Grades v. Grizzlies 11/02/09

[cstorm]

I just want to clarify my position. This thread has turned a little to the dark side and I don't want to cast my support for burning Kevin at the stake.

HE PLAYED AN INCREDIBLE GAME.

Unfortunately I could only listen to the game on the radio and then read the comments on this site about Kevin's defense. If Kevin was giving an honest effort on defense, then so be it. If however, he has decided that scoring lots of points forgives him for not trying on defense, I have some criticism.

I could hear the excitement in the announcers voice when Beno, Casspi, or Spencer made a great defensive effort. It sent me back to better days. Threes droppin', shots blocked, steals, clutch stops. It was magical for many minutes.

I don't want to settle for going through the motions anymore. We have had that for more years than I care to remember, and it's frustrating. I would like to see EVERY player on this team play to their FULL potential with no exceptions. If they don't, I would hope that the fans and coaches let them know that they need to pick it up, even if they average 25 points per game.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

TS% by Kevin specifically coresponds to what exactly ?

TS%, or true shooting percentage, is defined as:

POINTS/(2*(FGA + 0.44*FTA))

The factor of 2 in the denominator makes it so that a player who takes one two-point shot and hits it (without being fouled) has a TS% of 1. The 0.44*FTA is an estimator of how many "shot attempts" resulted in free throws but are not counted in FGA, which is one of your main objections. I do not remember the details, but this estimate was derived experimentally and should hold so long as there is a sufficient amount of data (like a whole career, for sure). So, if you multiply TS% by 2, you will get the number of points a player scores, on average, each time he shoots the ball (or tries to shoot the ball and is fouled).

The stat that was given is 17pt on 11 shots which is BS. What do you get when you add FTAs here ? 14 shots, 15 shots ? That is the BS I am objecting to especially because the same person who brought it up - is the same person who argued against it when we were talking about Pedja's efficiency in the past making him a hypocrite.

As I mentioned above, TS% takes that into account. I believe it is a very good measure of shooting efficiency. And Martin, for his career, ranks 13th in the NBA and ABA all-time. That's pretty good.

 

[Bricklayer]

I could hear the excitement in the announcers voice when Beno, Casspi, or Spencer made a great defensive effort. It sent me back to better days. Threes droppin', shots blocked, steals, clutch stops. It was magical for many minutes.

I think everybody might want to cool it a bit on the defensive effort thing after we gave up 116pts.

We did show some scrap though, so maybe its competent defensive effort that is in question.

 

[rainmaker]

Kevin was the best player on the floor last night. He played one of the best all-around games of his career. Can his defense improve? Of course. But the effort I've seen on that end from him so far this season is night and day compared to last.

For everyone harping on how Kevin still needs to improve after carrying this team with 48 pts, how about looking at the total lack of production from JT. That is much more alarming at this point. Dude can't even stay on the court.

Kevin is still a work in progress, but so far he has improved in every category this season compared to last. His playmaking has been a little better, even posting up and kicking it out a few times. His rebounding has picked up a little, although I see more of an effort on the offensive glass. He's at over 2 steals a game, and his effort on defense has been MUCH better, eventhough the result isn't great. He has even shown some ability to lead, and be more vocal. We're only 4 games in, but I can find much more fault in other players on this roster at this point.

 

[NME]

I think everybody might want to cool it a bit on the defensive effort thing after we gave up 116pts.

Only 110 in regulation!

 

[Merdiesel]

Works for me. I'm pretty sure playing defense was in the job description when he took the gig. When you have a player score 48 points and his team just barely pulls off a win, or has a 12 win season, something is wrong. In my mind, Kevin Martin has come to represent the lack of commitment by the Kings to DEFENSE. As far as I'm concerned, any player not committed to playing said defense should earn a place on the bench, 48 points or not. 13 jabs is going easy on him in my opinion.

Oh come on...
When he took the gig?.. What the hell does that mean? He didn't apply for the job, he was drafted. Petrie knew exactly what he was getting in K-Mart...

