is S.A.R a better center than brad?

[tyrant]

rahim is showing his tail right now. putting up good numbers. scoring inside. with kenny's defensive and rebounding ability and S.A.R's inside scoring prescense (playing together) it kinda makes up for that one talented pf or center that most of us wish sacramento had. and with brad miller coming off the bench that'll give us a pretty big edge against other teams second unit. so i guess my question is this. when miller is in the game is there a positive difference in the flow of our offense?

 

[SacKings384]

Brad is obviously not the mobile defensive prescence that we all would like him to be. However, we have been fortunate to go up agaisnt teams playing small ball (which seems to be the new fad...) There will be teams that play big, particurally the Lakers. Who have Bynum, who absolutely SUCKS against guys his size, yet tears up undersized centers. Brad is a big body that we can stick out there, simply due to the fact that he's 7 foot. I still believe Brad can somehow find his shot, and if he can it can help the stagnant offense. He helps with passing as well. If he becomes a defensive liability on the court, I'm sure Musselman won't have a problem sitting him on the pine.
Rahim has been playing well. But let's look at the opponents here. The one team that had a good front line (Detroit) he went 3-10 shooting. Chicago and Ben Wallace? 2-7 shooting... It's no fluke (Jon Barry) that he plays poorly against these teams. If he isn't faster than them, he suffers. Brad may be slow on rotations, but Rahim is a guy we can put in there if we're getting killed on those rotations... Brad still deserves his starting spot when he comes back.

 

[Folsom Al]

I've always felt BRAD IS NOT A CENTER .... so to answer your question ...

At the center position, with Shareef's athleticism and mobility, in comparison to Brad - absolutely, Shareef is better

 

[Spike]

One thing I noticed last night was that there were several cutters towards the basket that did not get a feed. Miller is pretty good about finding the open man. I guess it really depends upon what this team needs from the center position.
Others have already posted about the small ball aspect so I won't repeat it.

 

[nbrans]

Shareef looks great against his fellow fake centers, but he struggles to get rebounds and points against real centers. So against the fake centers he's the perfect guy to have. Against the real centers the Kings need Brad.

 

[tyrant]

Shareef looks great against his fellow fake centers, but he struggles to get rebounds and points against real centers. So against the fake centers he's the perfect guy to have. Against the real centers the Kings need Brad.

can you elaborate on this please?

 

[nbrans]

can you elaborate on this please?

Actually, I agree with pretty much everything sackings384 said. Against true centers like Tyson Chandler, Yao Ming, Bogut, etc. etc., Shareef struggles on defense, you often see those guys getting rebounds over him and his moves in the post are ineffective because he's bothered by their length. He's basically reduced to a lesser Brad -- he sets up 15 feet out and shoots his semi-accurate jump shot. He can sometimes bother those guys with his quickness, but for the most part he's just outmatched, and justifiably so.

Against the "fake" or bad centers (Swift, Blount, Rasho, etc.), he can be a great asset at center because he can guard them, get rebounds and get his offense going.

Shareef just isn't a center, and while he can beat most power forwards inside and do a good job on offense he's going to struggle against guys who are bigger than him. Since there aren't many good centers in the league right now he's a great asset on most nights, but it's not something that would hold up against the Yaos and Shaqs of the world.

 

[Smills91]

Actually, I agree with pretty much everything sackings384 said. Against true centers like Tyson Chandler, Yao Ming, Bogut, etc. etc., Shareef struggles on defense, you often see those guys getting rebounds over him and his moves in the post are ineffective because he's bothered by their length. He's basically reduced to a lesser Brad -- he sets up 15 feet out and shoots his semi-accurate jump shot. He can sometimes bother those guys with his quickness, but for the most part he's just outmatched, and justifiably so.

Against the "fake" or bad centers (Swift, Blount, Rasho, etc.), he can be a great asset at center because he can guard them, get rebounds and get his offense going.

Shareef just isn't a center, and while he can beat most power forwards inside and do a good job on offense he's going to struggle against guys who are bigger than him. Since there aren't many good centers in the league right now he's a great asset on most nights, but it's not something that would hold up against the Yaos and Shaqs of the world.

Exactly, if you're asking would I feel comfortable starting Shareef at Center over the course of an entire NBA season? ABSOLUTELY not! Can he be a valuable player there, YES! But Brad makes the Kings a better overall basketball team, period.

 

[tyrant]

Brad Miller 6 627.7.404.143.923.502.503.00
2.51.17.831.173.309.2

Shareef Abdur-Rahim
6 021.5.535.000.6001.303.504.801.2.33.002.174.50 9.2


these are the stats from the 1st round last year against the measuring stick of the NBA. the san antonio spurs. and the measuring stick for big men in the league. tim duncan

looking at the stats in bold you'll see rahim and miller averaged the same amount in points. miller did a tad better in assists, but rahim did better in rebounding.

both players are defensive liability's. miller brings outside shooting and passing and may be better at rebounding. his career average is probably 9 reb a game. while rahim's is much less im sure. but rahim has a very good post game and is much quicker in rotations and off the dribble. with rahim starting alongside with kenny thomas it makes up for his lack of rebounding. the thing is that you say rahim can do well against "fake" centers, but gets knocked around by bigger players. but brad miller gets pushed around by players of all size. he's worse at defense. getting outrebounded by the opposing teams' small forward.

