How Athletic is Tyreke... Check it out.

I already said Reke = Roy's production. Nowhere did I say that Tyreke isn't explosive laterally.

He just lacks that extra "he had jets in his shoes!" jump. I'm not saying he cannot get around it. I'm just saying that all BALL DOMINATING PASS SECOND GUARD SUPERSTARS have those jets.

Your decision that this is a key determining factor is completely arbitrary. Certain players may have the ability to jump higher than Tyreke, but for most of these guys you're naming, how often is it really determining the outcome of a play on the court? I'm extremely skeptical that it's often enough to stick a glass ceiling between Tyreke and them.
 
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He's 6'4... 6'5 with shoes. We should not be so quick in eating up the NBA propaganda.
I think Tyreke is more then athletic enough to do what he needs to do.

People here are focusing on what Dwight Did... Dwight blocks everyone including Wade Kobe and Lebron. The only one big and strong enough to dunk on that kid is Lebron... but he's a freak of nature that comes along only....um once every 25 years or so.
 
Well AM has had an obvious bias against Tyreke. However, he does touch on the point i made in the huge list post a few back; ball dominating guards who are not pass first are ususally very explosive. The only one not is Brandon Roy, which imo limits him from a perennial all star/star to superstar.

Now, Tyreke has already matched Roy production, so nowhere am I saying that he is not a star, or won't be a star. I am jsut saying that the guards who are legitimate tier 1 guard superstars in today's game are either pass 1st pgs or athletic scorers. Maybe Evans will change that, maybe he won't. I'm just making an observation.

exactly... if he had a super sweet jumpshot to fall back on i could understand but he doesnt. those elite level players at his height either throw down moster dunks or are pure shooters... evans has the size and ball handling but lacks the jump shot or freakish athleticism... we all know that he'll never be an elite shooter so his lack of hops becomes an issue.

if brandon roy had wades athleticism he'd be a superstar and not just a star. joe johnson is like a hybrid, he has just enough athleticism and is a good shooter.
 
This argument is rediculous, Tyreke is plenty explosive enough to dunk. He doesn't dunk much because of the way he drives to the hoop. His "special" level of athletecism comes from his balance and body control combined with his speed and length (I don't think anyone in the NBA has his level of balance and body control). If you look at him when he slices through the lane he's able to throw 2-3 sideways fakes that generally leave defenders completely off balance then he still has the body control to read how the defenders are off balance and exploit that space to score.

Sure he doesn't explode up over guys, but if he did that he would eliminate the option of passing after his move. The way he attacks the rim can actually create more havok than a guy who simply flys straight at the rim trying to throw it down and get on the highlight reels (not that Harold Minor and Cedrik Ceballos didn't become some of the greats of all time). His balance and lateral quickness can throw his own man off balance and constantly puts the weakside defender on his heels because the guy doesn't have the balance Tyreke does (and really can't be sure of the direction Tyreke is going till the last moment). This means Tyreke creates a great chance to score while still leaving himself the option to drop the ball off. It also makes it a lot harder on team defenses and as Tyreke learns more about NBA team defense it's going to make him an unbeleivable distributer.

I'm also really starting to wonder if some of you guys even watch Tyreke play. He's shown piles and piles of court vision so far this season and he's shown great passing skills as well. Just because a guy is ball dominant doesn't mean he doesn't have great vision. It just means he thinks he's the best scorer on the court. The amount that Tyreke drives and dishes is crazy and a lot of time he gets the ball out to a three point shooter from between 3 guys under the hoop. If you want to criticize his decision making when he penetrates that's probly fair but to say he doesn't have great vision is ignorant because I've seen him make some fantastic passes this year, he just doesn't play like a pass first point guard.
 
I'm also really starting to wonder if some of you guys even watch Tyreke play. He's shown piles and piles of court vision so far this season and he's shown great passing skills as well. Just because a guy is ball dominant doesn't mean he doesn't have great vision. It just means he thinks he's the best scorer on the court. The amount that Tyreke drives and dishes is crazy and a lot of time he gets the ball out to a three point shooter from between 3 guys under the hoop. If you want to criticize his decision making when he penetrates that's probly fair but to say he doesn't have great vision is ignorant because I've seen him make some fantastic passes this year, he just doesn't play like a pass first point guard.

Tyreke Evans is a very good passer. He's averaging a lot of turnovers, but very few of them are from bad passes. In fact, by completed assists/bad pass ratio, he's the best on the team, by quite a bit (5.3 completed assists for every passing turnover, about the same as Deron Williams and a little better than Brandon Roy). Most of Tyreke's TO's come from ball handling errors, which I expect he will correct as he gets more experience (and he's shown significant improvement there).
 
It's interesting about the "lazy" comment. I can understand that comment. He does conserve his energy. The absolutely AMAZING thing about him is his defense with two to three minutes to go at the end of games. I've never, and I mean never ever ever seen a rookie guard make the defensive plays he's made at the end of games. He turns it up bigtime and makes blocks or steals. It's uncanny. I just want to know if he can get his stamina up a little more to turn it up like that for many minutes at a time.

If anybody can remember a rookie NBA guard making that many defensive plays at the end of games, let me know. Did Payton do it? Jordan? I don't know because I didn't watch them that carefully as rookies, but I find it hard to believe there's ever been a rookie guard who's made MORE big defensive plays than he has.
 
He doesn't dunk so he can't jump. Because he can't jump he's not athletic. BS logic.

I have no clue how you guys can measure Evans jumping capabilities or athleticism. Probably on television comparing Evans game versus highlights from other players?:confused:
 
if he played anything remotely like magic johnson we wouldnt be having this conversation. and all of the players that you mentioned are infinitely better at playing pg than evans will ever be. if evans ran the point like nash but was 6'6 no one would care if he could dunk. but he cant, he doesnt have the court vision or the passing skills to do half of the things that those players that you listed could do. hell, if beno or sergio were 6'6 they would be better than tyreke :eek:. yeah i said it. it sounds stupid but its true.... :cool:

at the end of the day tyreke will be limited a bit by his lack of athleticism. not by much, but it will keep him from being in that elite group of players that only have or need one name. kobe, lebron, wade... i know people who say, wtf is a tyreke? when i talk about evans... brandon roy is rolling over in his grave right now.:D

You sound stupid, and it's false. At the end of the game, the team that gets the most open looks wins the majority of the time. And Evans gets open looks. Screw dunking, all that is is a highlight. For you people to place so much emphasis on whether or not he can dunk and/or does so on defenders shows your lack of knowledge of basketball and WINNING. As long as Evans handle can get him and his teammates high percentage looks, YOUR POINT IS MOOT. Dunking is for players who NEED it as part of their game to succeed. Evans doesn't. He CAN dunk, but he doesn't need to. And at the end of the day, DWade is injury prone because of his willingness to dunk in traffic and sacrifice his body for 2 points. The higher you jump, the harder you fall. Think about it.
 
He looks athletic enough to me. I don't see him dunking from the FT line, but I don't see the dunkers making the dribble drives he does, so I'm not really sure what all the fuss is about.

Also not sure why he needs to become an elite jump shooter. Lebron, Kobe, and Jordan weren't elite shooters and they're doing OK.

Finally, if this guy's ceiling is Roy or J. Johnson(it isn't), we should consider ourselves lucky. Those are very good wings in this league.
 
I think the most important thing for building a winner is finding a player that's a bargain with a max contract. I think we've done that. With that out of the way, you have an advantage over 85% of the other teams and it's much easier to build a championship contender.

Also, when he kicked Beno in the head on a routine play, I stopped worrying about his hops.
 
Well AM has had an obvious bias against Tyreke. However, he does touch on the point i made in the huge list post a few back; ball dominating guards who are not pass first are ususally very explosive. The only one not is Brandon Roy, which imo limits him from a perennial all star/star to superstar.

Now, Tyreke has already matched Roy production, so nowhere am I saying that he is not a star, or won't be a star. I am jsut saying that the guards who are legitimate tier 1 guard superstars in today's game are either pass 1st pgs or athletic scorers. Maybe Evans will change that, maybe he won't. I'm just making an observation.


