Jason Jones: Kings to take the training wheels off

#31
It is unusual to have so many young players on a team. Next year they all will have another season of experience and some of them should begin to bring the consistency it takes to be NBA starters or rotation players.

Who remembers early this season when the Kings could barely score unless ZBO was putting the ball in the hoop? ZBO takes a lot of flak around here. But he can be a solid contributor in limited minutes IMO.
 
#32
I know you're probably right, but I hate this way of thinking so much. Having young NBA players earn playing time by beating out vets is like you or I starting a new job and our boss comes to us and says if your quality of work isn't higher than the guy who has been here for 6 years then you get fired. Sure if you are a prodigy and everything clicks immediately you are fine and have a shot, but most often than not the guy who has been there longer will perform at a higher level. It drove me nuts when Skal would miss a defensive assignment or two and then Joerger would pull him out and put in Zbo or Koufos. I just don't see how that is any good for player development. It doesn't teach players to learn from mistakes and how to improve on them, only to just be scared of making them.
See bajaden’s post. I think all they want is for the youngsters to be earning their minutes. That didn’t always happen this year.
 

HndsmCelt

Hall of Famer
#33
Hears the thing, on mature functioning teams there are only one or two rookies each season and they are forced to perform to earn play time. The Kings are in the midst of massive upheaval and prospecting more that 3/4 of their roster with young guys on their first NBA contract who have yet prove much in the league and would NOT start on most play off teams some of whom probably would not even see court time. I like most of our young guys but if you are looking at on court performance it is hard to justify starting WCS over KK, JJ over Temple or Skal over even the aged ZBo. That being said there are other guys on the extended roster that put more pressure from behind some of our pet projects. There were nights that Mason's maturity made him a better pg than Fox, Samson, for all his shot comings brought the hustle energy and defense that many people though should have put him in the rotation ahead of Skal and JJ.

To be fair the youngcore aquitted it's self well at the end of the season after coach "took the training wheels off and sat everyone over 26 and under 40. For evidence just look at the box scores and whailing and gnashing of teeth from the tank crew for the last 10 games. But if this team is going to move forward kids who need play time to develop may need to spend time in Stockton getting time. Next season Joerger says the young guys will need to need to earn their time and I am down for that it puts pressure on them to not only edge out the vets, but also to stay ahead of the new rookies and guys on the edges in Stockton. In short there is nothing worth losing for net year and the time is coming where the Kings will need trade non essential talent for better fit talent, and cut loses. I suspect that we are already seeing the last part. weather you agree with his assessment or not it certainly seems that the trade of Richards and cutting Papa was exactly that cutting loses and moving on to new prospects.
 
#34
I think this whole "young guys need to earn their minutes" thing is way overstated, and more than a little parochial. Of course, I also don't think that you just toss young players to the wolves in the hopes that they'll become great through simple exposure. There's certainly a much happier medium to be struck that is neither condescending nor overindulgent.

For example, Gregg Popovich played Tony Parker nearly 30 minutes a game during his rookie season, and nearly 34 in his sophomore season. Those are some big time minutes for a player who was drafted 28th overall, and who few in the NBA thought would amount to anything. And Parker actually was quite erratic early in his career. If he overstepped the boundaries of Pop's gameplan, Pop would call a time out, pull him from the court, give him a fierce tongue lashing, then get him back into the game at the next whistle. He wasn't worried about whether or not Parker had "earned" his minutes. Instead, he made Parker's minutes count by carving out teachable moments from his mistakes. The same went for Manu Ginobili, who drove Pop crazy early in his career with his free-wheeling style of play. But Pop has always known that talent matters above all else, and you need to find ways to harness the talent on your roster, no matter how young or undisciplined. You mold the talent to become more disciplined with time, while preserving that which makes it valuable in the first place. If it can't be disciplined, you cut it loose.

All of that said, I don't think the Kings would be doing themselves any favors next season by gluing their young players to the bench--with all the subtlety of a schoolmarm--until they've "earned" their minutes. You need to see what you have in these guys. Figure out the hierarchy of your young talent, then get as many of them on the court for 30+ minutes a game as you can. And don't just let them struggle through those minutes. Pull them when they make mistakes, but with the knowledge that they will be returned to the court as soon as their error has been made clear to them. I don't like when the coaches of young teams yank their players for making mistakes and then withhold further minutes as an ill-considered kind of punishment. It doesn't teach them anything but to play with fear, and the last thing that any team with future playoff aspirations should want is a bunch of tentative young guys going through the motions and never truly developing (which might not be a bad description for the Kings teams of the last decade or so).
 