 

[Smills91]

Brad Miller 6 627.7.404.143.923.502.503.00
2.51.17.831.173.309.2

Shareef Abdur-Rahim
6 021.5.535.000.6001.303.504.801.2.33.002.174.50 9.2


these are the stats from the 1st round last year against the measuring stick of the NBA. the san antonio spurs. and the measuring stick for big men in the league. tim duncan

looking at the stats in bold you'll see rahim and miller averaged the same amount in points. miller did a tad better in assists, but rahim did better in rebounding.

both players are defensive liability's. miller brings outside shooting and passing and may be better at rebounding. his career average is probably 9 reb a game. while rahim's is much less im sure. but rahim has a very good post game and is much quicker in rotations and off the dribble. with rahim starting alongside with kenny thomas it makes up for his lack of rebounding. the thing is that you say rahim can do well against "fake" centers, but gets knocked around by bigger players. but brad miller gets pushed around by players of all size. he's worse at defense. getting outrebounded by the opposing teams' small forward.

That's a spec in the whole spectrum. Brad Miller makes this team better. Whether you like him or not. Having a big man rotation of Brad, SAR, Kenny, Corliss is a better rotation than SAR, Kenny, Corliss, and Mo Taylor. It's as simple as that.

 

[KevinMartinsGirl23]

Can my answer be "none of the above?" They both bring different attributes, but neither of them are TRUE centers.

But I see your point. I just wish we could have a big athletic center- it seems like Dallas has a number of them. How do teams like that get their hands on em?

 

[nbrans]

But I see your point. I just wish we could have a big athletic center- it seems like Dallas has a number of them. How do teams like that get their hands on em?

Actually, Dallas shows all three ways of doing it. Overpay someone (Dampier), luck into a player who comes out of nowhere to be good (Diop) and good scouting (MBenga)

 

[tyrant]

you're right a rotation with reef,brad,kenny is better than corliss,taylor,reef and kenny.

 

[Bricklayer]

Shareef had a good night -- in some ways his best in literally years. Now setting aside the potential freak value there, fact was he wasn't really playing "center" last night. NEITHER team had a center. Hell, they barely had PFs. It was a freakish midget ball game with two teams starting backup PFs at C, tweener SF/PFs at PF, and running as many guards as they could at all times. Hardly a test of your centerhood. And of course people, having their remarkably short memories, also act like Brad Miller is incapable of getting you 21 and 13 on a given night while playing ****ty interior defense as the other team walk to the front of the rim. Hell, he's given us dozens of those type nights.

 

[Rain man]

I know this is a discussion board, but WHY do we always have to rip on a player? We can't be happy that SAR is playing well in Brad's absence. We have to take it the step further and say that Brad is no good, SAR should be the starter, etc...

SAR is doing a good job fillingthe gap, but he is not a center. I for one will be very happy to get Brad back, and move SAR back to the bench where we will get some semblance of depth again.

Folks, it is okay to think SAR is doing fine without capping on Brad...

 

[Bricklayer]

I for one will be very happy to get Brad back, and move SAR back to the bench where we will get some semblance of death again.

Let me fix that typo for ya before people get scared.

 

[tyrant]

no hatin on miller. just thinking about what's better for this team. brad averaged 15ppg in 37 minutes last year. SAR averaged 12 in 27 minutes. if both players played for a full 48 minutes a game and these stats remain consistant SAR would average 21ppg where brad would only average about 18.

but right here im just making a point that sar is a better scorer than miller.

SAR is doing a good job fillingthe gap, but he is not a center

What IS a Center? because all of the qualities of a true center in this league does not appertain to brad miller. except he's 7ft tall. he can't jump, cant block shots, can't defend, can't score in the post. he is the complete opposite from everything we grew up watching as kids.

 

[CalBears1]

In my opinion, the Kings chemistry looks pretty good right now. When Miller comes back, I say bring him off the bench and keep SAR in the starting lineup to keep the chemistry going. Maybe slowly work Miller back into the starting lineup, but not right away.

 

[Rain man]

Let me fix that typo for ya before people get scared.

HAHA- good catch.. wouldn't want people REALLY freaking out...

 

[Kingzrool]

In my opinion, the Kings chemistry looks pretty good right now. When Miller comes back, I say bring him off the bench and keep SAR in the starting lineup to keep the chemistry going. Maybe slowly work Miller back into the starting lineup, but not right away.

We will have to see how the chemistry is when Miller gets closer to comming back. Muss may change his game plan, one thing is for sure, he is not as steadfast as Adelman was with his starting 5. I like the idea of matching our starters to the opposing team. It would be funny to have both SAR and KT start after all that fuss about which would start.

side note - didn't someone just yesterday say that we could expect a double double from SAR at anytime and he should be treated as such? I think Brick dissed him and mentioned the last time he did get a double double as last January or something. No point, but it is ironic that he got a double double that very night.

 

[Entity]

Shareef had a good night -- in some ways his best in literally years. Now setting aside the potential freak value there, fact was he wasn't really playing "center" last night. NEITHER team had a center. Hell, they barely had PFs. It was a freakish midget ball game with two teams starting backup PFs at C, tweener SF/PFs at PF, and running as many guards as they could at all times. Hardly a test of your centerhood. And of course people, having their remarkably short memories, also act like Brad Miller is incapable of getting you 21 and 13 on a given night while playing ****ty interior defense as the other team walk to the front of the rim. Hell, he's given us dozens of those type nights.

Come on brick he had good games last year in fact had 1 game with 23 12 and 7 had another 14 13 and 6 with 2 blks he had a 23 11 with 4 blks. so maybe his best game since his broken jaw

 

[Bricklayer]

Come on brick he had good games last year in fact had 1 game with 23 12 and 7 had another 14 13 and 6 with 2 blks he had a 23 11 with 4 blks. so maybe his best game since his broken jaw

You have in fact named all three of the other times Reef has blessed us with a double double, and I will confess to in fact having forgotten about that Phoenix game -- the 23 12 an 7 in his third game with us which was in fact better than tonight. But when healthy Brad will give you a couple of those every month himself, which was the point.

 

[LPKingsFan]

From 82games.com

SAR's net production PER at PF: 8.2
Miller's net production PER at C: 4.1
SAR's net production PER at C: -6.1

Not saying the numbers are perfect, but an interesting point nonetheless.

 

[LPKingsFan]

Also interesting:

Corliss at C: -0.8
Corliss at PF: 28.2

Kenny at PF: -9.4
Kenny at SF: 7.5

Salmons at SG: -1.8
Salmons at SF: -7.5

Artest at SF: 6.3
Artest at PF: 14.5

Martin at PG: 32.0
Martin at SG: 14.3

Garcia at SG: -15.4
Garcia at SF: -11.6

So going from 82games.com pure sabermetrics, we should trot out Kenny at SF, Ron at PF, Corliss as PF, Martin as PG, Salmons as SG, Garica as SF... etc

 

[Kev.in]

If Brad gets his "mojo" back then he is the better player and the better center. If he's going to play like he has been in 2006 then Shareef is definitely the better option.

 

[diggining]

So going from 82games.com pure sabermetrics, we should trot out Kenny at SF, Ron at PF, Corliss as PF, Martin as PG, Salmons as SG, Garica as SF... etc

The funny thing is, I think defensively Kevin's best position is indeed PG. He's more than quick enough to guard most PGs in the league (the kings were probably most effective when they put Kevin on Parker last year), whereas there are some SG's who can really take advantage of his lack of bulk (Even Mobley had his way posting up on Martin last season. He's improved in this aspect this season, but I still don't want Martin guarding a guy like Bonzi).

Also, defensively, Kevin Martin really does complement Artest very well. Artest can guard 2s, 3s, and really most 4s in a league with a lot of small-ball teams right now, and he's sometimes placed on 1s, but he's really not quick enough to guard the likes of Parker or Terry. Kevin provides the quickness to guard these guys, whereas Artest can take care of the more bulky swingman types.

 

[BigSong]

at this point i just dont see Brad as a reliable starter for us any more. ever since he broke his leg hes struggled, and i dont believe it is because of any lack of effort on his part. his body is just wearing out. that being said Sar is getting mighty slow as well. sar is not mobile and he is not athletic. its why he gets beat on the glass, and why his fouls per game are up. he simply isnt a solid guy overall in the paint. hes got some sweet go to moves and can school guys on occasion but thats it. my answer to the topics question would be no ,but we need a new center anyway.

 

[BigWaxer]

Shareef had a good night -- in some ways his best in literally years. Now setting aside the potential freak value there, fact was he wasn't really playing "center" last night. NEITHER team had a center. Hell, they barely had PFs. It was a freakish midget ball game with two teams starting backup PFs at C, tweener SF/PFs at PF, and running as many guards as they could at all times. Hardly a test of your centerhood. And of course people, having their remarkably short memories, also act like Brad Miller is incapable of getting you 21 and 13 on a given night while playing ****ty interior defense as the other team walk to the front of the rim. Hell, he's given us dozens of those type nights.

I was just going to say NO Reef is not a better Center. However your answer will do LOL

It's IMO just poor judgement to make an assumption after one or two good games. Brad has an entire career behind him. He is not your typical center sure, but how many pure centers are in the league these days?