GoGoGadget
All-Star
VF21 said:
Genetic experiment gone wrong -- DNA samples were used to create the bastard son of Mike Bibby and Bobby Jackson, "Biobby."
They keep "him" in a little jar behind Arco.
I've seen it.
Grades v. Sonics 04/29
- Thread starter Bricklayer
- Start date
Genetic experiment gone wrong -- DNA samples were used to create the bastard son of Mike Bibby and Bobby Jackson, "Biobby."
They keep "him" in a little jar behind Arco.
I've seen it.
Alacron
Bench
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
From watching the game, that's not the impression I got. Lewis may be off his game, but Peja is not making it easy for him. It's not a coincidence that the guy Peja's guarding usually has a bad night. He's just a smart defender who doesn't go for fakes, stays in front of his man, and always puts a hand in his face.
We didn't need too much of Peja on offense last night, fortunately. The problem is that when we do need him, we can never count on him to step up. But I think it's only fair to judge Peja one game at a time, and last game he did enough to help us to the win.
I see it as a two-part grade, half for offense, half for defense. I give him a A- for defense, making their #2 option a non-factor and outrebounding him 3-2, and a D- for offense, 12 points on 11 shots, 0 assists. I'd let him have a C overall.
~~
bozzwell
Starter
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
It really doesn't matter whether he stopped Lewis or Lewis was not a gamer to beging with. The point is that Pedja D-ed up on Lewis whole night long (and couple of brief assignements on Allen). As much as you cannot say that Pedja played _great_ D on Lewis because Lewis might not be that good to beging with, you cannot dismiss Pedja's D just because Lewis might not be that good to begin with. Pedjas still hustled up D on him.
Alacron said:
OK, seriously guys. . .he is playing Lewis because Ray would demolish him and Ridnour wouldn't even blink going past him, while any big man Seattle has would crush him inside. Lewis is hampered by injury. The reason the guy that Peja guards "usually" has a bad night is because he always guards the other team's worst player. I started off trying to give the guy some kudos, but alot of you people are getting ridiculous. Peja's a smart defender? How many steals does he average? How many rebounds does he get? He is a HORRIBLE defender. He doesn't go for fakes because he couldn't block Earl Boykins. But a guy like Lewis will make him look good because he is almost as soft as Peja himself, and all Peja has to do is faceguard him all night. If Lewis' shot is off, then Peja looks like a good defender. If Lewis is hitting, Peja is exposed, and now you have to double to get the ball out of Lewis' hands, creating problems elsewhere in the team scheme. Good on Peja for hustling around, but ya'll need to knock this demogoguery off. Really.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Venom said:
As much as I think he wasn't the reason Lewis was so bad Friday, I can't go THAT far, or close to it. He's a bad help defender, rotates softly, refuses to block shots or stick his nose in there. But his man to man defense is actually pretty good. He's pays attention, stays in front of his man, is pretty saavy over there, rarely makes bad mistakes, and when properly inspired can even get up on them and harass them. He's no stopper, and if somebody has a 10pt game the odds of it being because of Peja are pretty low. But on the other hand, except for the truly great players just out of his (or most everyone's) league, I think its pretty hard to have a huge game against him unless you're just ridiculously hot. He's always going to be there, isn't going to give you too many easy ones, will have his hand up in your face (mitigated somewhat by the extreme unliklihood he's going to block it, but still distracting). He shows some pride on that end of the floor and does well enough I normally don't worry about him.
Standing on a dunghill and actually crowing about his defense is probably good for a few laughs anywhere but Kingsville, but I don't think he has much to be ashamed of on that side (unless you are adding reboudning/hustle in as defense). Ironically I actually worry less about his defense on a night to night basis than I do any other part of his game.
iheartBrad
All-Star
solid grades Brick...I'm obviously very late to this thread but who cares... 
Couple of things I just want to say...#1 I figured people would be kinda hard on Darius cuz he did pick up the 5 fouls in 12 mins...but for me IMO I thought at least 3 of his 5 fouls were good fouls...hard "this is the playoffs" fouls...fouls that prevented an easy basket by the Sonics...and he didn't allow any And1's which is he pretty famous for on the Kings....so he didn't do much out there and I agree he deserved the grade he got but I didn't really see his fouls as being that bad...
