Hope come playoffs.

acisking said:
..the truth is the stats prove that the Kings are equally as soft defensively and in rebounding. Its not like the trade improved the areas which we were weakest in.
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I would wait until the end of the season before you say that. The fact is that Webber's lack of mobility put pressure on an already soft defensive team. I would suggest Webber's absence automatically makes the players on the floor better defenders. Not having to work as hard to cover Webber's defensive deficiencies will pay off. I'm not sure how great the difference will be, only time will tell. Webber's height and length were usefeul in the post but he could not rotate to a perimeter shooter. It was just physically impossible.
 
VF21 said:
You know what? I'm sick and bleeping tired of the "Webber homer" crap. I didn't see this as a thread about Webber. Sorry I couldn't discern your hidden agenda.

If you're going to call me a Webber Homer, you might as well call yourself a Webber hater.

:mad:

You posted a question and I replied. I'm infinitely sorry if I don't subscribe to your belief. You can feel we got tougher, and better defensively and in rebounding but the statistics do NOT bear that out.

And I'm not talking about Webber in any way, shape or form. If you wanted to make this ANOTHER thread to extole the trade and how much better you think we've gotten since then, why not just be honest about it?

Lighten up? Fine. Quit tossing the stupid labels around.
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^ We have also missed our teams leading rebounder since the trade, that could be a reason why our rebounding statistics do not bear out.
 
Gary said:
That lineup I listed is one of (if not) the best lineups out there. Many interchangable parts, great offense, decent defense if needed.

Player for player (on paper) who could beat that ineup? All we need is to be healthy, and have some dang chemistry, and I think we have as much chance as anyone else to go all the way!
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It is not a good lineup. Miller will not be the same coming off an injury and hasnt played all star caliber basketball consistantly and neither has Peja. Mobley doesnt do much in the first half and we dont know how he is in the playoffs. Bibby is tired so dont expect another huge playoffs for him. BJax will not be back. Thomas and Skinner... well they cant do as much as we would like. Williamson is hurt, may not come back the same and isnt playing like a 6th man.

This is not a lineup that can play defense on demand, or always play good offense. This is not a lineup of interchangable parts.
Player for Player many teams can beat us. Miami, Pheonix, San Antonio.

Defense wins championships, something we have none of. We do not have nor could we have as much of a chance of winning it all as other teams such as the Spurs or Suns. This lineup, as seen lately is not the one of the past. If we couldnt win it in the past with a better, healthier, and younger lineup, then theres no way of winning it with a not as good team in a era of IMO very very good defensive teams/players.
 
OptimusRhyme said:
^ We have also missed our teams leading rebounder since the trade, that could be a reason why our rebounding statistics do not bear out.
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The guy who replaced him (Skinner) is just as good.

The fact of the matter is that the rebounding woes were NEVER about Chris Webber or Matt Barnes -- indeed they might have been the two best rebounders on the team. And they aren't about Brian Skinner and Kenny Thomas either, who might now be the two best rebounders on the team. For the most part the problems lie at the other positions.
 
G_M said:
coughhhhh...PEJA......coughhhhhh
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Yes, obviously. ;)

But Cat too -- don't blame him as much because he's small, but he's way below average for his position as well. Third guy was Darius when I put together those rebounding threads earlier this season, but if we ever get healthy whether that continues to be a problem may depend on how the minutes are divided between Skinner/Thomas/Darius.
 
Bricklayer said:
No, you will never convince people who have watched the NBA for the past 25 years. I'm sure all of those "Webber homers" out in the national media don't believe either because of their notorious love for CWebb.

