Joerger says he anticipates more small ball
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Kingsfan23
All-Star
This was discussed in the media day thread, the answer is Gay/Casspi/Tolliver being possibly more ready or better fits than WCS next to Cousins. It can be argued Gay and Casspi are two of our better players and both deserve or expect to start. Tolliver may be a better spacing fit if they decide to keep Omri on the bench. WCS needs to prove his worth
jcwkings
All-Star
I think you're underestimating how big a role Matt Barnes will have on the team. Last year he played 29 mpg and in a media day interview he said he is expecting to play 25-30 mpg. He isn't the "Caron Butler" of this year. Unless he falls off a cliff performance wise, you can expect Barnes will be top 7 man rotation wise, and it would not shock me if he starts with Rudy, at least early in the season.
gunks
Hall of Famer
What Kingsfan23 said....
We have nobody full sized who's a lock to start at the 4.
WCS probably made about as bad a first impression as he could have with that pathetic SL showing, but if he turns it around in camp/preseason, coach might start singing a different tune.
In the meantime, I'm just glad he's emphasizing defense instead of pace.
We have nobody full sized who's a lock to start at the 4.
WCS probably made about as bad a first impression as he could have with that pathetic SL showing, but if he turns it around in camp/preseason, coach might start singing a different tune.
In the meantime, I'm just glad he's emphasizing defense instead of pace.
LPKingsFan
All-Star
I've been bracing myself for WCS to get squeezed in the rotation, and this quote seems to support that notion.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Wait'll we trade Rudy for Monroe
Dime Dropper
All-Star
Wait'll we trade Rudy for Monroe
Trying to get your post count up, eh?
gunks
Hall of Famer
Trill gotta earn it with all these scrappy vets we've brought in!
I'm optimistic, despite his SL showing.
K
KingMilz
Guest
I think what he's saying is WCS is going to play the Brandon Wright role off the bench most likely
Kingsfan23
All-Star
He's got competition for that. Koufos by reports is in great shape and was very solid under Joerger in Memphis
K
KingMilz
Guest
No he doesn't imo because he's the only 7 footer on the team who is a freak athlete and no one else can play that role (maybe Skal). The skillset KK brings Cousins already has and can do a million other things better. It would be insane to limit WCS playing time at this point in his career/what the Kings are trying to do.
I think one of Barnes, Temple, Afflalo, Lawson, McLemore, or even WCS gets their minutes shorted a lot this season.
Not sure who...... it could really be any one of these guys.
jcwkings
All-Star
If you heard Joerger talking to press after day two he says he sees Cousins playing sometimes with Barnes, sometimes with Koufos, tells you where he is leaning as of right now, and why not? Kosta and Matt are vets that he has coached/trusts, we all want Willie to take the spot by the horns(though I will cautiously keep my eye on Skal), but coaches are going to go with guys they can trust, it's up to Willie to impress.
As of now I put the starting lineup in coaches eyes as:
Collison
Afflalo
Gay
Barnes
Cousins
Very early but obviously. The positive of that lineup is that Afflalo, Barnes and Gay can all cover each other's men for the most part.
Gliesian
Bench
Last year's bench was supposed to be good... I thought one of the benefits of Karl's fast pace system was having our bench play the opposing team's bench often, where we had an advantage.
Going small means Cuz will pick up more fouls when he tries to help. We should go big to reduce that. Trade either KK or WCS in a package for a PF, or just start WCS and pray that it works.
King Baller
All-Star
So the Kings first 10 games are against the Suns, Spurs, T-Wolves, Hawks, Heat, Magic, Bucks, Raptors, Pelicans and Lakers. Who do these teams start at the 4?
Suns - Bender, Chriss or Dudley?
Spurs - Aldridge
T-Wolves - Payne?
Hawks - Milsap
Heat - Haslem?
Magic - Ibaka
Bucks - ?
Raptors - Patterson?
Pelicans - AD
Lakers - Randle
Who on the Kings do you want defending Aldridge, Milsap, Davis, Ibaka and Randle?
In my opinion the Kings get killed on the boards playing a small at the 4 against those guys. I start Willie at the 4.
Playing Small Ball has its place and it is not at the start of games. Even the Warriors rolled out a Full Size line up to start the games.
Suns - Bender, Chriss or Dudley?
Spurs - Aldridge
T-Wolves - Payne?
Hawks - Milsap
Heat - Haslem?
Magic - Ibaka
Bucks - ?
Raptors - Patterson?
