First Preseason Game v. Lakers 10/4

Quick observations: Ty Lawson looks promising to me. I know he missed shots and had turnover problems but that's to be expected. What I wanted to see was regaining of his quickness and ability to get to spots. He has some nice juke moves with the ball, split the seams pushed the pace and has burst of speed that makes the defense shift. That's just what we need! And unlike Rondo he's not content to just pound pound pound, he makes the pass and cuts. I think his shot will come and once he gets more comfortable with his new teammates the turnovers will be better under control.

Now onto Papa....UGH. I might have to rescind every promising comment I made. I don't want to read too much into one game, but here's deal, shedding weight (20 pounds, allegedly) should be commensurate with improved reaction time to get off your feet and make plays. This game is also about reaction time and if his reaction time is 1/2 to one beat too slow, its going to be field day out there for the opponent. You know when you get crossed over by T-Rob for a lefty finish and one you are chopped liver in the eyes of the opponent.

But I am going to temper by disappointment and hope a lot of what we saw was just rookie first game jitters and he will gain comfort and confident and show more resistance defensively and aggressiveness offensively. I want to see more bounce to his game, and also use his left hand, and set some mean screens. And about Willie: His offensive game is not where it needs to be, either in execution or aggressiveness. Say what you want about Ben, but Ben is out there to score. If Willie has designs on starting along side Rudy and Boogie, he needs to show more offense.

Last observation: Our high post offense is a beautiful thing. You can tell the players are active and engaged and like to run it. Its not like the BS offense last year when Rondo-Boogie played two-man ball and three guys standing and watching. Might as well as squatted a spot and got a bag of popcorn. The point of attack from the middle of the floor around 15-17 feet creates passing angles all over the floor with options to read and screen and cut. This is a good offense strategically with the players buying in and involved. This can allow us to compete on nights we have a net talent deficit.
 
I liked what Joerger did with playing time for all and particularly the rookies. Looks like the starters did well. On to game #2. Bring them along another step o two.
 
Great game for coaching staff to learn more about our players and particularly the rookies. Helps with lots of decisions down the road. All we want is 13 guys who, together, can win games.
 

gunks

Hall of Famer
Didn't see the game, but it sucks that Trill + rooks had a meh to awful showing. Hopefully they'll improve. WCS was solid last season so I'm not so much worried about him, but you guys are making it sound like Papa is quite the Kings rookie (and by that I mean a terrible pick and a bust).

Maybe Vivek can design an AI robot to scout and make draft decisions. Scoutbot2000!

Sounds like the offense and defense is looking good, at least with the starters. So color me optimistic!
 
Didn't see the game, but it sucks that Trill + rooks had a meh to awful showing. Hopefully they'll improve. WCS was solid last season so I'm not so much worried about him, but you guys are making it sound like Papa is quite the Kings rookie (and by that I mean a terrible pick and a bust).

Maybe Vivek can design an AI robot to scout and make draft decisions. Scoutbot2000!

Sounds like the offense and defense is looking good, at least with the starters. So color me optimistic!
Remember there are 13 veterans on this Kings Squad including WCS. So the Rookies and a couple of vets will see plenty of DNP CD once the season starts.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
I know you guys typically like to see things half empty, but I need a lot more to see if Skal/Bogdanovic are a "sad" return for the players you just mentioned (who have had mixed success) than a preseason game where Chriss also had 6 TOs. Need to see Bogdanovic

How the 13 pick was used is another issue, and I don't think Vlade has proven himself as an overly effective evaluator at this point though
I agree that Bodgdanovic is part of the picture. The jury is still out on Divac's draft prowess. WCS, Bodgdanovik, and this year's draftees, in combination with trading the rights to Marquese Chris, will providence more evidence for the jury to decide.
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
I agree that Bodgdanovic is part of the picture. The jury is still out on Divac's draft prowess. WCS, Bodgdanovik, and this year's draftees, in combination with trading the rights to Marquese Chris, will providence more evidence for the jury to decide.
Trading Chriss doesn't bother me. The fact that Wade Baldwin had a very strong first preseason game does.