I would like to point out that Roy was considered the 6th best athlete in his draft and he has a 40" vertical leap. I'm don't know about the explosive thing, unless your shooting him out of a cannon.
 
It seems as though every year we have this conversation about who is and who isn't athletic, and how important athleticism is in deterimining the ceiling of a player. First off, Evans is a very good athlete. He was considered the 6th best athlete in his draft class. His end to end court speed was among the best in his group as was his lateral movement speed. Johnny Flynn is usually regarded as pretty good athlete, but Tyreke had better end to end court speed than Flynn. Flynn has a higher vertical than Evans, but at his height he needs it. Tyreke has a 34 inch vertical and a max vertical of 11'6". Now the last time I checked the basket is 10' off the ground, so I think he's capable of easily dunking the ball.

I heard this same stupid argument about Larry Bird and he's in the HOF. As a matter of fact the HOF is littered with players that wern't considered great athlete's. So for every one you can site as a great athlete to prove your point, I can find one to disprove your point. And the point is that it doesn't matter a tinkers damm how high you can jump or how fast you can run, if your not skilled your going to be a bust or an average player at best. The only exceptions are guys that are 7 foot, strong as an ox, able to jumps small buildings and able to run like a deer. These guys can get by with a minimum of skill, simply because there's no one that can match up against them. Dwight Howard springs to mind. Shaq when he came into the league was another. But they are far and few between.

If Evans doesn't become a superstar, it won't have anything to do with his jumping ability. It will be because he's unable to add other skills to those he already has. I just love it when someone says, we all know he'll never be a good shooter. No!! We all don't know that, and neither does the unnamed poster that made that statement. I won't waste my time naming all the great players that came into this league that couldn't shoot the basketball. Evans is a poor shooter because he never had to shoot the ball. He was always able to score with ease by going to the basket. Now he'll have to learn. His freethrow shooting has already shown improvement. Please God, spare me these people that look at a 20 year old kid and then try to tell the world what his limitations are. Thank God that players like Tyreke don't listen to those people.
 
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It seems as though every year we have this conversation about who is and who isn't athletic, and how important athleticism is in deterimining the ceiling of a player. First off, Evans is a very good athlete. He was considered the 6th best athlete in his draft class. His end to end court speed was among the best in his group as was his lateral movement speed. Johnny Flynn is usually regarded as pretty good athlete, but Tyreke had better end to end court speed than Flynn. Flynn has a higher vertical than Evans, but at his height he needs it. Tyreke has a 34 inch vertical and a max vertical of 11'6". Now the last time I checked the basket is 10' off the ground, so I think he's capable of easily dunking the ball.

I heard this same stupid argument about Larry Bird and he's in the HOF. As a matter of fact the HOF is littered with players that wern't considered great athlete's. So for every one you can site as a great athlete to prove your point, I can find one to disprove your point. And the point is that it doesn't matter a tinkers damm how high you can jump or how fast you can run, if your not skilled your going to be a bust or an average player at best. The only exceptions are guys that are 7 foot, strong as an ox, able to jumps small buildings and able to run like a deer. These guys can get by with a minimum of skill, simply because there's no one that can match up against them. Dwight Howard springs to mind. Shaq when he came into the league was another. But they are far and few between.

If Evans doesn't become a superstar, it won't have anything to do with his jumping ability. It will be because he's unable to add other skills to those he already has. I just love it when someone says, we all know he'll never be a good shooter. No!! We all don't know that, and neither does the unnamed poster that made that statement. I won't waste my time naming all the great players that came into this league that couldn't shoot the basketball. Evans is a poor shooter because he never had to shoot the ball. He was always able to score with ease by going to the basket. Now he'll have to learn. His freethrow shooting has already shown improvement. Please God, spare me these people that look at a 20 year old kid and then try to tell the world what his limitations are. Thank God that players like Tyreke don't listen to those people.
You're logic is extremely refreshing. The whole premise of this thread was giving me a migraine, and I decided to bow out a while ago. Obviously, how high Tyreke can jump has little effect on the player he will become, and the player he will be remembered as. Sometimes I wonder if some of the so called fans on here actually watch basketball and understand the game, or if the just watch the sports center top 10 and base their judgements on very limited highlight reels.