I'm sure us barely pulling off a win has all to do with Martin's poor defense and nothing to do with:

• coach Westphal's genius decisions to start the game 3 on 5
• Hawes taking stupid 3's allowing for multiple fast break buckets
• Thompson getting destroyed by Randolph
• Our team collectively being out rebounded by 17 boards

Also, I'll go out on a limb and say that Jason Thompson's man to man defense is just as bad, if not worse than Martin's D. Atleast Martin gives his guy a chance to miss the shot. JT just hacks the living **** out of his man before he even gets the ball. He fouls more than anyone in the entire league, why doesn't he get and crap for that?

 

[Kingster]

This thread is actually funny to read, in a sad little kind of way.

I was there last night. Kevin Martin sparked the team and he was a constant figure down the stretch. Those of you who don't want to give him the credit he deserves, no problem. Those who want to point out there are deficiencies in his game, also no problem. This is a young team with problems that managed to eke out a tough win because of heart, determination and hustle. They didn't give up and they didn't stop trying. If you don't agree with Bricklayer, which I often don't, that's also no problem. Instead of wringing your hands and making silly accusations, etc. why not refute his grades with logic, reason and sound argument? Just a thought...

Martin actually played defense and did his best to cover his man. Was it perfect? Hell, no, but it was true effort. Some of you really need to lighten up just a bit, folks. This was a good game ... emphasis on the word GAME. It was entertaining, it showed the hope and promise of some of our young players, and it ended with a W.

That's more than good enough for this very hoarse but happy Kings fan.

I LOVE THIS TEAM!!!

I'll second that about the heart and fight. And what I really like was Tyreke going out at mid-court to encourage the guys that were playing, as well as all the other guys patting each other to encourage each other. That's why I REALLY wanted them to win last night - to get some positive reinforcement for their fight and teamwork.

 

[Bricklayer]

Also, I'll go out on a limb and say that Jason Thompson's man to man defense is just as bad, if not worse than Martin's D. Atleast Martin gives his guy a chance to miss the shot. JT just hacks the living **** out of his man before he even gets the ball. He fouls more than anyone in the entire league, why doesn't he get and crap for that?

I do poke sticks at him for it, but a one word answer:

effort.

Kevin's lack of defense over the years has almost entirely been because he's been lazy and really bordering on a prima donna who thought his scoring entitled him to not work. Well that and having the organization's collective lips' glued to his cheeks.

JT's hackwork is something else. You can't question the effort, the desire to play defense he exhibits. But you can very much question his competence. And all in all those two situations are not comaprable when to comes to criticism. The guy leaving everything he has on the floor, even if he's lacking talent, is always worth far more respect than the guy who could do better but just does not care. You may have to replace both if you ever want to be good, but the dirtworker is going to leave town with your respect, the prima donna is not.

As an aside, its all of 4 games in, but I have sporadically seen better attitude from Kevin this season. Saying his numbers are up is intetionally deceptive -- they are up because he is playing more minutes. Normalize the minutes and the rebounds + assits are nearly identical. Steals are legitmately up though, although small sample size at this point obviously. And numbers or no, in 2 of the first 4 games there was a distinct impression that Kevin was actually trying to be a teammate, not a pretty boy. In fact in general I think that Westphal has been stressing hustle with all the guys, and while we are spotty, we have fits and spurts fo good effort out there.

 

[bajaden]

martin played his *** off.... to play 52 minutes and score 48 points takes a lot out of a person. we probably wont be seeing that any time soon.

Amazingly he told Grant and Jerry after the game that he felt fine. A little tired, but fine... He looked fine too. Thats a lot of minutes though..So yeah, I doubt he'll be doing that every night.

 

[bajaden]

There would be 2. One would belong to Gary. The other would belong to the Laker fan, err, I mean AM27, the Kings fan!

Kevin had a great game, kudos to him. He still gets lost on defense but not as much as he used to. Dude can fill it up though. Some of those threes he hit were a few feet behind the line. He doesn't even look to find the line anymore, he just thinks to himself "Hell, I'm in range. Why not?"

