If the Draft Were Today...

kb02 · Aug 29, 2020

Philly fans would think that is a serious overpay. Phily fans think a fair trade is Buddy/Filler for Horford/Zhaire/Filler/a future second. You mention Thybulle and they scream bloody murder, pricing him in a tier slightly below Embid/Simmons. Now, fans are not the team, but that's their sentiment.

Whoever our next GM is, if a trade to Philly is what happens (given the fit for both teams), he/she better get a sizeable return on future assets for taking on the contract of either Horford or Harris.

As for Horford, you willing to eat the last few years of his contract if he becomes ZBO 2.0? Of all of Vlade's horrible signings, in hindsight, that was probably the worse. The Kings swept it under the rug, but they basically gave him a 1 year retirement parachute--they literally gave him the okay to stay home. At first it was to deal with family issues (the death of his bro) then later they wanted to create playing time for Bagley. That was a Scott Perry, I'll sign an aging vet to help out an agent, so he'll help me out later special. Just another reason why Scott Perry as a leading GM candidate is such a head scratcher.

funkykingston · Aug 29, 2020

alden.viado said:

This will receive a lot of backlash but I would trade Hield, Jabari Parker and one of our second round picks to the Sixers for Horford, Thybulle, Zhaire Smith and Pick 21.

Yes Horford is overpaid, lost a step and older but he's a steady vet that can contribute and be a steady presence to a young team. And you don't have to always play him big minutes anymore.

C - Horford/Holmes/2nd round pick
PF - Bagley/Belly/Jalen Smith (21st pick)
SF - Barnes/Thybulle/J.James/Jeffries (2-way)
SG - Bogi/Nesmith (12th pick)/Z.Smith/FA pick up
PG- Fox/Joseph/Tre Jones (2nd pick)

Nesmith becomes our prospect 'buddy', but the defense becomes so much better

*Giles we loose in FA to Celts. He follows his best mate Tatum

I think Philly says no.

Side note, the Kings can't trade Parker unless he exercises his player option for next year.

kb02 · Aug 29, 2020

kb02 said:

Philly fans would think that is a serious overpay. Phily fans think a fair trade is Buddy/Filler for Horford/Zhaire/Filler/a future second. You mention Thybulle and they scream bloody murder, pricing him in a tier slightly below Embid/Simmons. Now, fans are not the team, but that's their sentiment.

Whoever our next GM is, if a trade to Philly is what happens (given the fit for both teams), he/she better get a sizeable return on future assets for taking on the contract of either Horford or Harris.

As for Horford, you willing to eat the last few years of his contract if he becomes ZBO 2.0? Of all of Vlade's horrible signings, in hindsight, that was probably the worse. The Kings swept it under the rug, but they basically gave him a 1 year retirement parachute--they literally gave him the okay to stay home. At first it was to deal with family issues (the death of his bro) then later they wanted to create playing time for Bagley. That was a Scott Perry, I'll sign an aging vet to help out an agent, so he'll help me out later special. Just another reason why Scott Perry as a leading GM candidate is such a head scratcher.

Plus the backpack full of weed incident prior ZBO’s first season with the Kings. That was the biggest red flag of all. Dude was already in retirement mode. The Kings could’ve cut him, but they didn’t.

The_Jamal · Aug 29, 2020

funkykingston said:

I think if you upgraded to Buddy/Bjelica, took out Smith on the other side, you might be able to convince them:

Horford/21/Thybulle for Buddy+Bjelica

If Philly wants any hope of getting rid of Horford, this is about the best they can do without diving into more of their future 1st rounders and finding 2 pieces that fit their team construction like an absolute glove. Let's them move Harris down to the 4 full-time, Buddy slots right in to 2 excellent perimeter defenders in Simmons and Jrich and Bjelica backs up both Embiid and Harris as the 3rd big, finally giving them spacing. I don't see what choice Philly really has if they want to keep Simmons and Embiid heading into next season. It's obvious they're going to waste this window if they just run it back.

For us, you get 2 excellent rebuilding pieces and a C, while grossly overpaid, is still actually good and works next to Bagley because of his defense and spacing ability.

Joshoua · Aug 30, 2020

The_Jamal said:

In Philadelphia forums there fans are delusional and think we’d do trades with them not involving Thybulle, it’s actually funny

Honesty if it took Buddy/Bjlecia/12 to get Thybulle/Horford/ and Philadelphia 1st (21st overall projected) I’d do it.
Thybulle is an elite defender who’ll be an all nba defender soon and shot 35.7% from 3 on 3.5 attempts this year.