Now as for the silliness about how we were better, how about:
a) we were BETTER defensively, by quite a bit actually. And had a first team all defensive stopper in the lineup. From 2001-2003 we were a Top 10 defensive squad. In '03 we were the #1 defensive team in OppFG%.
b) we were BETTER rebounders, at least in our prime years Vlade was as good as Miller (about 8 in 30mpg to Miller's 9 in 38), Webb was at least as good as Thomas (all he did was lead the league in '99 and average between 10-11 a year for the next 5 years), and Doug was one of the best OG rebounders in the league, while Cat is simply not. And that's before we get into the tale of two Pejas.
c) We were a FAR better passing team with Vlade, Webb and Doug all better passers than their repalcements (and only Vlade/Miller even being close).
d) we had a significant post game with both Vlade and a younger Webb.
e) We were bigger/longer at all three positions that have changed, and particularly when it comes to interior defense there is no comparison -- Vlade/Webb were not all defense but were significant shotblockers.

The ONLY thing the new crew does better is shoot jumpers. We should know better than that. There are reasons we dismissed Dallas for all those years.
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Cat is averaging just as many rebounds as Doug averaged when he played for us, It was obvious that Webbs speed, and rotations on defence were holding us back, also the softness factor. What do you meen the only thing we do better is shoot jumpers? We now have Skinner who is averaging over 2 blocks a game and almost nine boards, we have the backup centre we didn't have before, We got 10 times better athletically at Power Forward and Centre,the new players are wayyyyy tougher then Webb was, and we have a backup line.
The only thing we lost is an injury prone player that shoots 25 shots a game no matter if he makes them or misses them and plays on one leg, you can't tell me we were ever going to win a championship with Webb like that.
IMO We are a wayyy better team defensively and athletically. Plus we have the players to put up Webbs 25 shots a game probably at a higher efficiency level (Miller).
 
Bricklayer said:
The guy who replaced him (Skinner) is just as good.

The fact of the matter is that the rebounding woes were NEVER about Chris Webber or Matt Barnes -- indeed they might have been the two best rebounders on the team. And they aren't about Brian Skinner and Kenny Thomas either, who might now be the two best rebounders on the team. For the most part the problems lie at the other positions.
Click to expand...

Yah but were still missing him, thats more rebounds for us when hes back! So you can't just say the guy that replaced him is just as good at rebounding so our rebounding will stay the same, because we still lost a significantly good rebounder, who will increase our rebounding when he gets back.
 
Last edited:
We are SUCH an improved rebounding team that we have been out rebounded in all but 2 games since the trade. (one of the games we won that battle was the LOSS to Charlotte) I keep hearing the term 'improved rebounding' bandied about, but I am still waiting to see it translated consistently out there on the court. I see the appearance of improved EFFORT, since the new guys are quicker and very active. Unfortunately, we are very undersized right now, and the only guys with real size on our roster is Tag.
How ready will Brad be come play off time? He hasn't really played with the new guys but a couple games. Seems a large adjustment not just to playing again, but to a whole new team. The play offs are a tough time to do that.
I would love for you to be right, but I just don't see it.
 
Um, hello, I MENTIONED Brad being missing and not returning until the play offs. He ISN'T playing, so I can't factor him in to the final push to the play offs, no matter how bad I would like to. I won't even get into the fact that, at 7 ft, he wasn't even the 'leading rebounder' on our team until now, where he is almost by default. Brad has his OWN issues, some of which include that same lack of athleticism with which we are so much 'improved' without.
 
OptimusRhyme said:
^^^^^ Were Missing Brad Miller, How Can You Not See That???
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...sigh...

Brad Miller's rebounds are being equaled by his replacement, so that's a wash.

How can YOU not see that?

We are NOT a better team defensively. If you want to throw some "yeah, buts" into the equation, fine, but it's not going to change the bottom line. Defense is about a LOT more than just rebounding. If you want to look at something, look at the number of points being scored against us. That right there tells a pretty good tale. We are, as Bricklayer has attempted to point out NUMEROUS times, outgunning our opponents. It doesn't make us better defensively.
 
"We are SUCH an improved rebounding team that we have been out rebounded in all but 2 games since the trade. (one of the games we won that battle was the LOSS to Charlotte) I keep hearing the term 'improved rebounding' bandied about, but I am still waiting to see it translated consistently out there on the court"

^ We can't even judge that untill Brad Miller is back, the reason we were outrebounded is because we are missing Brad Miller, thats what I meant when I said were missing him.
 