Gary's usually pretty optimistic. He's just having a rough time this year. I'm willing to cut him some slack.. As for AM27, I'm still going to buy him beer at the game and I'm bringing my peace pipe. Maybe my tomahawk too.....

 

[bajaden]

I do however apologize for actually pointing out Kevin's mistakes in a game I was attempting to grade and that Mayo repeatedly left Kevin standing all alone out on the 3pt line -- I mean those things have no place in a post game analysis who's primary purpose is to laud and cheerlead blindly while hugging myslef over how wonderful our heroes are. I'll try to do better.

Well saints be praised. Bricky! Welcome to the bright side. I will miss the old Bricky though...

 

[bajaden]

TS% by Kevin specifically coresponds to what exactly ?

The stat that was given is 17pt on 11 shots which is BS. What do you get when you add FTAs here ? 14 shots, 15 shots ? That is the BS I am objecting to especially because the same person who brought it up - is the same person who argued against it when we were talking about Pedja's efficiency in the past making him a hypocrite.

I did an entire thread on this very subject and posted all the other big name similar players in the league. Martin is right up there in FTA's, but if you look at Kobe and Wade and other similar high scoring players, you'll find that they also go to the line a lot. So Martin compares very well with them offensively. Defensively is another matter, and thats what really seperates him from a lot of those players.

 

[bajaden]

I just want to clarify my position. This thread has turned a little to the dark side and I don't want to cast my support for burning Kevin at the stake.

HE PLAYED AN INCREDIBLE GAME.

Unfortunately I could only listen to the game on the radio and then read the comments on this site about Kevin's defense. If Kevin was giving an honest effort on defense, then so be it. If however, he has decided that scoring lots of points forgives him for not trying on defense, I have some criticism.

I could hear the excitement in the announcers voice when Beno, Casspi, or Spencer made a great defensive effort. It sent me back to better days. Threes droppin', shots blocked, steals, clutch stops. It was magical for many minutes.

I don't want to settle for going through the motions anymore. We have had that for more years than I care to remember, and it's frustrating. I would like to see EVERY player on this team play to their FULL potential with no exceptions. If they don't, I would hope that the fans and coaches let them know that they need to pick it up, even if they average 25 points per game.

I believe the Kings had 10 blocked shots in last nights game. I can't remember the last time they had that many blocked shots. Casspi had two.. Back to the altar to light another candle.

 

[Kingsguy881]

Gary's usually pretty optimistic. He's just having a rough time this year. I'm willing to cut him some slack.. As for AM27, I'm still going to buy him beer at the game and I'm bringing my peace pipe. Maybe my tomahawk too.....

LMAO! I'm sorry, all I have seen from these guys is a tendency to blame Tyreke or downtalk him. They haven't even given him a chance or looked at his play objectively. That's frustrating, when I'm rooting for some guys and there are always one or two guys there to downtalk them.

 

[Kingsguy881]

I do poke sticks at him for it, but a one word answer:

effort.

Kevin's lack of defense over the years has almost entirely been because he's been lazy and really bordering on a prima donna who thought his scoring entitled him to not work. Well that and having the organization's collective lips' glued to his cheeks.

JT's hackwork is something else. You can't question the effort, the desire to play defense he exhibits. But you can very much question his competence. And all in all those two situations are not comaprable when to comes to criticism. The guy leaving everything he has on the floor, even if he's lacking talent, is always worth far more respect than the guy who could do better but just does not care. You may have to replace both if you ever want to be good, but the dirtworker is going to leave town with your respect, the prima donna is not.

As an aside, its all of 4 games in, but I have sporadically seen better attitude from Kevin this season. Saying his numbers are up is intetionally deceptive -- they are up because he is playing more minutes. Normalize the minutes and the rebounds + assits are nearly identical. Steals are legitmately up though, although small sample size at this point obviously. And numbers or no, in 2 of the first 4 games there was a distinct impression that Kevin was actually trying to be a teammate, not a pretty boy. In fact in general I think that Westphal has been stressing hustle with all the guys, and while we are spotty, we have fits and spurts fo good effort out there.

