Hypothetical: Suns v. Pistons... Who wins? (split)

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Leandro Barbosa, Kurt Thomas, Boris Diaw and THAT experience.

Diaw and Thomas will not be significant factors against the Spurs, and you're asking a LOT out of Barbosa, especially if Finley keeps playing the way he has; that leaves Popovich free to bring Ginobili off the bench, and I'd say that's a wash.

The biggest reason why the Suns aren't going to win the series is Shawn Marion. The Spurs are to Marion what the Warriors were to Nowitzki; Marion averages 12 points for his career against the Spurs in the playoffs, and 19 points in the playoffs against everyone else.

And, as much as I hate to say it, I refuse to bet against Robert F. Horry.

 

[Kstat]

Marion is a small forward. And is excellent size for SF. One could argue that Webber is the worst defensive forward in the league and you're talking about defensive problems on the inside. If you watched the Pistons enough, then you know that's all about help defense and the Suns are pretty good at that too.

1. Webber's a center, not a forward. And he hasn't been that bad playing that position defensively, so that point is invalid.

2. Marion against Rasheed has led to embarrassment so many times that D'Antoni doesn't let him defend Rasheed anymore, and goes to Diaw to defend him. Again, you speak as someone who has not watched Detroit play Phoenix recently.

3. Phoenix is indeed good at help defense, but alas the key word in that is HELP, and Phoenix has nobody on our team to help OFF of, which is why we kill them so often.

When phoenix single covers us, we post them up and abuse them inside.

When they double us, we find the open man, and beat them that way.

When they go zone (has that ever been a funny experiment for the Suns), we typically wind up with a layup off of them scrambling to keep up with the ball.

As I said before, all 5 of our starters can both score and pass. There's nothing Phoenix can do to stymie our attack, since they aren't physical enough ala Chicago or San Antonio to knock us off our rhythm.

 

[Superman]

This would be a very good series, because you have two teams that are both talented but play almost opposite styles of basketball. The reason I'd pick the Pistons over the Suns is because the Pistons have the ability to win games with their defense almost every night, even though they have a very efficient offense, and the Suns rely on their offense out of necessity.

Regarding the Pistons slowing the game down to a pace that they would be able to handle, I'll just quote myself from a few days ago:

Detroit is great at making teams take tough shots and keeping them off the offensive glass, and they play the passing lanes well enough to keep their opponents' assist/TO ratio to a minimum (1.4/1.0). All this contributes to their ability to slow the game down to a pace their comfortable with. That's how they were able to go on the road and force 22 Suns turnovers, holding them to just 83 points. Webber didn't have any trouble keeping up with the Suns in that one; had a nice, well-rounded game with 17 points and 9 rebounds in almost 40 minutes.

They don't have to have a "dominant" force inside, in the historical sense (see: Shaquille O'Neal, Patrick Ewing, Hakeem Olajuwan, etc.) The Bulls were able to do it without a dominant inside force. Of course, the Pistons don't have MJ, but they have a well-rounded team, and they have two players that can and will consistently score with their backs to the basket in Webber and McDyess. Those players will cause matchup problems all over the floor.

 

[sloter]

1. Webber's a center, not a forward. And he hasn't been that bad playing that position defensively, so that point is invalid.

2. Marion against Rasheed has led to embarrassment so many times that D'Antoni doesn't let him defend Rasheed anymore, and goes to Diaw to defend him. Again, you speak as someone who has not watched Detroit play Phoenix recently.

3. Phoenix is indeed good at help defense, but alas the key word in that is HELP, and Phoenix has nobody on our team to help OFF of, which is why we kill them so often.

When phoenix single covers us, we post them up and abuse them inside.

When they double us, we find the open man, and beat them that way.

When they go zone (has that ever been a funny experiment for the Suns), we typically wind up with a layup off of them scrambling to keep up with the ball.

As I said before, all 5 of our starters can both score and pass. There's nothing Phoenix can do to stymie our attack, since they aren't physical enough ala Chicago or San Antonio to knock us off our rhythm.