As for RA again I knew there would be mention of that small ball lineup he had in there...which I agree was pretty nauseating when I saw it on the court...BUT I don't think it really killed us and he didn't stick with it for that long...so I'm willing to look past it for this or that game 3...
The Arco Crowd was just beautiful every single one of them...they really did their jobs on Friday night and I agree that the game was basically won in the first with the burst of energy that both the players and the crowd provided...I was pretty insulted when Mike Terrico commented about how ARCO is similar to the Key when it came to being a "loud house" ...I was fine with the comparison to the Packers fans...cuz I really agree with that and Packers fans are pretty damn loud and loyal if ya ask me...but you absolutely had to compare ARCO arena and the fans presence to another team in the league it definetly WOULD NOT have been the Sonics and Key Arena...I really think ARCO is in a league of its own..but if I had to compare...those Nuggets fans in Denver pretty damn crunk if ya ask me...and that would be pretty much the only arena simlarity I'd be interested in hearing about...
GO KINGS!!
Couple of things I just want to say...#1 I figured people would be kinda hard on Darius cuz he did pick up the 5 fouls in 12 mins...but for me IMO I thought at least 3 of his 5 fouls were good fouls...hard "this is the playoffs" fouls...fouls that prevented an easy basket by the Sonics...and he didn't allow any And1's which is he pretty famous for on the Kings....so he didn't do much out there and I agree he deserved the grade he got but I didn't really see his fouls as being that bad...
As for RA again I knew there would be mention of that small ball lineup he had in there...which I agree was pretty nauseating when I saw it on the court...BUT I don't think it really killed us and he didn't stick with it for that long...so I'm willing to look past it for this or that game 3...
The Arco Crowd was just beautiful every single one of them...they really did their jobs on Friday night and I agree that the game was basically won in the first with the burst of energy that both the players and the crowd provided...I was pretty insulted when Mike Terrico commented about how ARCO is similar to the Key when it came to being a "loud house" ...I was fine with the comparison to the Packers fans...cuz I really agree with that and Packers fans are pretty damn loud and loyal if ya ask me...but you absolutely had to compare ARCO arena and the fans presence to another team in the league it definetly WOULD NOT have been the Sonics and Key Arena...I really think ARCO is in a league of its own..but if I had to compare...those Nuggets fans in Denver pretty damn crunk if ya ask me...and that would be pretty much the only arena simlarity I'd be interested in hearing about...
GO KINGS!!
Bricklayer said:
The top line is exactly why he is a bad defender. You cannot incorporate him into a team concept, because he does not grasp team defensive principles. That is man-to-man defense. Locking in on your man for 48 minutes is not man-to-man. You need to be able to help, rotate, bring the double, crash boards, box out, dive into the key to shut down penetration. And all 5 players on the floor need to be able to do that. That's real man-to-man defense, like what the Pistons play. Even Rip gets after it. Peja has far and away the easiest assignment. All he has to do is stay with Lewis, the Sonics least mobile (and slightly hampered) SG/SF. He does not have to worry about anything else. I don't think people realize how easy his job is. I know you do Brick, and I used a bit of hyperbole in my previous post, but every other King on the floor has MUCH more defensive responsiblity than Peja. I give the guy credit for hustling, but the way Rick uses him is further evidence of how little he grasps on the defensive end.
The way I look at defense on the Kings grade-wise is, if they can keep their man in front of them most of the time, then it won't damage their final score. Unfortunately that's not the case for at least some Kings players any given night. Therefore, they usually up their grade by putting out a great offensive performance or grabbing rebounds (though I guess you could argue defensive rebounds could be part of the defense score, but I just go with rebounds as its own category). You can still get an A if you go off for 30 and 10 dimes but stink it up on the other end (example).
Now, going above and beyond this modicum of defense is a rare occasion. It would have to be pretty damn good to get whole letter grade increases while other categories suffer. Also, there's always the idea of "fluke" games where you're not sure if it's the player or his opponent that's causing the misses. Because if it's really the Kings player's defense, then why hasn't it shown up more consistently all year? The answer is because we have no defensive stoppers on our team and anything extra they put out is gravy. But I'm pretty skeptical of any one night's performance and the defense would have to be pretty damn OBVIOUS for me to give any significant credit. I assume Brick and some others think along the same lines.