I distinctly see him out there trying to get in passing lanes and after he makes a mistake on defense he genuinely looks like he feels bad he let his teammates down. Yes, he kinda floats through games, but I don't think we can ask a whole heckuva lot more from him if he is still to be productive.

 

[bajaden]

Oh come on...
When he took the gig?.. What the hell does that mean? He didn't apply for the job, he was drafted. Petrie knew exactly what he was getting in K-Mart...

I'm sure us barely pulling off a win has all to do with Martin's poor defense and nothing to do with:

• coach Westphal's genius decisions to start the game 3 on 5
• Hawes taking stupid 3's allowing for multiple fast break buckets
• Thompson getting destroyed by Randolph
• Our team collectively being out rebounded by 17 boards

Also, I'll go out on a limb and say that Jason Thompson's man to man defense is just as bad, if not worse than Martin's D. Atleast Martin gives his guy a chance to miss the shot. JT just hacks the living **** out of his man before he even gets the ball. He fouls more than anyone in the entire league, why doesn't he get and crap for that?

I believe that Bricky mentioned the fact that JT was in foul trouble again. No one is giving him a free ride. I don't recall anyone saying that he had a great game. JT built himself a rep last year. So if he wants the ticky tacky fouls to stop, then he just has to smile and walk away. I know he's just showing his emotions and is really just frustrated with himself. But to a ref, it looks like he showing them up. If the doesn't get on their good side, this could haunt him his whole career. And that would be a damm shame..

 

[rainmaker]

On a side note, Amick just said Spencer will be starting tomorrow night-from what he's been told.

 

[bajaden]

As an aside, its all of 4 games in, but I have sporadically seen better attitude from Kevin this season. Saying his numbers are up is intetionally deceptive -- they are up because he is playing more minutes. Normalize the minutes and the rebounds + assits are nearly identical. Steals are legitmately up though, although small sample size at this point obviously. And numbers or no, in 2 of the first 4 games there was a distinct impression that Kevin was actually trying to be a teammate, not a pretty boy. In fact in general I think that Westphal has been stressing hustle with all the guys, and while we are spotty, we have fits and spurts fo good effort out there.

I don't want to keep hammering on Martin. Lord knows there's been enough of that already. Thank god we won. But I agree with you on the effort part. It appears to me that Martin, while trying to defend, overplays his man, and not only when he's going for a steal. In order to defend a player, you have to know what that players tendicies are. Which means you have to do your homework. If a player likes to go right, you overplay him in that direction and make him go left. I'm not saying Martin doesn't put in the time. He seems to have a good work ethic. Maybe this defense thing is a whole new concept to him. But last night I saw effort.. Thats a step in the right direction.

 

[cstorm]

JT just hacks the living **** out of his man before he even gets the ball. He fouls more than anyone in the entire league, why doesn't he get and crap for that?

There is plenty of crap to go around. I believe we were discussing Kevin's crap, or lack of, this evening. I think I can pencil in a little crap tonight for Jason if that pleases you.

 

[NME]

On a side note, Amick just said Spencer will be starting tomorrow night-from what he's been told.

Good, now Omri at the 3.

 

[Kingsguy881]

On a side note, Amick just said Spencer will be starting tomorrow night-from what he's been told.

Yes!! He earned it.

 

[King Baller]

Great game for the Kings I was sure glad to see AI go to the bench!!!

KB

 

[sauce-26]

Is it safe to say that Omri is more impressive right now than Evans. We knew what we were getting in Evans, A great player. But casspi has been a real pleasant surprise.

 

[Heuge]

what is the winning % of teams that he is playing for - or does than not count into efficiency.

he will always remain only half of basketball player until he starts defending

This was not a discussion about defense or team winning percentage, it was scoring efficiency.

 

[Heuge]

TS% by Kevin specifically coresponds to what exactly ?