Pelicans - AD
Lakers - Randle
Who on the Kings do you want defending Aldridge, Milsap, Davis, Ibaka and Randle?
In my opinion the Kings get killed on the boards playing a small at the 4 against those guys. I start Willie at the 4.
Playing Small Ball has its place and it is not at the start of games. Even the Warriors rolled out a Full Size line up to start the games.
KingsFanGER
Starter
Actually I think we can expect the Suns, Heat, Bucks, Raptors and Pelicans to play and start small too. Plenty of room to play small in todays league.
Ibaka is not a big threat on the offensive glass, because of his stretch-4 playstyle. That won't change when going small against him, because he will seldomly be asked to play inside with his lack of postmoves and with his role in Orlando in mind.
Milsap is 6'8 and basically the same size like Rudy, Casspi or Tolliver. He won't overpower our guys.
Assuming we will be facing 1 big lineups vs the Pelicans most of the time, the only guy that will give us trouble is Aldridge. And we are one of the few teams, that can match the Spurs big guys on D with Koufos and hopefully WCS.
twslam07
All-Star
When Collison, Gay, Casspi, & Cousins are on the floor with the 5th player not being a PG, they average 44.3 rebounds per 100 possessions. That would put them at #14 in the league. Not great, but acceptable considering the floor spacing we would have on the offensive end. When you look at just defensive rebounds, that lineup averages 36.5 rebounds per 100 possessions. That would be 1st in the league last year! However, the offensive rebounding would be dead last.
To go along with rebounding, you can find many more metrics below for the Collison/Gay/Casspi/Cousins combo (when another PG is not on the floor):
ORTG (points scored per 100 possessions) = 116.0 (1st in the league)
DRTG (points allowed per 100 possessions) = 98.9 (3rd in the league)
NRTG (net points per 100 possessions) = 17.1 (1st in the league)
TS% = 60.6% (1st in the league)
Opponent TS% = 52.7% (8th in the league)
FG% = 52.6% (1st in the league)
Opponent FG% = 42.8% (1st in the league)
3PT% = 31.6% (30th in the league)
Opponent 3PT% = 34.1% (7th in the league)
TOR (Turnovers per 100 possessions) = 16.2 (28th in the league)
ASR (Assists per 100 possessions) = 25.7 (2nd in the league)
TRR (Total rebounds per 100 possessions) = 44.3 (14th in the league)
DRR (Defensive rebounds per 100 possessions) = 36.5 (1st in the league)
ORR (Offensive rebounds per 100 possessions) = 7.8 (30th in the league)
It's pretty surprising to see that combo have the lowest 3PT% in the league considering both Collison & Casspi are excellent shooters from range with Gay & Cousins being respectable. It makes me think that this combo has even more upside if the 3pt shooting increases to just an average level.
Interesting, hadn't had a chance to watch our media day at all..will do that.
I'm not a big fan of Barnes getting heavy minutes at all, and especially at PF. Yes Barnes can still contribute, but you have a big disadvantage if he's your starting PF. Hell, the Clippers even constantly tried to get someone better than him. I'd rather have Barnes at SG than PF.
Joerger does favor playing vets over younger guys, so I could see him favoring Barnes. I hope he changes that mentality this season.
Slow grinding is what helped Joerger win in Memphis. He wanted to move away from that. With the Kings, I'm anticipating a fast pace, so it'll be interesting to see whether or not Joerger will be able to succeed with it. If not, let's see if he's willing to adjust his gameplan mid-way.
If we're playing at a faster pace, this is going to hang the players out to dry. Joerger is a defensive coach who puts a lot of focus, timing, effort, etc on that end. You're really going to have to grasp his defensive concepts and put 100% in every possession. However, then you have to go back on offense and play a higher tempo.
I don't know if that'll work with Cousins. Especially a guy with such a huge offensive load for a team like ours. Yeah, someone like Bogut was able to do it and be ok, but Bogut is only a defensive player. That's the only end he had to focus on. The only thing he really had to do for the GSW offense was set screens.
With all this being said, Joerger is a playoff coach. I could see him being successful with these group of guys. He's extremely qualified, so I have faith in behind his gameplan. I'm really excited to start this season.
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
This team does not have the personnel to play small ball for long durations IMO. I'm willing to make an educated guess that Joerger will know how to use this team better than we all like to think, so in the mean time just leave him to it and see if the results come with it.
gunks
Hall of Famer
I didn't really think he meant fast pace when he was talking small ball. Its just roster issues.