I don't know if you are intentionally ignoring what I said about Thomas - Stoudamire - Marion lineup. That will do just fine against almost any frontcourt in the league on the defensive end, at least.
Webber is a center in the PF body, just like Kurt Thomas.

Anyway, if these two teams meet it will come down to who can play their style of game more.

 

[jacobdrj]

Originally Posted by Mr. S£im Citrus
The new WC Champion, for sure.

I've felt since the playoffs began that the only team in the playoffs that could beat the Spurs were the Mavericks... I hope that I'm wrong, because I want to see Webber get that ring, but I certainly don't think anybody in the west has a chance against them.

Yep. I felt that if the Suns, Mavs, Jazz, Rockets, Lakers or Warriors had made it to the finals, the Bulls or Pistons would have their way with them. But the Mavs were and still are the only team I see beating the Spurs in a 7 game series... or even a 5 game series... and quite frankly, the door is wide open for them to win yet again. I hope Phoenix, the Rockets or the Jazz can prove me wrong... I want the East to win again

 

[Kingster]

Diaw is NOT better than McDyess. Marion might be better than Webber, but Marion is not going to be playing Webber; he's going to be playing Wallace... and Marion is NOT better than Wallace. And you know what? For all of that, it would be foolish to try and play Marion against Webber, because that actually DOES give Webber the advantage, by allowing Webber (who has demonstrated a surprising willingness to play in the paint for Detroit) the capitalize on the weakest part of Marion's game. Webber would kill Marion in the post, and if they switched defensive assignments, then Sheed would kill Marion in the post.

And, as I said, it's a moot point because Phoenix isn't going to beat San Antonio.

Marion against Webber? BAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! ROTFLMAO! Webber can't guard Kenny Thomas? How's he going to guard Marion?!! Webber will be a nonentity if Detroit plays Phoenix.

 

[nbrans]

Phoenix would blow Detroit off the floor. I don't even think it would be close. Detroit has no one who can keep up with Nash and Barbosa, no one to control the middle, and no one who can keep Marion and Stoudemire from getting those back-breaking offensive rebounds. Detroit had better hope San Antonio beats Phoenix, because that's their only hope.

 

[Kstat]

I think it's hilarious that people are blissfully ignoring the fact that Detroit has proven time and time again that the Suns can't guard them...

There's only one guy on Phoenix we can't guard. There are 4 guys on the Pistons that Phoenix can't guard.

In the end, if they can't stop us, they can't run on us. And Phoenix has yet to prove they can even play adequate defense against out halfcourt sets.

Unless Amare's going to score 50 in the halfcourt, Phoenix isn't going to beat us at our game, and we simply don't allow them to get into their game.

And Billups plays Nash better than any PG in the NBA. Feel free to ask the Suns about that.

To anyone that thinks Phoenix would run right over us, I think D'Antoni would pay a lot of money to find out how....

Oh yes, that's right. Starting Kurt Thomas at center is the key to running us off the floor. Best line of the thread.

Not only would it slow down a team that wasn't running much on us to begin with, but it's already been TRIED, and all it does is allow our bigs to double Amare every time he touches the ball.

On the other end, Amare winds up either giving sheed wide open threes, or leaving the lane to cover him and allowing Billups the freedom to post up Nash with impunity.

D'Antoni has already thrown every defensive wrinkle he has at us. We have an offensive counter for everything.

 

[nbrans]

I think it's hilarious that people are blissfully ignoring the fact that Detroit has proven time and time again that the Suns can't guard them...

There's only one guy on Phoenix we can't guard. There are 4 guys on the Pistons that Phoenix can't guard.

In the end, if they can't stop us, they can't run on us. And Phoenix has yet to prove they can even play adequate defense against out halfcourt sets.

Unless Amare's going to score 50 in the halfcourt, Phoenix isn't going to beat us at our game, and we simply don't allow them to get into their game.

And Billups plays Nash better than any PG in the NBA. Feel free to ask the Suns about that.

To anyone that thinks Phoenix would run right over us, I think D'Antoni would pay a lot of money to find out how....