Sure if Tyreke threw down on Dwight Howard, I would jump off my couch and watch the replay 4 or 5 times. But 2 points is 2 points, and that dunk wouldn't mean anymore than a reverse layup around Dwight while using the rim for protection. I'm really struggling to figure out why some here think because Tyreke has a 36" vertical, and not a 42" vertical, it will put a ceiling on how great he can become. I wish I had a crystal ball to look into to tell me the future, like a few here apparently have. I can't get over the arrogance and ignorance it takes to decide how good Tyreke can become, and what his limits will be, after playing a grand total of 34 games in the nba.

And for everyone who is pissed that Tyreke isn't throwing down nasty dunks in traffic like a younger Kobe or a younger Wade, I would much rather have the more mature version of both. Yes they were exciting as youngsters, but neither became great until they mastered other parts of the game through hard work. Neither relies on athleticism at this point. Hell, Kobe can kill half the teams in the league playing on one leg.
 
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It seems as though every year we have this conversation about who is and who isn't athletic, and how important athleticism is in deterimining the ceiling of a player. First off, Evans is a very good athlete. He was considered the 6th best athlete in his draft class. His end to end court speed was among the best in his group as was his lateral movement speed. Johnny Flynn is usually regarded as pretty good athlete, but Tyreke had better end to end court speed than Flynn. Flynn has a higher vertical than Evans, but at his height he needs it. Tyreke has a 34 inch vertical and a max vertical of 11'6". Now the last time I checked the basket is 10' off the ground, so I think he's capable of easily dunking the ball.

I heard this same stupid argument about Larry Bird and he's in the HOF. As a matter of fact the HOF is littered with players that wern't considered great athlete's. So for every one you can site as a great athlete to prove your point, I can find one to disprove your point. And the point is that it doesn't matter a tinkers damm how high you can jump or how fast you can run, if your not skilled your going to be a bust or an average player at best. The only exceptions are guys that are 7 foot, strong as an ox, able to jumps small buildings and able to run like a deer. These guys can get by with a minimum of skill, simply because there's no one that can match up against them. Dwight Howard springs to mind. Shaq when he came into the league was another. But they are far and few between.

If Evans doesn't become a superstar, it won't have anything to do with his jumping ability. It will be because he's unable to add other skills to those he already has. I just love it when someone says, we all know he'll never be a good shooter. No!! We all don't know that, and neither does the unnamed poster that made that statement. I won't waste my time naming all the great players that came into this league that couldn't shoot the basketball. Evans is a poor shooter because he never had to shoot the ball. He was always able to score with ease by going to the basket. Now he'll have to learn. His freethrow shooting has already shown improvement. Please God, spare me these people that look at a 20 year old kid and then try to tell the world what his limitations are. Thank God that players like Tyreke don't listen to those people.

Thank God for posters like yourself who look at the big picture, don't condemn players 35 games into their rookie season, and have seen enough basketball to know not to make generalizations and automatic assumptions based on your own personal limitations and shortcomings.

You
Are
The
Man
 
A place where vertical leaping ability would be much more important is with the Brockmans, Hawes, Thompsons, Armstrongs of the Kings. That ability is very important for them. In my NBA watching its seldom I've seen the better small men - 1's and 2's - who go to the basket ever dunk, the talent they display is more important in my view than dunking the ball. And it's beautiful to watch. Examples here at home - Beno, Tyreke.
 
. I can't get over the arrogance and ignorance.....

This is what gets me. The arrogance and ignorance of posters, especially when ignorant statements such as "We all know he will never be an elite shooter" or "Evans will never be as good a pg as ...." or "Evans will never be a pg (even though every night that he suits up and starts, miraculously it is at that position)" or any other number of foolishly ignorant asinine comments made by people trying to detract a player on the team they are 'supposedly' rooting for, just to prove themselves right about some meaningless garbage nobody cares about anymore other than themselves.

I want to see the Kings win, no matter how they do it. But somepeople don't care about the Kings winning, all they care about is whether or not they were right about the team. Thats childish. I feel insanely sorry for those people.
 