We don't have a starter quality, full sized PF. Just unproven guys, scrappy bench types and 3s who will be asked to play the 4.
We'll see what happens.... This roster isn't that great. Hopefully Rudy actually tries (asking too much?) and ups that trade value enough for Vlade to have some options as far as balancing out our roster goes.
Joerger has to do what he can with what he has. Luckily, it seems like he and Vlade want the same thing moving forward. .... it's how they'll go about getting that/time frame that has me worried!
So basically. .... Trill better ball out. It'll solve a lot of problems.
We don't have a starter quality, full sized PF. Just unproven guys, scrappy bench types and 3s who will be asked to play the 4.
We'll see what happens.... This roster isn't that great. Hopefully Rudy actually tries (asking too much?) and ups that trade value enough for Vlade to have some options as far as balancing out our roster goes.
Joerger has to do what he can with what he has. Luckily, it seems like he and Vlade want the same thing moving forward. .... it's how they'll go about getting that/time frame that has me worried!
So basically. .... Trill better ball out. It'll solve a lot of problems.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Joerger also said he trying to lay down a foundation for the future, and you don't accomplish that by shortchanging your players of the future. They have to get minutes. At least the one's projected to be important in the future, and so far, Willie seems to be one of those. I do expect the pre-season and the first 10 or 15 games to be a shake down cruise of sorts. But I'll be surprised if Willie doesn't get about 25 minutes a game. His defensive abilities alone should get him on the floor. Joerger said it's all about defense, right? Well if that's true, then he has to play Willie.
Coach has some good choices whether he goes small, big, old, young or what-have-you.
Small ball 30 and over crowd: PG Temple, SG Afflalo, SF Gay, PF Barnes, C Tlliver.
26 to 29 crowd: PG Collison, SG Farmar, SF Casspi, PF Cousins, C Koufos.
And if forced to go with the rest (the under 26 crowd): PG I. cousins, SG McLemore, SF Patterson, PF Labissiere,
C Cauley-Stein.
So coach has lots f flexibility ( and choices to make). It's going to be fun and we might even win a game or two.
Small ball 30 and over crowd: PG Temple, SG Afflalo, SF Gay, PF Barnes, C Tlliver.
26 to 29 crowd: PG Collison, SG Farmar, SF Casspi, PF Cousins, C Koufos.
And if forced to go with the rest (the under 26 crowd): PG I. cousins, SG McLemore, SF Patterson, PF Labissiere,
C Cauley-Stein.
So coach has lots f flexibility ( and choices to make). It's going to be fun and we might even win a game or two.
Hrmms. By small-ball, I could see it being Lawson-Collison-Casspi-Barnes-Cousins? This lineup would play 5mins max, if even. Maybe he means a Collison-Affalo-Casspi-Barnes-Cousins lineup?
I think we do have the personnel to play small ball, but I don't know if we gain an advantage by it though.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
The thing is, and this has little to do with smallball, but its still there, this very coach won 50 games, twice, with a Gasol/Koufos center duo and Zach Randolph over at the 4. So you would be hard pressed to tell him that that doesn't work with the right schemes.
The good news for Willie is that Koufos was pretty exclusively Marc's backup in that role -- Marc plays more limited minutes than Boogie, so there was time. And that still leaves the PF minutes open. But the Memphis experience, as well as the attempts at Summer League to see if Willie had any offense in him, make me wonder a bit if Joerger isn't looking for an offensive player, a Zach type PF. Now that WOULD be a problem for Willie. And in fact while normally I would dismiss it as the normal opportunistic chatter, that's why I cannot totally discount the occasional speculation about Gay for Monroe. It goes against the current cool kids orthodoxy, but then again so did those Memphis teams. Its also worth noting that they've talked about Cuz at Webb's old elbow spot, and if Vlade had any thoughts at all of a noveau Princeton approach, Monroe is not only a post player, he's also like Boogie one of the better passers at the position. Squint and you can see him playing Vlade to Cuz's Webb, or Zach to Cuz's Gasol. And all of those possibilities would bode ill for Willie with Koufos playing either himself or Pollard.
K
KingMilz
Guest
Joeger wanted to bench Z-Bo last year to play faster and did but due to injuries had to bring him back into the starting line up and that team probably easily would have won 50 games again if half the team was not injured long term. He could be looking for a Zach type PF but he could also be looking for a Barnes/Casspi/Rudy type which is why I thought WCS would play the Brandon Wright/JayMcal Green role off the bench rather than starting.