Oh yes, that's right. Starting Kurt Thomas at center is the key to running us off the floor. Best line of the thread.

Not only would it slow down a team that wasn't running much on us to begin with, but it's already been TRIED, and all it does is allow our bigs to double Amare every time he touches the ball.

On the other end, Amare winds up either giving sheed wide open threes, or leaving the lane to cover him and allowing Billups the freedom to post up Nash with impunity.

D'Antoni has already thrown every defensive wrinkle he has at us. We have an offensive counter for everything.

I really don't think the regular season has a whole lot of bearing on the playoffs (except maybe Golden State/Dallas, but that's another story). And anyway, they split their two matchups this season, so where is this dominance you speak of?

Detroit's problem is that there's no one controlling the middle. Nash and Barbosa can slice and dice you guys to smithereens. If your criteria for why Detroit is going to win is based on Detroit's offense, you have to know that you're done for. You're not going to outscore Phoenix, you just don't have that kind of firepower. The only way Detroit is going to win is with defense, and I don't think Detroit's defense is good enough.

 

[Kstat]

Nash and Barbosa can slice and dice you guys to smithereens.

Nash gets beaten up so often in the post by Billups that he almost always gets worn out on offense.

Nash is a great player, but he simply doesn't match up with us. No matter who he guards, he is going to get exploited time and time again in the post, and it takes away from his offensive game, since Billups defends him well to begin with.

If your criteria for why Detroit is going to win is based on Detroit's offense, you have to know that you're done for. You're not going to outscore Phoenix, you just don't have that kind of firepower. The only way Detroit is going to win is with defense, and I don't think Detroit's defense is good enough.

Really? We have arguably the most efficient halfcourt offense in the NBA. Every starter on our team can be used as a go-to guy in any situation. We're a nightmare to defend because we can counter any strategy.

Our defense stems from our ability to control the ball and hit shots. One guy crashes the glass, and the other 4 get back on defense to stop any transition shots. We use tis startegy against the Suns every year, and every year it slows them down.

We're the best team in the NBA at not turning the ball over, and we're the best team in the NBA at getting a good first shot. Both of those things kill Phoenix's ability to run.

IN a halfcourt game, we're the better team. I don't even think that's much of a debate. If Phoenix can't run on us, they can't beat us, and they can't run on us if they're playing defense for 20 seconds per possession and every possession ends with them taking the ball out from under their basket.

Newsflash: this isn't NBA live. We don't accommodate Phoenix by playing their style of run-and-gun, and they suck at forcing us to play at their pace.

 

[nbrans]

I'm sorry, you're just not going to win with offense. Phoenix doesn't need to run to be effective, they can score just as well in the half-court. Detroit has no answer for Barbosa (not to be underestimated -- look what he did to the Lakers), and no answer for Stoudemire. The Billups/Nash matchup may be key, as you say, but I'll still take Nash.

I don't have a dog in the fight on this one, I don't really care who wins either way. But to my eye, Detroit is a good team but Phoenix is playing on a different level.

 

[Kstat]

I'm sorry, you're just not going to win with offense. Phoenix doesn't need to run to be effective, they can score just as well in the half-court. Detroit has no answer for Barbosa (not to be underestimated -- look what he did to the Lakers), and no answer for Stoudemire. The Billups/Nash matchup may be key, as you say, but I'll still take Nash.

I don't have a dog in the fight on this one, I don't really care who wins either way. But to my eye, Detroit is a good team but Phoenix is playing on a different level.

You might not be a Phoenix fan, but I an guarantee that you haven't seen Detroit play nearly as much as Phoenix, because you're saying things about the Pistons that simply aren't true.

Here's a breakdown of the Suns: Their halfcourt offense hinges on them getting into a shooting rhythm by getting east fast break points.

When you take away those fast break points, Phoenix struggles to score over a full 48. Their shooters are not used to grounding out a game, and eventually they go ice cold and crumble, because they don't have the defense to keep up.