King Baller · Aug 30, 2020

Joshoua said:

Horfords contract alone is going to be hard for a team to swallow in this Covid-19 era. The reduced team income is going to create cash flow shrinkage for sure. Arena income is nil and I suspect the TV money will be shrinking. Advertising has to be in shock over recent events. If the players had chosen to cancel this seasons playoff a lot of players would have been without work and an income. The collective bargaining agreement between the players and owners would have been voided. Lawsuits pitting each side against the other would have ensued. The Players were flirting with killing their golden goose and perhaps still are. For now cooler heads have prevailed.

I'm guessing the cost to unload Horford will be two first round picks or in this case one pick and Thybulle. Moving both Buddy and Bjelly removes two of the Kings best 3 pint shooters.

So IMO the Kings ability to absorb a contract like Horfords is an unknown at this point. I like Horford as a player, Thybulle is a defensive beast and picks are a small market teams life blood.

But until the money side of the NBA returns to some semblance of what it was I would say the Kings can't afford a move like this.

The_Jamal · Aug 30, 2020

Joshoua said:

eh, nah pass on this. We're the ones saving them from their mistake and would have all the leverage in this trade. good luck finding a better piece coming back or another team willing to take the Horf contract.

rosa u podne · Aug 30, 2020

The_Jamal said:

I am not sure Philly would accept Bjelica, because of how their last contract negotiations ended up.

King Baller · Aug 30, 2020

rosa u podne said:

I'm pretty sure Bjelly would not want to be in Philly. Those Philly fans are a tough crowd and would make life difficult for Bjelly and his family. He would go play elsewhere.

jcassio · Aug 30, 2020

The_Jamal said:

I like your pref’d restart. This is something I might be able to live with. Though I hate the idea of just walking away from Bogi with nothing to show for it. Also, not sure Barnes is tradeable right now with his bloated, front-end loaded contract.

ockingsfan · Sep 10, 2020

The more video I watch of Saddiq Bey, the more I see "Alpha scorer" potential that the Kings badly need. He reminds me of a bigger Donovan Mitchell. I can see him develop into a 20+ppg scorer in the league.

I would be happy with Bey, Nesmith or WIlliams at the 12 spot. I think the Kings will have a lot of good options at 12.

jiimbob · Sep 10, 2020

ockingsfan said:

Williams I have warmed up to, hope he can successfully and consistently play 3, Bey not yet.
Nesmith is a shooter for sure but questions about him as a facilitator concern me. Will he be any better than Buddy shooting excluded.
So if the draft were today I would hope Vassell would fall if not Williams or Lewis.

krylia sovetov · Sep 11, 2020

i would skip any kind of business with sixers, but also, i don't have a clue how good thybulle is.
horford/harris or not, we'll still probably be a 33-35 wins team. not to mention cap issues.

somebody wrote that we should trade buddy to atlanta for a 6th pick and grab killian hayes. i say let's do it, if its possible.
12th pick, saddiq, maybe we can retain bogdan, maybe not, and let's roll.

we need a pass-first point guard desperately. joseph can fill doug christie's shoes as defensive SG.

this is the era of point guards and shooters...

kb02 · Sep 11, 2020

ockingsfan said:

I don’t see Mitchell, because I don’t see a three level scorer in the NBA. I see a whole lot of Buddy Hield. Elite shooting, below average athleticism, 100% effort, & better defense (per Baja). Side note: my gripes with Buddy are well noted here, but I’ve never said dude doesn’t go 100%. Respect in that regards.

But then again, my thoughts are based on highlights rather than hours of tape, so you may be right and I’m wrong.

bajaden · Sep 11, 2020

jiimbob said:

Not sure why you warmed up to Williams but not Bey. Bey is a better player right now. Williams may become a very good player, he's not where Bey is right now. Bey shot 45.1% from the three this past season and he took 5.5 three's a game. Williams shot 32.0% from the three and took 1.7 three's a game. Bey was the best defensive player on the Villanova team. I hope Vassell falls as well, but it's not likely to happen, and if you want a player that can play two positions, SF and PF, and can guard at least 4 positions, then Bey is your guy. Williams may be that guy in the future, but he's not right now.

bajaden · Sep 11, 2020

kb02 said:

Well, first, Bey wouldn't try to make some of the passes Buddy tries. Bey has great BBIQ and doesn't try to do things he's not capable of. Fact: He hardly ever turned the ball over. Second, Buddy is a SG and Bey isn't. He doesn't have the handles, at least right now, to play that position. I would say that if your looking for a weakness in Bey, it would likely be his ball handling, which isn't terrible, but certainly not good enough to be a facilitator. It's and area where he can improve, and I'm sure he will since he's a very hard worker. Third, Bey isn't a below average athlete. He's not an elite athlete either like Fox or Bagley, but he's as good an athlete as most of the SF's in the NBA, and he couldn't be a good defender without being a good athlete.

I'm always amazed with the athleticism criticism. I had people argue with me on this forum that James Harden wasn't a good athlete. That Blake Griffin wasn't a good athlete. I have no idea what those people were watching. For one thing, great athlete's don't have it on display all the time. They use it when needed, especially when they happen to be skilled as well. In general, those that have their athleticism on display all the time usually aren't that skilled. Athleticism is all they have.

Look, I'm not getting paid to endorse Bey. I'd rather have Vassell, but I doubt he'll last long enough to get to us. I love Kira Lewis as well, but think we need a wing more than another PG, although I could make a counter argument. I just think that it's likely that Bey will be the best wing available when our turn comes. But there are some others who could end up being as good or better than either Bey of Vassell. Players like Robert Woodard or Tyler Bey (no relation). It's always a bit of a crap shoot, and this year maybe even more so.

kb02 · Sep 11, 2020

bajaden said:

Well, first, Bey wouldn't try to make some of the passes Buddy tries. Bey has great BBIQ and doesn't try to do things he's not capable of. Fact: He hardly ever turned the ball over. Second, Buddy is a SG and Bey isn't. He doesn't have the handles, at least right now, to play that position. I would say that if your looking for a weakness in Bey, it would likely be his ball handling, which isn't terrible, but certainly not good enough to be a facilitator. It's and area where he can improve, and I'm sure he will since he's a very hard worker. Third, Bey isn't a below average athlete. He's not an elite athlete either like Fox or Bagley, but he's as good an athlete as most of the SF's in the NBA, and he couldn't be a good defender without being a good athlete.

I'm always amazed with the athleticism criticism. I had people argue with me on this forum that James Harden wasn't a good athlete. That Blake Griffin wasn't a good athlete. I have no idea what those people were watching. For one thing, great athlete's don't have it on display all the time. They use it when needed, especially when they happen to be skilled as well. In general, those that have their athleticism on display all the time usually aren't that skilled. Athleticism is all they have.

Look, I'm not getting paid to endorse Bey. I'd rather have Vassell, but I doubt he'll last long enough to get to us. I love Kira Lewis as well, but think we need a wing more than another PG, although I could make a counter argument. I just think that it's likely that Bey will be the best wing available when our turn comes. But there are some others who could end up being as good or better than either Bey of Vassell. Players like Robert Woodard or Tyler Bey (no relation). It's always a bit of a crap shoot, and this year maybe even more so.

To be clear, I meant an SF version of Buddy Hield. The lack of handles being his biggest hurdle to being a three level scorer and the ability to create for others off the bounce like Mitchell.

bajaden · Sep 11, 2020

kb02 said:

Gotcha! Mitchell is a tough comparison because the thing he was noted for in college was his ability to get to the basket and finish. He wasn't considered a good three pt shooter, something he's obviously improved at. Meaning Mitchell was an excellent ball handler, but he's also a combo guard who can play a little point. Bey is a SF/PF. It would be nice if he had Mitchell's ball handling skills, but I don't think it makes him a liability. He was starting to show a little shake and bake toward the end of the college season.

One of the reasons I like Vassell is his ability to play the SF and the SG positions. I think he would struggle a bit at PF at his current weight. But he's a good ball handler and a very good athlete.

funkykingston · Sep 11, 2020

Bey is a player I haven't found a great NBA comp for, unlike say Okoro, who reminds me a lot of Artest. Right now I think DeMarre Carroll which is close but not quite there.

To me Bey is a high floor player who projects as a role playing starter with a bit of potential to be significantly more. I definitely wouldn't be upset if the Kings call his name in draft night, whenever that may be.

AMR42700 · Sep 11, 2020

ockingsfan said:

I actually saw him as a middling prospect in the mold of Marvin Williams or Al Farouq Aminu. Then I saw an ability to make plays, pass, create his own shot. His tapes are very impressive and I like him a lot. Outside of Avdija and Okoro currently out of our range, I like him next. He grew on me kind of the same way you describe he did for you.

bajaden · Sep 12, 2020

When evaluating players in this draft, remember that this is a draft with no Lebron's or Jordans at the top. So don't go into this draft expecting any player we draft to be an instant star. As I've said before, there are ten to eleven players in next years draft that would likely be the first pick in this years draft. So with that in mind, what exactly does saying a player in this draft has a high ceiling, mean? I'm sure we would all agree that the ceiling for Lebron was higher then, than the ceiling is for Edwards now.

To use an old quote, Vince Lombardi once said. "The word potential means you haven't done anything yet". So while I'm more than willing to take a gamble on the potential of a Lebron, I'm not willing to do the same on a player like Edwards. At least not in the lottery. In this draft I'm looking and betting on results. That means players that have already proven to me that they can display important skills. Skills valued in the NBA. If that means I only end up with a solid rotational player that fits into the system of the team, then I'm happy.

If it means that I end up with a solid starter, so much the better. There are some drafts where you throw caution to the wind and go for the brass ring. This isn't one of them. We could have taken a player with a proven record and a European championship under his belt, but instead we went for potential and athleticism. We could have taken a proven player that had just led his college team to an NCAA championship, but instead we traded down to take a gamble on to lower picks.

I know some will disagree with me, but when a proven player is staring you right in the face, take that player, instead of taking a gamble on a player you hope, eventually will be better than the one you passed up. Casinos get rich off people who think they'll be the one to beat the odds. Lastly, if a team has done it's homework, and believes in a player, forget what the mock drafts say and take that player. You either believe in your system and scouting staff or you don't. And if you don't, then why have them?

jiimbob · Sep 12, 2020

bajaden said:

I’ve watched a few more Bey videos to see what I’m missing. It’s probably a narrow approach to formulate opinions, still its what I based that last post on. I can see your point, Bey doesn’t scream great athlete, Williams does.. but what looked like lack of great athleticism is what I thought about Donic and was wrong to underestimate other skillsets.

bajaden · Sep 12, 2020

jiimbob said:

I'm not going to say that athleticism is overrated. That would be stupid. But it's not the be all end all. The NBA hall of fame is full of average athlete players that were highly skilled. Give me a team full of skilled over achiever's and I'm a happy man. Curry isn't a great athlete and neither is Jokic and for that matter, neither is his running mate, Murray. But all those players are skilled.

I've never understood why a team would pass on a player who is 6'10", scores 20 pt's a game and grabs 10 or 11 boards a game but is a junior, for a freshman player who is also 6'10" but only scores 11 pt's a game, and grabs 6 or 7 boards a game because he's more athletic.

KingsFanSince85 · Sep 13, 2020

bajaden said:

IDK how anybody could have watched that kid play in college then come to that conclusion. That’s the #1 thing he’s been known for. Then and early in his NBA career.

kb02 · Sep 13, 2020

KingsFanSince85 said:

Yea, Griffin is a bad example. A better example would be KAT, especially relative to his college teammate WCS.

midtowner · Sep 13, 2020

Sometimes people view “athletic” through a very narrow lens. Attributes like anticipation, hand-eye coordination, stamina, core strength and flexibility, stopping ability, and footwork get thrown in the “skill bucket”. But if you can run fast and jump high you are a great athlete.

Groovygreg · Sep 13, 2020

Give me a player that has tangible skill(s) AND toughness.

bajaden · Sep 15, 2020

KingsFanSince85 said:

Go back to that time period on this fourm and you'll be surprised to see how many people argued with me about Griffin's athleticism. I agree that it sounds ridiculous, and that's exactly why I brought it up. There are people that don't know what the hell they're talking about.

bajaden · Sep 15, 2020

kb02 said:

No, it's a great example because it shows how uneducated some people can be. I agree that I have no idea how anyone could have thought Griffin was an average athlete, but go back and look at the conversations I had in that time period. I agree that KAT is another example.

KingsFanSince85 · Sep 15, 2020

bajaden said:

Oh, I believe you that it happened. No doubts about that. Just don’t get it, is all.

Your point is certainly a very, very good one.

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