There is no one prototype way to be successful in the NBA. You can't just get by on athleticism, you can't just get by on size/length, and you can't just get by on skills. Being better in one department can make up for lacking in another department. This concept should be very simple. Just like there are many categories in the skills department (jump shot, dribbling, ball handling, shooting, footwork, post moves, touch, vision, decision making etc.), there are categories in size and athleticism. Saying a player does not have explosive leaping ability or quickness, is not the same as saying a player is a poor athlete. Just like saying someone is a bad shooter, is not the same as saying they have poor skills.

The difference however between skills and size/athleticism is that you can't learn size and athleticism, but you can learn skills, so it affects a player's ceiling whether you like the idea of ceiling or not. If you have a player that is super skilled but severely lacks size and athleticism, there isn't a whole lot they can do to improve their game. On the other hand, if you have a player that has good size and is very athletic but severely lacks skills then there is a lot they can do to improve, they may not improve but there is a lot they can do to improve. Now these are obviously extreme examples and it doesn't even address who is better, but it points out the idea of ceiling and how different players don't always have the same room for improvement based on how their games are made up. Brandon Roy started out a very good player and he's gotten a little better every year, but he's still not likely to become that much better than he already is, which is an all-star level guard but not really a player that can carry a team.

Now as far as projecting improvement goes, you can't just look at things like players A and B are both bad shooters and they're the same age so they have the same potential to improve their shots. If a player A has good mechanics but still doesn't have great accuracy, you can project that he has a greater probability to improve his shot than you can with player B that has accuracy issues with poor mechanics. The likelihood of a player improving their mechanics depends on what the specific problems in their mechanics are and looking at history with players with similar problems and how they fared at improving them. It's a difficult process to change mechanics that are really messed up and sometimes it's not worth how much it would set a player back. The bottom line of a jump shot despite how unorthodox it is though is how high can get your shot off, how quick can you get it off (off the dribble and set), and how well you can sink it. If you can get it off higher than it can make up for whether it's a slow release, but it still limits the the contexts in which you could have gotten it off if you had both traits.

With rebounding. You can still be a good rebounder without a great reach if you have good athleticism and IQ, but you won't be able to do it in as many contexts than if you had all three because with reach all you have to do is lift your arms, but with athleticism you have to spend more energy and time leaping and moving.

It goes for finishing as well by making up for a lack of explosiveness by using reach, touch around the basket, and body control, but it still doesn't give them an ability to get high up on a big tall defender in traffic and go "over" him, and that doesn't even necessarily mean dunking. So their finishing ability ceiling is lowered because they can't do that extra thing no matter how hard they practice.

My point is that even though you can make up deficiencies in one department with ability in another, that doesn't mean that you can do things the same way. In basketball, there are so many different contexts for every little ability, and they're all apart of analyzing and projecting a player. It's not just about how many points a player scores, or rebounds they grab, or assists they dish out, it matters how they do it as well because there are advantages and disadvantages to doing certain things certain ways. You can't just look at how someone tests out in max verticals and say that's the quality of their athleticism, because there's more to it than that. That's them taking a step against no one and the quickness in which they launch makes no difference in that test, it does in the game. And personally, I think it's more valuable to be a quick leaper than it is to be a high leaper that takes long to gear up for the leap because that limits the number of contexts you can actually use it in a game. It's about beating your defender to a spot and how you beat them there, whether that spot is on the floor or in the air. Skills/fundamentals wise, Nash has the best finishing ability in the game, but he's not the best finisher in the game because he has has to play under the rim due to his lack of reach/athleticism.

When dissecting a player's abilities and projecting their ceiling, of course nothing is known for sure, but it's all about gauging probabilities by what we know about the league and what we know about players in basketball history. You have to do this because it's important to knowing how to build your team. Even with a LeBron James or Kobe Bryant, you have to build around what they do and the way they do it. You have to know what a player's strengths and weaknesses are (and it isn't always big overall categories,) and the likelihood of them improving on them, how much they can improve on them, and the way they can improve on them.
 
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