HndsmCelt

Hall of Famer
#38
I think this whole "young guys need to earn their minutes" thing is way overstated, and more than a little parochial. Of course, I also don't think that you just toss young players to the wolves in the hopes that they'll become great through simple exposure. There's certainly a much happier medium to be struck that is neither condescending nor overindulgent.

For example, Gregg Popovich played Tony Parker nearly 30 minutes a game during his rookie season, and nearly 34 in his sophomore season. Those are some big time minutes for a player who was drafted 28th overall, and who few in the NBA thought would amount to anything. And Parker actually was quite erratic early in his career. If he overstepped the boundaries of Pop's gameplan, Pop would call a time out, pull him from the court, give him a fierce tongue lashing, then get him back into the game at the next whistle. He wasn't worried about whether or not Parker had "earned" his minutes. Instead, he made Parker's minutes count by carving out teachable moments from his mistakes. The same went for Manu Ginobili, who drove Pop crazy early in his career with his free-wheeling style of play. But Pop has always known that talent matters above all else, and you need to find ways to harness the talent on your roster, no matter how young or undisciplined. You mold the talent to become more disciplined with time, while preserving that which makes it valuable in the first place. If it can't be disciplined, you cut it loose.

All of that said, I don't think the Kings would be doing themselves any favors next season by gluing their young players to the bench--with all the subtlety of a schoolmarm--until they've "earned" their minutes. You need to see what you have in these guys. Figure out the hierarchy of your young talent, then get as many of them on the court for 30+ minutes a game as you can. And don't just let them struggle through those minutes. Pull them when they make mistakes, but with the knowledge that they will be returned to the court as soon as their error has been made clear to them. I don't like when the coaches of young teams yank their players for making mistakes and then withhold further minutes as an ill-considered kind of punishment. It doesn't teach them anything but to play with fear, and the last thing that any team with future playoff aspirations should want is a bunch of tentative young guys going through the motions and never truly developing (which might not be a bad description for the Kings teams of the last decade or so).
With all due respect you have constructed a bit of a straw-man here. No one is saying bench the kids or even don't start them, assuming they are the best at their position. Earning play time is not about sitting and marking days off of the calendar. It is about bringing energy, skill and wits to the game and practice. This season,especially the last 10 or so games, was their shot to earn time. What I am saying is regardless of which vets come back or new talent comes in next season should be about earning starts and play time on the court and in practice. If young guys find themselves third back in the rotation they may need to spend time in the G-league sharping their game and earning time.

Tony Parker WAS the best pg on the team starting him and giving him long min made total sense. However assuming Temple is back next season AND the Kings also bring in a SF either via draft or FA I would expect JJ to earn starts or time by out performing them and I don't care where we picked or how much we paid for the other guys, the same goes for all of them. I am not complaining about what went down this year, I am only saying it is now time to take the next step in building a functional team that hopefully wins games. Young players on established franchises learn from vets on and off the court, just read their interviews and biographies. But that is also the problem when you load up the roster the way Vlade had to with two consecutive waves of rookies and an artificial collection of vets who were cobbled together rather than an organic team that have history and and culture in place before the rooks show up. One of the reasons that Pop could so easily thrust talented young prospects into the line up to get experience were the guys there were out there with. If you have David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Steve Smith, Bruce Bowen, Antonio Danial, Jason Hart etc on on the court that can buy you a first class education in the NBA AND cover a lot of mistakes. Now we are no where near there yet, but as I have advocated elsewhere stability is an incredible intangible and that is one of the reasons I would love to see at least Temple and Koufos back next season as key parts of a stable team the the young talent learn and build from. If Joerger looks at the guys and thinks a starting 5 of WCS Skal, JJ, Bogs and Fox is the best 5man team we have ok but don't just throw minutes to guys because the kids are the future or because they need to play to learn,that is what practice and the G-leage are for. Play the guys that perform and put in the work.
 
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kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#42
Don't want to sound stupid here, but why would they tank for Philly?
Well if they decided to throw the young ones out there from the get go, that would net the Kings a top 5 pick most likely and in return help the tanking process with sending the rights to the pick to Philly
 
#43
Low expectations of our young core it seems. WCS, Skal, Buddy, Bogdan, Fox, Mason, Giles, 2018 pick should be able to earn some playing time over Zbo,KK,Temple,Shump. If playing the young ones at this stage in their development means we lose more games than playing the vets we have, then our young core is...not that good :(
 
#45
Low expectations of our young core it seems. WCS, Skal, Buddy, Bogdan, Fox, Mason, Giles, 2018 pick should be able to earn some playing time over Zbo,KK,Temple,Shump. If playing the young ones at this stage in their development means we lose more games than playing the vets we have, then our young core is...not that good :(
Yep they need to show they can win games in November. I think Giles, Bogdan, Buddy are clear keepers. Fox should be if he learns to play defense and run the offense. Skal is a maybe.
 
#46
Well if they decided to throw the young ones out there from the get go, that would net the Kings a top 5 pick most likely and in return help the tanking process with sending the rights to the pick to Philly
The rights go to Boston unless it’s the 1st overall in which case Philly keeps it and sends Boston their pick.
 
#47
Low expectations of our young core it seems. WCS, Skal, Buddy, Bogdan, Fox, Mason, Giles, 2018 pick should be able to earn some playing time over Zbo,KK,Temple,Shump. If playing the young ones at this stage in their development means we lose more games than playing the vets we have, then our young core is...not that good :(
Seriously, have people even looked at the vets on this team?

End of the bench filler (except maybe KK) and a washed up bum. Our vets aren't good.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#48
...All of that said, I don't think the Kings would be doing themselves any favors next season by gluing their young players to the bench--with all the subtlety of a schoolmarm--until they've "earned" their minutes. You need to see what you have in these guys. Figure out the hierarchy of your young talent, then get as many of them on the court for 30+ minutes a game as you can. And don't just let them struggle through those minutes. Pull them when they make mistakes, but with the knowledge that they will be returned to the court as soon as their error has been made clear to them. I don't like when the coaches of young teams yank their players for making mistakes and then withhold further minutes as an ill-considered kind of punishment. It doesn't teach them anything but to play with fear, and the last thing that any team with future playoff aspirations should want is a bunch of tentative young guys going through the motions and never truly developing (which might not be a bad description for the Kings teams of the last decade or so).
I think you've got it backwards. The kids are going to get the opportunity but will not continue to get minutes unless they're working hard (mistakes and all) to earn them. In addition, if they're not serious in practice then I think they can look forward to NOT starting. There's a combination of the carrot and the stick that will work for each player, and I saw Joerger using it to advantage in the latter part of the season. I have every reason to believe he'll continue to do so, which I know is what a number of us are saying.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#49
Yep they need to show they can win games in November. I think Giles, Bogdan, Buddy are clear keepers. Fox should be if he learns to play defense and run the offense. Skal is a maybe.
At this point, I think Skal is less certain than maybe. He might be the biggest question mark on the team (with the exception of Giles simply because we haven't seen him do anything in a Kings uniform yet).
 
#52
Well if they decided to throw the young ones out there from the get go, that would net the Kings a top 5 pick most likely and in return help the tanking process with sending the rights to the pick to Philly
Would it?!

What was pretty clear to me this season was that it was the young ones that played well and veterans were better for tanking. If you want to tank, just play ZBo.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#53
Would it?!

What was pretty clear to me this season was that it was the young ones that played well and veterans were better for tanking. If you want to tank, just play ZBo.
I suppose we will find out next season with ZBo getting limited minutes most likely and the young ones getting their fair share of minutes from the gate...or not
 
#54
https://www.sactownroyalty.com/2018/4/24/17277200/wee-three-kings

Here’s a great article.

Bogdan and Buddy are phenomenal together probably has to do with the elite shooting involved there. They also fit well with WCS that trio should get a lot of time together next year.
That was a good read. It makes me a bit more sold on Mikal as our pick if possible around 7 as he has legit length to play the 3 and hit the 3. Just wish he had the reputation as a decent facilitator. Donic would be most ideal, although not sure about his defense.
I enjoy the fact Buddy and Bogdan really seem to like each other and should be able to work around playing time without drama.
 
#55
Would it?!

What was pretty clear to me this season was that it was the young ones that played well and veterans were better for tanking. If you want to tank, just play ZBo.
ZBO essentially was the worst defensive player in the NBA last year, probably average to slightly below average on the offensive end.

I mean, Kings had a 116.9 Defensive rating with him on the floor and a 108.6 with him off the floor. Opponents had a 4.5% bump in eFG% when he played. That's actually crazy how bad that is. We somehow let ZBO play 1500 minutes with those defensive splits.

So yeah, ZBO was the play if we wanted to tank.
 
#56
Without looking at any stats, Z-Bo was terrible defensively with the Kings. He was slow and disinterested in playing defense. He'll bang for rebounds, but that rarely stops a guy with the ball from getting to where he wants to be. I said all year that we should be using him judiciously when our offense is stuck and we need a few baskets to get back on track. (But then sit him down again before his defensive liabilities outweigh his offensive contributions.) Unfortunately Joerger didn't listen to me.
Z-Bo still has offensive skills, though. I can't deny that. But after an entire season, I never saw any of our other big men adapt any Z-Bo traits to their offensive games. Not even a single example. I just hope he has some positive impact on our youngsters (somewhere, somehow).