Baldwin, Richardson, Labissiere with Bogdanovic coming over would have been a nice draft day haul that fills some holes going forward.
 
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What is up with nba.com's new layout? The box scores are completely unusable. I had to stop using them to look up stats a couple years back due to how bad the layout turned out and now it looks like I'll be finding another site to view box scores.
Right you gotta do the most just to see how many points a guy has. They had it right about 2-3 years ago
 
K

KingsFan80

Guest
Of course he does. How many just-turned-19-year-olds do you know that are ready right out of the gate?
There are tons of them at 19 and 20 when drafted. These guys weren't blowing it out the water their first year but they did contribute and show some future promise. I am not even adding the guys taken in the top 5 who are stars in the league at 19 and 20:

Devin Booker (13th in 2015)
Zach LaVine (13th in 2014)
Giannis Antetokounmpo (15th in 2013)
Myles Turner (11th in 2015)
Stanley Johnson (7th in 2015)
Justise Winslow (10th in 2015)
Elfrid Payton (10th in 2014)
Mudiay

Mudiay could have started right out of the gate for us at age 19 and made an impact. Ugh hurts to think about what could have been.

At some point you all are going to come to the reality that Vlade screwed up. This was a horrible pick. We will be lucky if Papa ever contributes at all. He is really bad.
 
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bajaden

Hall of Famer
Trading Chriss doesn't bother me. The fact that Wade Baldwin had a very strong first preseason game does.

Baldwin, Richardson, Labissiere with Bogdanovic coming over would have been a nice draft day haul that fills some holes going forward.
Yeah, I was hoping for Baldwin when he was still there for us after the trade. He didn't play all that well in summer league, but was OK. Obviously they look at Papagiannis as a long term project, so I guess we can say the jury is still out on him for some time. But he better look like something three years from now, and Baldwin better not look like an all star. All that said, to try and judge any of the current draft picks against one another is ridiculous. We have no idea how any of them are going to look three years from now. One game does not a career make, especially a preseason game.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
There are tons of them at 19 and 20 when drafted. These guys weren't blowing it out the water their first year but they did contribute and show some future promise. I am not even adding the guys taken in the top 5 who are stars in the league at 19 and 20:

Devin Booker (13th in 2015)
Zach LaVine (13th in 2014)
Giannis Antetokounmpo (15th in 2013)
Myles Turner (11th in 2015)
Stanley Johnson (7th in 2015)
Justise Winslow (10th in 2015)
Elfrid Payton (10th in 2014)
Mudiay

Mudiay could have started right out of the gate for us at age 19 and made an impact. Ugh hurts to think about what could have been.

At some point you all are going to come to the reality that Vlade screwed up. This was a horrible pick. We will be lucky if Papa ever contributes at all. He is really bad.
First I don't agree with that all those guys were ready to play right out of the gate. The fact that they did play, doesn't mean they were ready to play. Not to pick on Mudiay, but he struggled this past summer league when matched up against Chris Dunn. He couldn't guard Dunn, who abused him, and couldn't score against Dunn when he had the ball. All those guys you mentioned are talented, but all have flaws that need to be worked on. The jury is still out on Lavine to some extent because of his love for taking bad shots. Don't get me wrong, I love his potential, but he's far from a finished player.

One thing all those guys had going for them is that they defended. Even Booker was a decent to good defender at Kentucky even though he was more known for his offense. The question about most of them is the same question we have about Willie. Can they fill in the rest of their game and become more complete players. For most of them, if I had to venture a guess, it would be yes. Not sure about Mudiay. His shot still looked terrible at summer league, but I don't put a lot of emphasis on summer league.
 
Disagreed with Papa then and disagree now. Baldwin was my guy, he has the physical tools to be a good PG, maybe even better than good. Papa is just .... perhaps he will improve but it will definitely take at least 2 to 3 years.
 