I expect Kings players to fill their job description. If we brought in a defensive stopper and he shuts down his man, holding them 3-5% below their season average, whoever they are. Then that becomes who he is. I won't second guess his defensive performances because chances are, it's probably him having the impact, not his opponent having a bad game. I'd be very comfortable having much of his grade being decided by his defensive impact (a la' Bruce Bowen or Big Ben).
I expect offensive minded players to perform offensively. What a concept, huh? If they want to add defense to their game, then great. Let's see it for 82 games next season as well. I don't understand why it should excuse them on the other end of the floor though. The coach isn't telling them to enter the game and shut down someone at the expense of offense. I'd bet that given a choice, a coach would want a player to do what he should be doing (with the assumption that they do it well).
I'll save the A+ for when Peja plays solid defense and gets 25 on 50% shooting. I'll also want at least 6 boards and a presence (not even a good one) in the 4th quarter. If Peja starts playing stopper defense, then we'll have to reevaluate his scale. I'm not holding my breath, though.
Now, going above and beyond this modicum of defense is a rare occasion. It would have to be pretty damn good to get whole letter grade increases while other categories suffer. Also, there's always the idea of "fluke" games where you're not sure if it's the player or his opponent that's causing the misses. Because if it's really the Kings player's defense, then why hasn't it shown up more consistently all year? The answer is because we have no defensive stoppers on our team and anything extra they put out is gravy. But I'm pretty skeptical of any one night's performance and the defense would have to be pretty damn OBVIOUS for me to give any significant credit. I assume Brick and some others think along the same lines.
I expect Kings players to fill their job description. If we brought in a defensive stopper and he shuts down his man, holding them 3-5% below their season average, whoever they are. Then that becomes who he is. I won't second guess his defensive performances because chances are, it's probably him having the impact, not his opponent having a bad game. I'd be very comfortable having much of his grade being decided by his defensive impact (a la' Bruce Bowen or Big Ben).
I expect offensive minded players to perform offensively. What a concept, huh? If they want to add defense to their game, then great. Let's see it for 82 games next season as well. I don't understand why it should excuse them on the other end of the floor though. The coach isn't telling them to enter the game and shut down someone at the expense of offense. I'd bet that given a choice, a coach would want a player to do what he should be doing (with the assumption that they do it well).
I'll save the A+ for when Peja plays solid defense and gets 25 on 50% shooting. I'll also want at least 6 boards and a presence (not even a good one) in the 4th quarter. If Peja starts playing stopper defense, then we'll have to reevaluate his scale. I'm not holding my breath, though.
quick dog
Starter
Rashard Lewis and Peja Stojakovic have very similar regular-season and playoff statistics. However, Peja's shooting numbers are better. Rashard was an Allstar this year. Peja was not. Who should win this match-up?
Peja has guarded Lewis throughout the first three games, and Lewis' shooting and scoring statistics dropped by about 25% from the regular 2004-2005 season to the playoffs.
Am I to understand that Peja's defense sucks, and that Lewis is not shooting lights-out because of his recent injuries? What about Peja's recent injury? No pun intended, but that's a lame line of reasoning.
Lewis' FG% dropped from 40.2% to 37.1% in the 2005 playoffs. Again, his 3pt% also declined from 40.0% to 33.3%. His scoring totals went from 20.5 ppg to 13.0 ppg in the playoffs.
Peja has scored an average of 15.0 ppg, with 6.0 rpg in the 2005 playoffs. He has no steals, and only one block. His counter-part has averaged 13.0 ppg, 2.3 rpg, and 1.3 apg. Rashard Lewis has not been a big factor in these three games, mostly because of Peja.
If everyone on the Kings squad had equaled, or bettered, their opponent's performances like Peja has done in this playoff series, then the Kings would be up three to zero.
Peja has guarded Lewis throughout the first three games, and Lewis' shooting and scoring statistics dropped by about 25% from the regular 2004-2005 season to the playoffs.
Am I to understand that Peja's defense sucks, and that Lewis is not shooting lights-out because of his recent injuries? What about Peja's recent injury? No pun intended, but that's a lame line of reasoning.
Lewis' FG% dropped from 40.2% to 37.1% in the 2005 playoffs. Again, his 3pt% also declined from 40.0% to 33.3%. His scoring totals went from 20.5 ppg to 13.0 ppg in the playoffs.
Peja has scored an average of 15.0 ppg, with 6.0 rpg in the 2005 playoffs. He has no steals, and only one block. His counter-part has averaged 13.0 ppg, 2.3 rpg, and 1.3 apg. Rashard Lewis has not been a big factor in these three games, mostly because of Peja.
