times together and have won one matchup.

I also checked to see how Reef/Peja played without Bibby and Miller.
Minutes : 12
Points : 23
Points Given Up : 14

Not much creedence to the notion that Reef/Peja lineup is terrible, that's for sure.

This is not a good argument. I personally enjoy looking at statistics for a part of my analysis. But this is entirely misleading. It says nothing of who they were playing against at that time. Which we can anylize ourselves. It seems like you want our team to all of a sudden become defensively oriented. We are going to give up 100 pts/game. We need to score 110+. We do not have the staff to hold teams to 80 pts. It seems pretty obvious to me. And if you want defense then you want to see energy type players. So please tell us what you think would be a good lineup and why.

 

[Kings241]

I think we should determine the starting lineups according to the matchups each night. If we are going against a good defensive team like the Spurs, then I would say put Reef out there along with Peja, but If we play a team like the Suns who give you a lot of opportunities to score then put KT and Kevin for athleticism.

 

[Bricklayer]

I think we should determine the starting lineups according to the matchups each night. If we are going against a good defensive team like the Spurs, then I would say put Reef out there along with Peja, but If we play a team like the Suns who give you a lot of opportunities to score then put KT and Kevin for athleticism.

That just doesn;t work in practice. The team never develops any cohesion or chemistry if its a new lineup every night.

 

[Warhawk]

That just doesn;t work in practice. The team never develops any cohesion or chemistry if its a new lineup every night.

True, but weren't the Kings the team a couple years ago that scored over 50 wins having the most different starting lineups due to injury?

I think there's more to it than just saying "the starters need to be the same every game". We've won the last 2 with different starters, right?

 

[playmaker0017]

This is not a good argument. I personally enjoy looking at statistics for a part of my analysis. But this is entirely misleading. It says nothing of who they were playing against at that time.

Well, the first lineup is quite obvious who they faced and how they fared.

It's the first time the lineup has been used, so I'm pretty sure it isn't that misleading. They are losing the war when they take the court.

It seems like you want our team to all of a sudden become defensively oriented. We are going to give up 100 pts/game. We need to score 110+. We do not have the staff to hold teams to 80 pts.

That's true, we aren't going to become a team that holds other teams to 80. But, we can hold them to less than 100. It takes effort.

I keep using a football analogy and I'll continue to do so. The best defensive teams in the country control the clock. When you control the football, you run it. You eat the clock right up.

What's that mean in basketball? Control the basketball. Control the shotclock. Don't waste energy chasing the ball up and down the court. Expend it in spurts and last all night.

It's fun and exciting to watch quick basketball ... but you have to have the players to do it. We do not. We have the legs and the energy ... but not the IQ nor the dedication to transition defense.

If this team spent a quarter of the energy it did on offense on the defensive end ... they'd be good.

And if you want defense then you want to see energy type players.

That's just not really true.

So please tell us what you think would be a good lineup and why.

With our current players? Hard to say.

I think the real problem stems from not having a real PG. So, I'd say anything without Bibby ... but we don't have a decent enough replacement ... so it's kind of an effort in futility.

I'd probably lineup:

PG - Price
SG - Wells
SF - Peja
PF - Reef
C - Miller or Skinner

I truly believe that lineup with our bench would beat:

PG - Bibby
SG - Garcia
SF - Martin
PF - Thomas
C - Miller

 

[BawLa]

If this team spent a quarter of the energy it did on offense on the defensive end ... they'd be good.


I'd probably lineup:

PG - Price
SG - Wells
SF - Peja
PF - Reef
C - Miller or Skinner

I truly believe that lineup with our bench would beat:

PG - Bibby
SG - Garcia
SF - Martin
PF - Thomas
C - Miller

I definitely agree with the idea of spending some energy on D. But we are not staffed for most types of defense. We should spend the energy, in short spurts as you suggested, to grab boards, get steals, and the occasional block.

Thank you for elaborating on your thoughts.

The lineup I suggested was:

PG - Bibby
SG - Martin
SF - Bonzi
PF - KT/SAR
C - Miller

And I had Garcia backing up the SG.

 

[VF21]

I definitely agree with the idea of spending some energy on D. But we are not staffed for most types of defense. We should spend the energy, in short spurts as you suggested, to grab boards, get steals, and the occasional block.

Thank you for elaborating on your thoughts.

The lineup I suggested was:

PG - Bibby
SG - Martin
SF - Bonzi
PF - KT/SAR
C - Miller

And I had Garcia backing up the SG.

I think your lineup has a lot of possibilities. I think any Kings lineup that doesn't include Mike Bibby, regardless of the "pure PG" concept, is going to be less effective than one with him out there.

One of the Kings' biggest strengths has been with the fluidity of our players. They aren't always "locked" into the "pure" mold of their position and it's paid dividends for us more often than not.

 

[JJ22L]

I think your lineup has a lot of possibilities. I think any Kings lineup that doesn't include Mike Bibby, regardless of the "pure PG" concept, is going to be less effective than one with him out there.

One of the Kings' biggest strengths has been with the fluidity of our players. They aren't always "locked" into the "pure" mold of their position and it's paid dividends for us more often than not.

"Pure PG" concept or not. Bibby has been playing like a maniac the last few games, and his 10 assist (and getting other people involved, which is what i was concerned about) sure have helped...and resulted in "w's". These last two games have been AI number, except not on 12312312 shots, they have been consistent with scoring otherwise being fairly distributed through starters (I.E. around 20 pts a piece).

 

[Bonzinator]

why should SAR lose his starting job to kenny because of one good game. shareef is a guy that scores inside and kenny is a jumpshooter and the last thing this team needs is a jumpshooter in the starting lineup. our center shoots jumpers enough as it is so we dont need our power forward doing the same thing as a starter.

 

[ESP47]

Kenny has one of the best 17 foot jump shots on the team. Hes shown us that he can consistantly hit that shot 50+% of the time. Not only that but he grabs way more rebounds than SAR. I like Shareef but his lack of rebounding is killing us. I can't stand it when I look at the box score and see that the other team has taken 15 more shots than us.

 

[BawLa]

I can't stand it when I look at the box score and see that the other team has taken 15 more shots than us.

I can't either. It makes me sick. We can't buy a block, steal, or even a rebound with our original starting 5.

 

[VF21]

"Pure PG" concept or not. Bibby has been playing like a maniac the last few games, and his 10 assist (and getting other people involved, which is what i was concerned about) sure have helped...and resulted in "w's". These last two games have been AI number, except not on 12312312 shots, they have been consistent with scoring otherwise being fairly distributed through starters (I.E. around 20 pts a piece).

And THAT is exactly what used to make the Kings so dangerous. When you have four players scoring around 20 points each, the opposing team is extremely hard pressed to control all of them.

 

[Bonzinator]

we can talk all we want but we all know there is no way in the world RA is gonna change the staring 5. the good thing about these injuries is were findinh out we actually have a bench! with K-MART and kenny coming off the bench when the kings get healthy they are a top 5 team in the west no matter what the record is right now