Nobody takes into account that while Detroit won't win a dunkfest with phoenix, Phoenix has just as little chance of winning a grind-it-out game with us. Their shooters are surprisingly average when they can't get any free layups, and Nash is the only guy on phoenix that moves the ball. Our guys are used to that style. Phoenix isn't.

LA can't slow down Phoenix. They never could, because Phoenix can focus on shutting down 1 or 2 guys, because the rest of the Lakers can't beat them. They can't do the same to us, because any of our 5 starters can beat them if left wide open all game. The Suns haven't found a way to make us miss shots. It's really that simple.

No, we don't have an answer for Amare, but Sheed and Webber do a great job of making him work for his points and getting him in foul trouble at the other end. Amare's another guy that needs his transition points to stay in a groove.

Sure Phoenx is a lot faster than us. But everyone just assumes that we would play along and allow them to run on us, and not one person has come up with a good reason why that's going to change all of a sudden, after years of us grinding them into the floor.

 

[nbrans]

You might not be a Phoenix fan, but I an guarantee that you haven't seen Detroit play nearly as much as Phoenix, because you're saying things about the Pistons that simply aren't true.

Here's a breakdown of the Suns: Their halfcourt offense hinges on them getting into a shooting rhythm by getting east fast break points.

When you take away those fast break points, Phoenix struggles to score over a full 48. Their shooters are not used to grounding out a game, and eventually they go ice cold and crumble, because they don't have the defense to keep up.


Nobody takes into account that while Detroit won't win a dunkfest with phoenix, Phoenix has just as little chance of winning a grind-it-out game with us. Their shooters are surprisingly average when they can't get any free layups, and Nash is the only guy on phoenix that moves the ball. Our guys are used to that style. Phoenix isn't.

LA can't slow down Phoenix. They never could, because Phoenix can focus on shutting down 1 or 2 guys, because the rest of the Lakers can't beat them. They can't do the same to us, because any of our 5 starters can beat them if left wide open all game. The Suns haven't found a way to make us miss shots. It's really that simple.

No, we don't have an answer for Amare, but Sheed and Webber do a great job of making him work for his points and getting him in foul trouble at the other end. Amare's another guy that needs his transition points to stay in a groove.

Sure Phoenx is a lot faster than us. But everyone just assumes that we would play along and allow them to run on us, and not one person has come up with a good reason why that's going to change all of a sudden, after years of us grinding them into the floor.

The Suns have lots of ways to score in half court, especially on the deadly Nash/Amare pick and roll, which Detroit is going to have an exceedingly hard time with. Either that or they can isolate Barbosa at the top of the key, leave their shooters on the perimeter and let him go to town. Or Nash penetrates. They have a reputation as a fast break team because they do get a lot of points that way, but it's not like their half-court offense is their Achilles heel. The Lakers took away a lot of their fast-breaking and it didn't really matter. That's the difference between last year and this year. Without Amare they didn't really have a way to get easy points in a half-court set. Now they can run that pick and roll or work off of penetration more with Barbosa, and Detroit is going to have a really hard time stopping that.

No doubt Detroit poses some matchup problems for Phoenix, I just don't believe Detroit can win if they're hoping their offense is going to outscore Phoenix's. Their only hope is doing what you say -- grind it out, try and slow down the Suns, hope the Suns' shooters go cold, and hope Amare doesn't go off.

But defensively, the Suns will stick Marion on Sheed and Amare on Webber and neutralize Sheed's oustside shooting, stick Bell on Rip and Diaw/Jones on Prince. I don't like those matchups for Detroit. It's going to come down to Billups destroying Nash, and I don't think that's enough.

I just don't think Detroit has the firepower. Phoenix has more answers for Detroit than Detroit does for Phoenix. But hey -- I could be way wrong on this one.

 

[Kstat]

I'm going to repeat myself for an 8th and final time.

Phoenix is not as efficient in their halfcourt offense when they can't get defensive stops. Their players simply don't have enough room to slash, and their shooters aren't as good taking spot-up threes for 48 minutes without any easy open shots thrown in.

Phoenix's halfcourt offense looks good because the Suns take rhythm shots in the flow of their offense. Take that shooting rhythm away, and those same shots become bricks.