The stat that was given is 17pt on 11 shots which is BS. What do you get when you add FTAs here ? 14 shots, 15 shots ? That is the BS I am objecting to especially because the same person who brought it up - is the same person who argued against it when we were talking about Pedja's efficiency in the past making him a hypocrite.

Never did I argue about Peja that way, nice try. All my post are still around. Go ahead, find one where I praised or knocked Peja based on efficiency. The only problem I have ever had with Peja is his lack of ability in the 4th quarter and playoffs. I wish he would have done better.
But this is about Martin...17 points on 11 FGA per game is excellent. What I find odd is a lack of humility to even consider that this is at least good. It is ok to admit you were mistaken, especially when all the data is stacked against you. Martin has been throughout his career, an efficient scorer. Noone, outside of You, is willing to debate this.

 

[VF21]

I just want to clarify my position. This thread has turned a little to the dark side and I don't want to cast my support for burning Kevin at the stake.

HE PLAYED AN INCREDIBLE GAME.

Unfortunately I could only listen to the game on the radio and then read the comments on this site about Kevin's defense. If Kevin was giving an honest effort on defense, then so be it. If however, he has decided that scoring lots of points forgives him for not trying on defense, I have some criticism.

I could hear the excitement in the announcers voice when Beno, Casspi, or Spencer made a great defensive effort. It sent me back to better days. Threes droppin', shots blocked, steals, clutch stops. It was magical for many minutes.

I don't want to settle for going through the motions anymore. We have had that for more years than I care to remember, and it's frustrating. I would like to see EVERY player on this team play to their FULL potential with no exceptions. If they don't, I would hope that the fans and coaches let them know that they need to pick it up, even if they average 25 points per game.

Kevin Martin has not done anything, IMHO, to merit that kind of criticism. I have strong objections to those who call him lazy or unwilling to try, etc. He did give full effort all the time playing all but about 22 seconds AND managing to put 48 points on the board. And he did it without being selfish - there were several occasions when he kicked out to someone else to help them get involved in the flow of the game.

What I saw last night was effort on the part of every single player that took the court, whether it was for 2 minutes or 48 minutes. They gave their all out there and I think Kings fans have every reason to smile, at least for a while. It was a good game - and Martin had the well-deserved respect of every person in that arena. It was almost tangible - the energy flowing from the stands onto court to Kevin came close to the Arco Thunder of old and it was incredible to feel again, even for a short while, what we used to feel on a regular basis when a certain group of young men would take the court and very promptly take our breath away.

Am I gushing? Hell yes. Were any of them perfect? Nope, but none of them ever will be. That's what makes it fun.

 

[gunks]

Am I gushing? Hell yes. Were any of them perfect? Nope, but none of them ever will be. That's what makes it fun.

....I actually think it would be more fun if some of our players WERE perfect

 

[VF21]

Did anyone mention that the original RUDY from the movie of the same name was in Arco last night? I was impressed... he doesn't look anything like Sean Astin.

 

[cstorm]

I have strong objections to those who call him lazy or unwilling to try, etc. He did give full effort all the time playing all but about 22 seconds AND managing to put 48 points on the board. And he did it without being selfish - there were several occasions when he kicked out to someone else to help them get involved in the flow of the game.

I believe I stated: "If Kevin was giving an honest effort on defense, then so be it. If however..."

Strong objections noted.

 

[Eclipse]

I actually enjoyed watching this game. Yay!

Beno put motion back into our offense, and it was a wonderful sight. Brought back nice, fuzzy memories.

Hawes played tough, physical and with authority. And he actually fouled someone - hard. I take back everything I said about him earlier.

Westphal = miracle worker. I'm starting to trust his judgement in lineups and rotations. Proof: I barely batted an eye when he put K9 in (other facial twitches were quickly supressed).

Just a couple of things in the game that made me go hmm...

...such as JT screaming for the ball in the post at critical times late in the game when he wasn't shooting the ball all that well. In fact, badly.

...and Tyreke loitering and sauntering around the 3-point line after crossing the half-court line and passing the ball to Martin. Quite the contrast Beno's fiery and urgent play. (But I blame the ankle - bad ankle!).