VF21 said:
...sigh...

Brad Miller's rebounds are being equaled by his replacement, so that's a wash.

How can YOU not see that?

We are NOT a better team defensively. If you want to throw some "yeah, buts" into the equation, fine, but it's not going to change the bottom line. Defense is about a LOT more than just rebounding. If you want to look at something, look at the number of points being scored against us. That right there tells a pretty good tale. We are, as Bricklayer has attempted to point out NUMEROUS times, outgunning our opponents. It doesn't make us better defensively.
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Ya but we would also have Brad Miller playing at centre instead of CORLISS WILLIAMSON, who is in no way the same type of rebounder as Brad so no it dosen't cancel Brads rebounds out. So when Skinners out Brad will be in so thats more rebounds? How can you not see that?
 
Oh, so we can't judge anything until Brad gets back. Got it. and then it will be, we can't judge anything until Bobby gets back, right? OK, I'm with the program now.
 
OptimusRhyme said:
^^^^^ Were Missing Brad Miller, How Can You Not See That???
Click to expand...

Let's try this again:

Brad Miller +38 minutes = Thomas/Skinner -38min = marginal improvemetn in reboudning at best. The ONLY place where we will gain in rebounding is in any minutes Thomas or Skinner get that Darius does not. That is IT. Brad, Webb, Skinner, Thomas all rebound at similar rates (at least this year) -- it doesn't matter WHICH ones of them are available + getting major minutes. There are only 96 minutes to be had at the two positions.
 
Bricklayer said:
Let's try this again:

Brad Miller +38 minutes = Thomas/Skinner -38min = marginal improvemetn in reboudning at best. The ONLY place where we will gain in rebounding is in any minutes Thomas or Skinner get that Darius does not. That is IT. Brad, Webb, Skinner, Thomas all rebound at similar rates (at least this year) -- it doesn't matter WHICH ones of them are available + getting major minutes. There are only 96 minutes to be had at the two positions.
Click to expand...

Yah so Thomas is a better rebounder then Darius. YES.. and Thomas will be playing more then Darius.. Yes so that meens were better at rebounding.......YESSS...
 
No, when were talking about rebounding I think you should factor our leading rebounder into the picture? Don't you?
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He isn't able to get many from the bench, which is where he is, for the rest of the season. You can't just assume that he would ADD, oh 8-10 rebounds to what we are currently getting, since he would be playing in PLACE of someone else who is currently getting rebounds.
 
"He isn't able to get many from the bench, which is where he is, for the rest of the season. You can't just assume that he would ADD, oh 8-10 rebounds to what we are currently getting, since he would be playing in PLACE of someone else who is currently getting rebounds."

So your saying playing Brad Miller on centre instead of Corliss wont get us more rebounds?
 
KP said:
This thread is spinning wildly out of the realm of reality.
Click to expand...

Agreed people can't accept that without there precious Webb we are a better team.

And no I'm not a Webb hater, he was my favourite player, but I geuss I am the only to see that we are a better team defensively and rebounding wise.
 
OptimusRhyme - The only way we get better in the Webber/Miller and Thomas/Skinner/Miller scenario is if you can convince the NBA to let us play 6 at a time.

One more thing? Where in the world did you get the idea Corliss plays center? He's a forward. NOT A CENTER!!!!
 
He has played backup centre for us at times, when we would normally with Miller in the lineup have Miller or Skinner playing that spot.. Have you not seen the last cuple games where Corliss has guarded their centre???
 
OptimusRhyme said:
Agreed people can't accept that without there precious Webb we are a better team.

And no I'm not a Webb hater, he was my favourite player, but I geuss I am the only to see that we are a better team defensively and rebounding wise.
Click to expand...

You know what? This crap has gotten way beyond old.

If you cannot make your point without bringing the Webb hater label into the mix, then you obviously don't have a leg to stand on.
 
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