I don't even need the last 3 years vs the Suns to show that, just go back to our last game against the Suns in their own building.

We forced the Suns to take the ball out from under their own basket, and nobody except Amare was scoring, and Amare was turning it over as often as he scored, because he was forced to create for himself instead of having Nahs spoon-feed him.

Barbosa is another guy that simply isn't very good as a 3-point specialist, and that's what he's reduced to when the Suns play us. He also has no sense of pace, leading to bad quick shots after the suns spend 24 seconds of defense, leading them to be forced to play 20 more seconds of defense soon after.

Barbosa's a fast guy, but when he isn't in a shooting rhythm, just like every other suns player, you can play off him and watch him clank jumpers for 48 minutes. The guy has no idea when not to shoot, and he's incapable of setting anybody else up. The guy only looks to score.

 

[nbrans]

I mean, there's really no sense in arguing with a Detroit fan. I do think you're putting way too much stock in a few regular season victories and of course seeing things through red and blue colored glasses, which, hey, I can't blame you, I'd be doing the same thing with the Kings.

If I were you though, I'd be hoping for a San Antonio victory over Phoenix, because that's a much, much better matchup for Detroit.

 

[Kstat]

The thing is, I'm rooting for the Suns all the way. I'd much rather face them than the Spurs, Rockets, Warriors or Jazz.

Any Pistons fan would tell you the exact same thing. We all badly want Phoenix to make the finals, should we get there ourselves.

 

[sloter]

Kstat reminds me of the arrogant and delusional Sixers announcers back around 2001-2002 who were always surprised when the Kings destroyed the Sixers and would never admit that the Kings were simply a much better team.
Detroit barely beat Cleveland in the playoffs last year and that was WITH Ben Wallace and you think that they can play against the Suns...? I guess that playing in Eastern Conference will do miracles for your confidence.

 

[Kstat]

That, and winning a championship...

other than that, our multiple finals appearances and our collection of all-stars, we have plenty in common with the 2002 Sixers.... excellent comparison.

If you thought last year's Pistons team was anywhere near as ready for the playoffs as this year's version, you're sorely mistaken. The level of confidence isn't even close.

Chicago I fear. They have a great chance to upset us.

Cleveland? That's an ECF cakewalk if I ever saw one. We wouldn't make the same mistakes we made against them in 2006.

I have confidence in my team because I know what my team is capable of. I don't expect you to believe me, and quite frankly I don't care. I'm more than happy letting the Pistons do the talking for me.

Besides, sloter is the one guy I'm not inclined to take seriously. His hate of the Pistons clearly stems from his hate for all things Webber.

 

[nbrans]

That, and winning a championship...

other than that, our multiple finals appearances and our collection of all-stars, we have plenty in common with the 2002 Sixers.... excellent comparison.

If you thought last year's Pistons team was anywhere near as ready for the playoffs as this year's version, you're sorely mistaken. The level of confidence isn't even close.
Chicago I fear. They have a great chance to upset us.

Cleveland? That's an ECF cakewalk if I ever saw one. We wouldn't make the same mistakes we made against them in 2006.

I have confidence in my team because I know what my team is capable of. I don't expect you to believe me, and quite frankly I don't care. I'm more than happy letting the Pistons do the talking for me.

Hmmm....

Confidence... Ben Wallace.... Confidence.... Ben Wallace...

I'd take Ben Wallace.

 

[Kstat]

I'll take Chris Webber.

I'm perfectly happy with him as our starting center. He makes everyone around him better. He's proven that since he signed here.

Ben Wallace quit on us in the summer of 2006. We would have had a better chance against Miami if Ben wasn't tanking his way through the playoffs. Dude was an empty uniform.

Much as I love Ben, I'm still hurt that he didn't feel he had to give his team his best effort on his way out the door.

 

[Superman]

I really don't think the regular season has a whole lot of bearing on the playoffs (except maybe Golden State/Dallas, but that's another story). And anyway, they split their two matchups this season, so where is this dominance you speak of?