K

KingsFan80

Guest
First I don't agree with that all those guys were ready to play right out of the gate. The fact that they did play, doesn't mean they were ready to play. Not to pick on Mudiay, but he struggled this past summer league when matched up against Chris Dunn. He couldn't guard Dunn, who abused him, and couldn't score against Dunn when he had the ball. All those guys you mentioned are talented, but all have flaws that need to be worked on. The jury is still out on Lavine to some extent because of his love for taking bad shots. Don't get me wrong, I love his potential, but he's far from a finished player.

One thing all those guys had going for them is that they defended. Even Booker was a decent to good defender at Kentucky even though he was more known for his offense. The question about most of them is the same question we have about Willie. Can they fill in the rest of their game and become more complete players. For most of them, if I had to venture a guess, it would be yes. Not sure about Mudiay. His shot still looked terrible at summer league, but I don't put a lot of emphasis on summer league.
They might not have been tearing it up, but they contributed some. The coaches could put them in the game. Winslow averaged 12 points last year. Myles Turner gave some solid minutes. Papa will not play this year, at this point he would get abused by a good college center. We aren't in position to be taking chances on guys who probably won't work out. As many have said, I think this is our last year to prove to Cousins we are ready to win and this was not a step in the right direction.
 
K

KingsFan80

Guest
Disagreed with Papa then and disagree now. Baldwin was my guy, he has the physical tools to be a good PG, maybe even better than good. Papa is just .... perhaps he will improve but it will definitely take at least 2 to 3 years.
If you replace Baldwin with Papa we had a great draft. Skal and Malachi were good picks. Not so sure about Bogdanovic, the Suns knew exactly what they were doing with that deal. I am a diehard Kings fan, but sadly only Kings fans would get excited about a guy playing overseas that might never play in the NBA.
 
Trading Chriss doesn't bother me. The fact that Wade Baldwin had a very strong first preseason game does.

Baldwin, Richardson, Labissiere with Bogdanovic coming over would have been a nice draft day haul that fills some holes going forward.
Im not worried about Chriss either, especially after we got an extended look at Bogdanovic this summer, who looks really, really good. Skal and Malachi both have shown enough has late 1st round picks for me to want to see more.

99% of the time, I'm in the "actually wait for a 2 year game sample size before we can determine what a players ceiling is" but the Papa pick has and will be awful from day 1, really destroying was what a good draft day trade from Vlade. Basically, it comes down to us passing on a quality prospect (Baldwin) at a position of need for drafting a giant project at a position where we are by far the strongest and most secure long-term (Boogie 2 years, Koufos 3 years, WCS 5+years if we want it). Just a complete mistake and misunderstanding of where we actually need help.
 
There are tons of them at 19 and 20 when drafted. These guys weren't blowing it out the water their first year but they did contribute and show some future promise. I am not even adding the guys taken in the top 5 who are stars in the league at 19 and 20:

Devin Booker (13th in 2015)
Zach LaVine (13th in 2014)
Giannis Antetokounmpo (15th in 2013)
Myles Turner (11th in 2015)
Stanley Johnson (7th in 2015)
Justise Winslow (10th in 2015)
Elfrid Payton (10th in 2014)
Mudiay

Mudiay could have started right out of the gate for us at age 19 and made an impact. Ugh hurts to think about what could have been.

At some point you all are going to come to the reality that Vlade screwed up. This was a horrible pick. We will be lucky if Papa ever contributes at all. He is really bad.
Uh, not sure what you watched last year, but Mudiay was essentially one of the worst players in the league last year. Horrible efficiency, turned the ball over way too much, couldn't shoot, struggled defensively, etc. The tools are there of course, but he's not the guy I'm worried we missed out in that draft.
 
sadly only Kings fans would get excited about a guy playing overseas that might never play in the NBA.
Sadly to YOU. And you need to keep up with Kings gossip because you might be the only naysayer suggesting that he'll never come to the NBA. The consensus is that he didn't come this season because it didn't make financial sense due to the rookie scale. However next season he can sign a vet contract with fewer restrictions and more $$. All signs point to him being here next season.
 