If everyone on the Kings squad had equaled, or bettered, their opponent's performances like Peja has done in this playoff series, then the Kings would be up three to zero.
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iheartBrad
All-Star
^I would agree with that last part qd
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
quick dog said:
Luke Ridnour couldn't hit the broad side of a barn in Games 1 & 2, do you think it was because of Mike Bibby's defense? Just because "a" exists, and "b" exists does not mean that a is necessarily the proximate cause of b in the absence of tangible evidence.
I have not seen Peja do anything to cause Lewis is average 13ppg or grab 2.3rebs a game. Perhaps Lewis is hurt. Perhaps Lewis suffers from Pejaitis in the playoffs. But something is up far beyond Peja's defense on him (which has been solid, but nothing remotely enough to cause an All Star to play like a scrub). And vice versa by the way -- I've mentioned hat Lewis isn't doing enough to get credit for totally shutting Peja down either. Peja is shutting down Peja. Peja may be playing lockdown defense on a SF this year, but its not Seattle's SF.
Alacron
Bench
Venom said:
Are you seriously suggesting that a 6'10" forward should be able to keep a point guard from blowing by him? The reason Peja is playing Lewis is because ::drum roll: they play the same position! And if Peja were to play Allen, I guarantee he'd make a better showing against him than Mobley would do against Lewis.
BTW, if you hadn't noticed, Brad Miller and Brian Skinner have been getting crushed inside by 7'1" 300-lb. James so of course Peja would get crushed as well.
Venom said:
Not really worth responding to, but in case you forgot, Lewis is a guy who has scored 50 in a game, he's a current All-Star, and Seattle's #2 option on offense.
Some of this is getting as ridiculous as the Webber-hating was.
~~
bozzwell
Starter
quick dog said:
Interesting interpretation and not at all unreasonable, except that Pedja himslef probably thinks of himself as a much, much better player then Lewis. So do you and so do I and so does most of Kingsfans.com. And that's why most posters in this thread are either reluctant to revise Pedja's grade on bases of his D or in my case would go only half a grade up.
iheartBrad
All-Star
I think Rashard is having a bad series all by his lonesome...
Stojakovic
Bench
VF21 said:
Rashard Lewis on Mo Evans in the post would be a disaster. Mo is a good defender, but he would get owned by Lewis if he was isolated 1 on 1.
iheartBrad
All-Star
^^RA said he experimented with that matchup during the regular season and that DID NOT WORK hehehehehe
bozzwell
Starter
quick dog said:
That's right - if you're not a monarchist. And don't I know it: This is the first year that I didn't win Fantasy NBA office league at work. I have almost indentical team every year and while Shaq missing games at the end of the season has hurt me I lost in categoris that I usually lock down for the whole year: FG%, 3pts, 3FG%. My small forward had a down year (guess who) and the eventual winner had R. Lewis at SF. I think that Lewis is in his contract year, but looking at his body of work in NBA and comparing it to Pedja, I think that it is reasonable to assume that Pedja would be more of Lewis-killer then vice versa. Not to mention play-off experience where Lewis is a distant second.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
quick dog said:
Rashard is having the better year. But is he better? Eh, not realy. If he can maintain this level I think they are roughly equal talents at this point. Peja probably a little more prolific, Lewis more versatile with his post game, a little shotblocking, a bit more rebounding etc..
mr. moustache
Bench
quick dog said:
Who would have thunk it. Both Peja and Rashard playing savant-like defense. Let's face the truth. Both guys are trying..kind of.. and both are sucking to high heaven.
Stojakovic
Bench
VF21 said:Oops. I forgot a cardinal rule about message boards: Hyperbole and subtle nuances of sarcasm are totally lost without proper use of emoticons.
Ooops
PixelPusher
Starter
VF21 said:Oops. I forgot a cardinal rule about message boards: Hyperbole and subtle nuances of sarcasm are totally lost without proper use of emoticons.
hyperbole and sarcasm? on a message board?
SIR HENRY 8
Bench
yeah we need to shut that down a little,and i think we should be playing the Miller/Tag combo alot more,whats up with not playing Tag ?as far as Peja,a great defender,i don't think hes great but Lewis being shut down for 3 games is more than a coincidence.IMOBigWaxer said:
