I need input - Debate with some friends

[DocHolliday]

Ok, so the basic premise of this debate started when a friend of mine said Wilt, Dr. J. those guys changed the game....I added Jordan was also a player that changed the game...

He said no, Jordan did not change the game. I had a huge problem with this. I have no problem with Wilt and Dr. J being guys who changed the game, but so did Jordan. I look at the torch being passed from Dr. J, to Jordan. But, Jordan did not shadow Dr. J's style. He defined his own style, and changed the way the game was played.

He inspired an entire generation of Basketball players. Players that wanted to mirror their game after his, he created a style, he left his footprint on the game. He re-defined above the rim to me.

What are your thoughts?? Again I have no problem with Wilt and Dr. J, I agree with that part. But, put any generational biases aside and give me your objective opinions about Jordan. I mean in my eyes he's easily top 5 to play of ALL TIME in the NBA. How can a person that is that great of a player not have changed the game?

Ok.....GO!

 

[kingsnation]

Ask ANY person walking down the street to name 1 person who changed the game of basketball and 95% would say Jordan whether they watched basketball or not. So that's the end of the argument for me.

On top of that, one could argue that while Dr.J and Wilt had significant impacts on the game, Jordan made the game international just by saying his name.

 

[Bricklayer]

I'm not actually sure he did, at least not to the level of the other guys. Being first helps, and Jordan wasn't. He was greatest, but not first.

But I do think he obviously redefined just how enormous a star a professional basketball player could become, and inspired a legion of wannabe copycats, so its certianly not like he had no impact. He just wasn't the pioneer figure. The game was well established, above the rim was well established (in part by Dr. J).

 

[Jespher]

I'm not actually sure he did, at least not to the level of the other guys. Being first helps, and Jordan wasn't. He was greatest, but not first.

But I do think he obviously redefined just how enormous a star a professional basketball player could become, and inspired a legion of wannabe copycats, so its certianly not like he had no impact. He just wasn't the pioneer figure. The game was well established, above the rim was well established (in part by Dr. J).

Marketing, however, wasn't and that was where Michael Jordan truly changed the game.

 

[Double-K]

Well Michael Jordan was definitely the first who change the fashion of NBA from

to

 

[pdxKingsFan]

For my money Jordan changed the game but not in ways I consider altogether positive. It seems like a whole decade was spent trying to crown "the next Jordan" and most of the guys tagged were selfish me-first players with a fraction of the marketing value that Jordan had. Now a lot of this is on Stern, Nike and others but the whole preferential treatment for a handful of stars is carry over of the Jordan era.

 

[cstorm]

Whoever got rid of those tight shorts is the guy who gets my "Changed the Game" vote.

 

[drboiffard]

For my money Jordan changed the game but not in ways I consider altogether positive. It seems like a whole decade was spent trying to crown "the next Jordan" and most of the guys tagged were selfish me-first players with a fraction of the marketing value that Jordan had. Now a lot of this is on Stern, Nike and others but the whole preferential treatment for a handful of stars is carry over of the Jordan era.

Exactly. IMHO it's not that obvius he changed the game itself, but he did started the starsystem as it is known nowadays, making the difference between euro basketball and american basketball deeper, puting the emphasis more on the star than the team itself. More than the game itself, Jordan started one of the biggest revolutions in basketball mentallity, which maybe are not in the most technical and tactical parts of the game, but which has changed completely everything else, from franchise building to marketing. A HUGE mentallity change that reached it's highest and sadliest peak just a few years ago, in the figure of a superloser like Allen Iverson.

I'll take a quote from swissh that I liked a lot, it was more on the starsystem than Jordan, but it's precissely what Jordan seeded.

NBA and American ball since Jordan has become about the star, and the star gets the glory and less of the blame(proportionally). Jordan could chuck a lot of shots in a game and nobody questioned it, but if his teammate was passed the ball and missed badly, Jordan would be in his face. It's not that you let the team down, it is that you let The Star down. The star avoids contempt and hatred, and takes less blame for a loss despite holding the ball more than others, simply by putting up production. When the team is winning, the Star is nigh unquestionable and the support players almost peasantry. It is a bit of Machiavelli, and certainly the Machiavellian idea that Tupac popularized into urban culture.

 

[Prince_XY]

Ok, so the basic premise of this debate started when a friend of mine said Wilt, Dr. J. those guys changed the game....I added Jordan was also a player that changed the game...

He said no, Jordan did not change the game. I had a huge problem with this. I have no problem with Wilt and Dr. J being guys who changed the game, but so did Jordan. I look at the torch being passed from Dr. J, to Jordan. But, Jordan did not shadow Dr. J's style. He defined his own style, and changed the way the game was played.

He inspired an entire generation of Basketball players. Players that wanted to mirror their game after his, he created a style, he left his footprint on the game. He re-defined above the rim to me.

What are your thoughts?? Again I have no problem with Wilt and Dr. J, I agree with that part. But, put any generational biases aside and give me your objective opinions about Jordan. I mean in my eyes he's easily top 5 to play of ALL TIME in the NBA. How can a person that is that great of a player not have changed the game?

Ok.....GO!

Your friend is probably old.

I have this kind of an argument with my Dad about comparing basketball of the old times and the basketball of today. I said Wilt probably would just be an ordinary slow center in this era with not that much skill. Yeah, he was all that great during his time when hardly there are other 7-foot centers who can match him. But with the likes of Olajuwon, Shaq, and Howard now and all those hefty centers of the recent past who got moves, Wilt will not be Wilt on this recent NBA style. He said NO. I dared him to watch old clips of Wilt's highlights and afterwards he said.....oh well you are right. He even agreed how players are more skilled and ambidextrous now a days. But still he insisted nobody plays better like those old time greats.

Let him watch clips of the slower Dr. J and the flashier MJ and see what happens.

 

[Aenadin]

the guy who invented the shot clock... he revolutionized the game more than these guys.. can you imagine the nba today if there was no shot clock!?

 

[Aenadin]

the guy who invented the shot clock... he revolutionized the game more than these guys.. can you imagine the nba today if there was no shot clock!?

howard hobson was his name right? if it wasnt for him the nba would be dead.. it was so boring before the shot clock i can imagine.

 

[DocHolliday]

Your friend is probably old.

I have this kind of an argument with my Dad about comparing basketball of the old times and the basketball of today. I said Wilt probably would just be an ordinary slow center in this era with not that much skill. Yeah, he was all that great during his time when hardly there are other 7-foot centers who can match him. But with the likes of Olajuwon, Shaq, and Howard now and all those hefty centers of the recent past who got moves, Wilt will not be Wilt on this recent NBA style. He said NO. I dared him to watch old clips of Wilt's highlights and afterwards he said.....oh well you are right. He even agreed how players are more skilled and ambidextrous now a days. But still he insisted nobody plays better like those old time greats.

Let him watch clips of the slower Dr. J and the flashier MJ and see what happens.

You would think he was older, but he's only 3 years older. He's also a sixers fan, but he's also a fan of the Kings.

And, Wilt was a genetic freak ahead of his time, but he would not be able to score 100 in this day and age. The talent around him was just not up to his level. Also, if you ask people who were around back then, they will tell you Wilt jumped and picked a quarter off the TOP of the backboard. I've heard that story from numerous people, I'm not personally sure if it's true. But he was a genetic freak.

And for others that mentioned NBA fashion, that was brought up by somebody supporting that Jordan changed the game along with me. He said marketing, and the shorts changed the game as well. I do agree with that.

 

[kennadog]

Your friend is probably old.

I have this kind of an argument with my Dad about comparing basketball of the old times and the basketball of today. I said Wilt probably would just be an ordinary slow center in this era with not that much skill. Yeah, he was all that great during his time when hardly there are other 7-foot centers who can match him. But with the likes of Olajuwon, Shaq, and Howard now and all those hefty centers of the recent past who got moves, Wilt will not be Wilt on this recent NBA style. He said NO. I dared him to watch old clips of Wilt's highlights and afterwards he said.....oh well you are right. He even agreed how players are more skilled and ambidextrous now a days. But still he insisted nobody plays better like those old time greats.

Let him watch clips of the slower Dr. J and the flashier MJ and see what happens.

The problem comparing across eras is that the players of the past also did not have access to the resources that today's players have.

Who knows what Wilt could've been in today's basketball, if he'd had access to the training, equipment, nutrition, better medical care/procedures and all the other things that a superior athlete often has available from an early age these days. Heck, Tyreke hired himself a personal trainer at 15!

I mean the shoe back then was converse hightops. Wilt would likely still be great among today's players, given equality of all those factors.

 

[Bricklayer]

In this case older = more perspective.

Its like somebody today saying OMG HDTV is the most revoltionary invention ever! to somebody who was alive when TVs were still 12" black and whites with bunny ears.

And BTW, the star system wasn't created by Michael, it was created by Magic and Bird, or perhaps for Magic and Bird. They were the two stars credited with revitalizing the league. The two first name guys who became world famous before MJ even started. Again he likely took it to another level, or let's get this right -- Nike did. But MJ wasn't the first of any of that stuff. Just the best.

As an aside, baggy shorts are often credited to Webb and the Fab 5. Here's MJ as a rookie:

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Magic and Bird are the stars that revitalized the league, but the league wasn't obsessed with replacing them the way they were with Mike and those Lakers and Celtics teams were still about as loaded and deep as you got. Since this was all pre-mega-expansion that began in the late 80s the star system as we know it didn't really take off until the talent base on most rosters fell off. There was never an obsession with the next Bird or Magic the way their was with MJ. Now partially that is because Mike was their obvious successor, but he had just started winning championships at the time the search for the next Mike was on (Harold Miner anyone?).

Didn't the story go that MJ wore his shorts one or two sizes too large so that he could wear his lucky NC shorts underneath them?

 

[CruzDude]

If we talk about who changed or had a major influence in the game of basketball then we start with George Mikan who was the original "big man" in the NBA. He was the first dominant big man and pioneered the hook shot.

Then there was Bob Cousy who was the first to define what was a point guard running and setting up everyone on his team. He changed the face of the game and how it was played and has been emulated ever since by PGs.

Wilt changed everything as he was virtually unguardable in the beginning. His influence was the dunk shot and its indelible impact on basketball forever.

At nearly the same time along came Bill Russell who forced everyone to alter their shots when anywhere near the basket. The ultimate big man defender, his influence on how the game was played changed basketball in the 60's for everyone. And he was the first one every to guard Wilt successfully, many times.

Dr J opened up the game with his wide array of shots no one else could do at the time. He opened the game and the offense like no one else.

MJ was the best ever at the game but he did not redefine the game nor cause changes in the games or rules as did Mikan, Cousy and Wilt. MJ made his team mates better. He was the best at using all the skills and making a team better.

In looking farther I ran across a book "Origins of the Jump Shot" that lists "The eight men that shook the world of basketball". Although I hadn't heard of 7 of the 8, the article makes a good case for this thread.

http://www.johnchristgau.com/jumpshot/jumpshot.html

 

[bajaden]

I hate to admit that I've been around long enough to have seen Wilt, Oscar, Russell, Pettit, etc play in person. I remember when Oscar Robertson arrived on the scene. I had never seen anyone do the things he could do. He did things with the basketball that Jordan would do years later. And in between there was Dr. J and George Gervin. Anyone that had the privilige of seeing David Thompson play before he was injured would never forget it.

I don't know if Jordan is the best of all time or not. He was certainly special, and without a doubt, the most promoted, except for maybe Bird and Magic. However, anyone that thinks Wilt couldn't play today, and still be a great player is just plain nuts. Along with being a great basketball player, he was a world class hurdler and world class volley ball player. He was incredibly strong. He once broke another players wrist when that player tried to block his dunk. He could jump out of the building. And you don't become a world class hurdler by running slow.

And, it wasn't as if he didn't have competition when he played. Some of those that crossed his path during his career are. Wes Unseld, Nate Thurmond, Bill Russell, Bob Lanier, Sam Lacy, Dan Issel, Darrall Imhoff, Walt Bellamy, Zelmo Beaty, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and Dave Cowens. So please don't tell me he would intimated by the likes of Krstic, Bogut, Barnani, Hibbert, Marc Gasol, etc. In his last season at the age of 36, he averaged 18.6 rebounds a game. A little under his career average of 22.9.

In his time, I don't think anyone had a bigger impact on the game of basketball than he did. He simply dominated everyone he played against. He was one of a kind. As was Jordan, and Oscar. 20 years from now, everyone will be saying that Lebron was the greatest of all time. In truth, most of these guys were the greatest of their time. And thats all anyone can ask. Remember, newer isn't always better. But it always feels that way.

 

[dbfish]

I hate to admit that I've been around long enough to have seen Wilt, Oscar, Russell, Pettit, etc play in person. I remember when Oscar Robertson arrived on the scene. I had never seen anyone do the things he could do. He did things with the basketball that Jordan would do years later. And in between there was Dr. J and George Gervin. Anyone that had the privilige of seeing David Thompson play before he was injured would never forget it.

I don't know if Jordan is the best of all time or not. He was certainly special, and without a doubt, the most promoted, except for maybe Bird and Magic. However, anyone that thinks Wilt couldn't play today, and still be a great player is just plain nuts. Along with being a great basketball player, he was a world class hurdler and world class volley ball player. He was incredibly strong. He once broke another players wrist when that player tried to block his dunk. He could jump out of the building. And you don't become a world class hurdler by running slow.

And, it wasn't as if he didn't have competition when he played. Some of those that crossed his path during his career are. Wes Unseld, Nate Thurmond, Bill Russell, Bob Lanier, Sam Lacy, Dan Issel, Darrall Imhoff, Walt Bellamy, Zelmo Beaty, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and Dave Cowens. So please don't tell me he would intimated by the likes of Krstic, Bogut, Barnani, Hibbert, Marc Gasol, etc. In his last season at the age of 36, he averaged 18.6 rebounds a game. A little under his career average of 22.9.