What else is there to compare? They've never played each other in the postseason before. We might as well not even think about these two teams in the playoffs, because there's no way to compare them, right?

Phoenix won before the Webber signing, which isn't really indicative of the type of team the Pistons have become since then. Night and day difference in terms of efficiency on the offensive end. And that's why the Pistons blew the Suns down later in the season.

Detroit's problem is that there's no one controlling the middle. Nash and Barbosa can slice and dice you guys to smithereens. If your criteria for why Detroit is going to win is based on Detroit's offense, you have to know that you're done for. You're not going to outscore Phoenix, you just don't have that kind of firepower. The only way Detroit is going to win is with defense, and I don't think Detroit's defense is good enough.

The reason why Detroit's offense is so important is because if they take good shots and do a good job on the offensive glass, they will be successful in slowing the game down enough to keep Phoenix from running every single possession. It's not about outscoring them. Efficiency is the key, not point total. Efficiency on offense will lead to better defense.

As far as Nash and Barbosa go, the Pistons aren't exactly as undisciplined as the Lakers are on the defensive end. They've shown the ability in previous meetings rotate defensively and contest shots at the rim. As long as they can set their defense up, they'll be okay. And as long as they stay efficient on the offensive end, they'll be able to set their defense up.

 

[nbrans]

I'll take Chris Webber.

I'm perfectly happy with him as our starting center. He makes everyone around him better. He's proven that since he signed here.

Ben Wallace quit on us in the summer of 2006. We would have had a better chance against Miami if Ben wasn't tanking his way through the playoffs. Dude was an empty uniform.

Much as I love Ben, I'm still hurt that he didn't feel he had to give his team his best effort on his way out the door.

See, this is what I'm saying about the Phoenix/Detroit thing. Chris Webber unquestionably makes the team better offensively, and he's fine defensively, but he's going to turn into a serious liability defensively against Phoenix and Marion/Amare. Ben Wallace would have helped neutralized Amare and could have turned the tide defensively, but now there's no real hope of containing Phoenix's offense. And in an offense/offense matchup Phoenix is going to win every time.

I really can't believe Detroit thinks they can beat Phoenix. You're going based on reputation and a few regular season games, and not on the here and now.

 

[Kstat]

Webber wasn't a liability against Phoenx when we played them last. He was smart enough to funnel Amare to areas of the floor where he would have help coming.

Webber is a very smart player. Put him in a smart defensive scheme, and it's going to be hard to take advantage of his defense to a point that it affects an entire game. If you understand basketball, you'd understand that it is a TEAM GAME. Webber plays the team game as well as any big man in the league.

I really can't believe Detroit thinks they can beat Phoenix. You're going based on reputation and a few regular season games, and not on the here and now.

...here and now? Has Phoenix suddenly elevated their game to a point they weren't at when we smashed them in their own building 6 weeks ago?

..or is Phoenix's awe-inspiring 5 game defeat of the mighty Lakers an indication that they're somehow the 96 Bulls, as opposed to Detroit's apparently unimpressive 4-game sweep of Orlando?

 

[nbrans]

What else is there to compare? They've never played each other in the postseason before. We might as well not even think about these two teams in the playoffs, because there's no way to compare them, right?

Phoenix won before the Webber signing, which isn't really indicative of the type of team the Pistons have become since then. Night and day difference in terms of efficiency on the offensive end. And that's why the Pistons blew the Suns down later in the season.

The reason why Detroit's offense is so important is because if they take good shots and do a good job on the offensive glass, they will be successful in slowing the game down enough to keep Phoenix from running every single possession. It's not about outscoring them. Efficiency is the key, not point total. Efficiency on offense will lead to better defense.

As far as Nash and Barbosa go, the Pistons aren't exactly as undisciplined as the Lakers are on the defensive end. They've shown the ability in previous meetings rotate defensively and contest shots at the rim. As long as they can set their defense up, they'll be okay. And as long as they stay efficient on the offensive end, they'll be able to set their defense up.

The way to compare is eyeballs to eyeballs and look at the matchup. One game does not make a trend, Detroit caught Phoenix on an off-night.

Detroit's offense is fine, but they're just not beating Phoenix's offense. Detroit has a good offense, Phoenix has a great offense.

And no offense, but I really don't think Detroit/Webber fans are seeing this one clearly.

 

[Kstat]

One game does not make a trend, Detroit caught Phoenix on an off-night.

...and what about the last two seasons before this one? They struggled with us in 2005 and 2006 too...

..or are we just the luckiest team in NBA hsitory to catch phoenix on off-nights every single season?

Detroit's offense is fine, but they're just not beating Phoenix's offense. Detroit has a good offense, Phoenix has a great offense.

And no offense, but I really don't think Detroit/Webber fans are seeing this one clearly.

...and if you think Phoenix has a better halfcourt game than the Pistons, you're either refusing to see reality or you've been playing too much NBA Jam.

If Phoenix can't run, they can't beat us. They haven't beaten us at our game in THREE YEARS. Overlooking 3 years of hard evidence in favor of a fantasy matchup you haven't seen yet is just hiding your head in the sand.

You can't watch the Suns play the Lakers and compare the Lakers to the Pistons. It's amazingly silly.

 

[nbrans]

3 years of hard evidence only with different rosters...... yeah, ok, great.

 

[Kstat]

...as opposed to your proof, which isn't even proof. It's an opinion based off of never having seen Detroit and Phoenix play each other before.

It seems to stem down to, "Phoenix can run faster and jump higher, so Phoenix would beat them easily in a playoff series."

Nevermind Detroit is smarter, more experienced, passes better, plays much better defense, takes better shots and rebounds better. Phoenix would beat us in a slam dunk contest, so we're toast.

 

[Superman]

The way to compare is eyeballs to eyeballs and look at the matchup. One game does not make a trend, Detroit caught Phoenix on an off-night.

Detroit's offense is fine, but they're just not beating Phoenix's offense. Detroit has a good offense, Phoenix has a great offense.

And no offense, but I really don't think Detroit/Webber fans are seeing this one clearly.

I'm not offended at all. I just don't think you're looking at anything but Phoenix's reputation for being able to win games by scoring 120 a night. That's fine when you're playing the Lakers, but the Pistons have a reputation for being able to slow high-paced, offensive minded teams down and forcing them to play a half-court game.

And you're right, the trend wasn't set with just one game. That wouldn't be fair to the Suns at all. Looking at matchups is fine, but I don't think you can say "Hey, these are the matchups, and Phoenix comes out on top because no one can guard these players." You have to take into account the style of basketball Detroit plays, and why it's been so successful for them.

Their offense isn't so dangerous and potent that it's going to allow them to outscore Phoenix at will. But it is efficient enough that it will slow the Suns down keep them playing at a pace they haven't shown themselves to be comfortable with. And when the Suns have to slow down, the shooters - besides Nash - lose rythym, the team doesn't rebound as well as a unit, they start turning the ball over, and they fall apart defensively.

And, returning to matchups for a moment, the Suns can't matchup with Detroit's frontcourt. If they play Marion on Rasheed, he'd have no problem going to the block and using his 4 inch height advantage to shoot his turn-around jumper. We know what would happen if Marion were to guard Webber; even if they double-team him, he's as good as anyone at finding the open man, and you don't want anyone on the Pistons shooting open jumpers. And if Amare is guarding Rasheed, either he'll leave one of the best shooting big men in the game open on the perimeter, or he'll guard him on the perimeter and leave the paint open for Billups to work on Nash or for Webber to run the offense and find cutters at the rim.

And who's gonna guard Tayshaun?

I don't think the matchups favor Phoenix as much as you do. And even if they did, I don't think Phoenix can maximize any advantages they do have enough to keep the Pistons from playing effective defense for the better part of a series.

 

[nbrans]

...as opposed to your proof, which isn't even proof. It's an opinion based off of never having seen Detroit and Phoenix play each other before.

Yeah, that and this:

Offensive efficiency:
Phoenix 111.4
Detroit 106.2

 

[Kstat]

...and the numbers with Webber starting?