There are tons of them at 19 and 20 when drafted. These guys weren't blowing it out the water their first year but they did contribute and show some future promise. I am not even adding the guys taken in the top 5 who are stars in the league at 19 and 20:

Devin Booker (13th in 2015)
Zach LaVine (13th in 2014)
Giannis Antetokounmpo (15th in 2013)
Myles Turner (11th in 2015)
Stanley Johnson (7th in 2015)
Justise Winslow (10th in 2015)
Elfrid Payton (10th in 2014)
Mudiay

Mudiay could have started right out of the gate for us at age 19 and made an impact. Ugh hurts to think about what could have been.

At some point you all are going to come to the reality that Vlade screwed up. This was a horrible pick. We will be lucky if Papa ever contributes at all. He is really bad.
Highly unlikely that we will come that conclusion about Vlade and this draft. He made several moves getting three young prospects at least two at this early time shows of real talent and potential. I wouldn't even give up yet on Papa despite his poor showing these early days. So far I feel very good about Vlade's work this draft. Let's move on to a more salient discussion.
 
K

KingsFan80

Guest
Uh, not sure what you watched last year, but Mudiay was essentially one of the worst players in the league last year. Horrible efficiency, turned the ball over way too much, couldn't shoot, struggled defensively, etc. The tools are there of course, but he's not the guy I'm worried we missed out in that draft.
Uh..the guy was 19. You really think Papa will contribute more than Mudiay did last year? You think WCS had a better year than Mudiay? He was a 19 year old point guard in the NBA, starting and playing 30 minutes a game. Someone else in this thread was trying to argue Papa was 19 and sending him to NBA D League was fine. We are talking about the 13th pick in the NBA draft, not a second round pick. Mudiay was light years better than Papa at 19 years old.

I would take Mudiay over Papa or WCS in a heartbeat. I am a Kentucky fan and watched WCS for three years. Any Kentucky fan could tell you he had major weaknesses, which is why I about croaked when we took him over Mudiay. All of Cal's players go pro after one or two years, very rarely does a player stay three years and make it to the NBA as Kentucky star players are already close to NBA talent when they arrive at Kentucky. If you don't agree show me one Kentucky player under Calipari besides WCS who went to the NBA as a junior and lasted longer than 3 years. Cal recruits two types of players 1) Almost NBA ready talented players and 2) 3-4 year role players. The role players never make it in the NBA or don't last. Mudiay was the number 1 overall high school player coming out of HS and would have been a one year player in college because he is very talented and almost NBA ready, similar to Booker, Knight, Davis, Cousins, Wall, etc. Now this year Vlade takes Papa, ugh. Ok I need a break this gave me a headache.
 
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K

KingsFan80

Guest
Highly unlikely that we will come that conclusion about Vlade and this draft. He made several moves getting three young prospects at least two at this early time shows of real talent and potential. I wouldn't even give up yet on Papa despite his poor showing these early days. So far I feel very good about Vlade's work this draft. Let's move on to a more salient discussion.
I agree he did take some good picks. As I stated, Malachi was a great pick, Skal was a good pick in late 1st round. Who knows if they will ever contribute but they are solid at their pick number
 

CruzDude

Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
Just back from Anaheim and watching game last night. For game 1 preseason, summaries only:
- crisp passing with starters nice to see
- Ben still being Ben
- Koufos starting played well, led early FB with layup for 2
- At 4:30 mark of 1st starters had run at least 4 3-man fast breaks after 3-4 TO's
- Cuz very cool as he was getting mugged most times down court in 1st period.
- Playing 9-man rotation part way into 2nd played very well.
- Then coach played the 4 rookies and Temple for all of the 4th as they continued getting blown out and none seemed to step up. Not sure what he learned doing that other than the 4 Rooks have quite a ways to go. IMHO Skal was over eager but has good game and we should see him in season. Papagiannis should go straight to Reno, now

Next game should see completion of 1st game experiments
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
Yeah, I was hoping for Baldwin when he was still there for us after the trade. He didn't play all that well in summer league, but was OK. Obviously they look at Papagiannis as a long term project, so I guess we can say the jury is still out on him for some time. But he better look like something three years from now, and Baldwin better not look like an all star. All that said, to try and judge any of the current draft picks against one another is ridiculous. We have no idea how any of them are going to look three years from now. One game does not a career make, especially a preseason game.
Baldwin doesn't have to look like an all-star for me to be upset with the Kings for not drafting him.

I liked Baldwin a fair amount this draft and was on the bandwagon early. I loved Dunn, but I liked WB4. And now that I've seen a preview of the stuff Joerger wants to run, I think even more than on draft day that Baldwin would've been a good pick.

His biggest issues are that he's not a true PG/distributor and that he struggles to create the space to attack the rim and struggles to finish once he's there.

But what I saw in the first preseason game is an offense that wouldn't require the PG to break down the defense or be the primary ballhandler/playmaker.

Baldwin could focus on being a 3&D combo guard who plays most of his minutes at the point and I think that's the ideal role for him.

We'll see.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
What does Papa have going for him other than being big? If a guy is a good "project" player he normally has something that would lead one to believe that he will eventually be good. What is there in Papa that would lead Divac to make that determination?
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
What does Papa have going for him other than being big? If a guy is a good "project" player he normally has something that would lead one to believe that he will eventually be good. What is there in Papa that would lead Divac to make that determination?
Reportedly he has a 7'6" wingspan and he moves very fluidly in space for someone his size. Nice hands as well. That's all I've seen and most of that was from old tape. He's looked awful in summer league and the one preseason game. Very mechanical, way too slow in his movements and not a force as a rebounder or defender.
 
If you replace Baldwin with Papa we had a great draft. Skal and Malachi were good picks. Not so sure about Bogdanovic, the Suns knew exactly what they were doing with that deal. I am a diehard Kings fan, but sadly only Kings fans would get excited about a guy playing overseas that might never play in the NBA.
LOL you are deluded, I see you are still sticking with this bizarre position. Bogdanovic will be coming to play in the NBA, there's no doubt about it. It's what his goal is, he has said it many times, he'll definitely be coming over.

You have a lot of totally bizarre viewpoints, but this has to be the most ridiculous one because you continue to pedal it in the face of all evidence.
 

Capt. Factorial

ceterum censeo delendum esse Argentum
Staff member
You think WCS had a better year than Mudiay? He was a 19 year old point guard in the NBA, starting and playing 30 minutes a game.
He was playing 30 minutes a game for a team that was as bad as the Kings record-wise, and worse than the Kings in margin of victory, ORtg and DRtg. Big whoop.

The point is that he played 30 absolutely bone-crushingly brutal minutes. His PER was 9.9. According to Win Shares, he cost his team 2.1 wins (at a WS/48 of -0.049). According to Box Plus/Minus he cost his team 4.3 points per 100 possessions. According to VORP, he was even worse and cost his team 3.2 wins relative to a replacement-level player.

Compare to Willie Cauley-Stein, who only played 20 minutes a game and therefore according to your thinking was not as good as Mudiay. WCS had a PER of 15.3. According to Win Shares he got the Kings 3.8 wins, and his WS/48 was 0.130, which is a good deal better than the average NBA player at 0.100. According to Box Plus/Minus he gained hte Kings 0.7 points per 10 possessions. According to VORP, he was worth 2.7 wins relative to a replacement player.

They played different positions so it's hard to equate them with standard stats and perhaps Mudiay's assist total has blinded you but it's pretty clear that WCS was actually a better than average NBA player in the 20 minutes he played and that Mudiay was quite a good deal worse than a replacement-level player.

So yes, WCS had a better year than Mudiay. By a lot.
 
What does Papa have going for him other than being big? If a guy is a good "project" player he normally has something that would lead one to believe that he will eventually be good. What is there in Papa that would lead Divac to make that determination?
I think his shooting touch may have intrigued. A short while before the draft videos were on his Instagram of him shooting long range with accuracy, and supposedly he showed some of that in pre draft workouts. But I haven't seen that in play at all
 
I think it is time for Vlade to get his hands dirty and get in the gym with Papa and work with the young guy.

If Papa busts, its on Vlade, so it would be in his best interest to get in their and help mold Papa into a real basketball player.