In his time, I don't think anyone had a bigger impact on the game of basketball than he did. He simply dominated everyone he played against. He was one of a kind. As was Jordan, and Oscar. 20 years from now, everyone will be saying that Lebron was the greatest of all time. In truth, most of these guys were the greatest of their time. And thats all anyone can ask. Remember, newer isn't always better. But it always feels that way.

Well maybe not Imhoff so much, but I would really like to see him go up against the centers that the NBA has to offer now. Howard is the only center playing now that could match up with Wilt athletically but he certainly doesn't have the offensive game Wilt had.

 

[Bricklayer]

In a lot of ways its all timing. I can say that if MJ had been born 25 years earlier and come into the league in 1960 he would absolutley have had a ridiculously huge impact on the game. Now without the marketing infrastructure he wouoldn't have been world famous MJ, but his impact on the court would have been enormous.

Its really no different than any field. If you ask who the most influential mathematicians of all time were, the most important, you probably have to go back to the pioneers. Newton and his calculus, or Archimedes or Euclid or somebody. But if you ask who the greatest, as in smartest, most advanced, most sophisitcated mathematicians are/were, they are probably alive today, or at least the recent past. But as great as they are, their accomplishments, their inventions, their contributions, are piddling in comparison to the guys who created the whole framework. Now flip the births around, but a modern genius back in Euclid's time, and move Euclid to today, and it changes things. But as is it just gets harder and harder to have a huge impact, to be a revolutionary figure, the more mature a field of endeavor becomes.

 

[bajaden]

In a lot of ways its all timing. I can say that if MJ had been born 25 years earlier and come into the league in 1960 he would absolutley have had a ridiculously huge impact on the game. Now without the marketing infrastructure he wouoldn't have been world famous MJ, but his impact on the court would have been enormous.

Its really no different than any field. If you ask who the most influential mathematicians of all time were, the most important, you probably have to go back to the pioneers. Newton and his calculus, or Archimedes or Euclid or somebody. But if you ask who the greatest, as in smartest, most advanced, most sophisitcated mathematicians are/were, they are probably alive today, or at least the recent past. But as great as they are, their accomplishments, their inventions, their contributions, are piddling in comparison to the guys who created the whole framework. Now flip the births around, but a modern genius back in Euclid's time, and move Euclid to today, and it changes things. But as is it just gets harder and harder to have a huge impact, to be a revolutionary figure, the more mature a field of endeavor becomes.

I agree with you 100%. If someone came along that could do all the things that Jordan did, he would still obviously be a great player. But he wouldn't have the same impact as Jordan did because its all been done before. Doesn't make him less a player, its as you said, timing is everything.

 

[RaY Z]

As an aside, baggy shorts are often credited to Webb and the Fab 5. Here's MJ as a rookie:

Jordan did start the trend in the late 80's and early 1990's, when he's shorts started to get longer.

The Fab 5 just emphasised it by wearing shorts down to their shins.

 

[The Hammer]

Ok, so the basic premise of this debate started when a friend of mine said Wilt, Dr. J. those guys changed the game....I added Jordan was also a player that changed the game...

He said no, Jordan did not change the game. I had a huge problem with this. I have no problem with Wilt and Dr. J being guys who changed the game, but so did Jordan. I look at the torch being passed from Dr. J, to Jordan. But, Jordan did not shadow Dr. J's style. He defined his own style, and changed the way the game was played.

He inspired an entire generation of Basketball players. Players that wanted to mirror their game after his, he created a style, he left his footprint on the game. He re-defined above the rim to me.

What are your thoughts?? Again I have no problem with Wilt and Dr. J, I agree with that part. But, put any generational biases aside and give me your objective opinions about Jordan. I mean in my eyes he's easily top 5 to play of ALL TIME in the NBA. How can a person that is that great of a player not have changed the game?

Ok.....GO!

Jordan did change the game, but what he changed more was the business of basketball. What you think of as a "Basketball Player" today was created by Michael Jordan. You know, the endorsements, the celebrity, the focus on one's self, the agent, the handlers, the huge salary, the highlight plays so you can get more endorsements. That was ALL Jordan's influence. If you don't believe me, check out the first ever dunk contest on youtube that HAD Dr. J in it. Then think of that Jordan photo from a dunk contest with him flying through the air from the free throw stripe with his tongue out. Those contrasting images pretty much say it all.

 

[The Hammer]

Well Michael Jordan was definitely the first who change the fashion of NBA from

to

And Phil Jackson changed ties. Or at least he should have before that game.